Vigile's Question In Poll Thread

[florduh]

but I still choose to believe

.

When I "chose" to believe, no evidence could sway me either. BTW, one does not leave the religion by "choosing" atheism. It is an inescapable conclusion that is eventually reached by many who sincerely study the Bible. I think one should be compelled by good reasons to hold a particular belief, not just "choose" the default that is most familiar.

 

I would have to say that you would be the one visiting, not me.

Since this is a website for Ex-Christians, it seems to me that the Christian apologists who happen to be allowed into certain forums are the visitors.

[chefranden]

So, the Popes lied. Does that diminish the history of Christianity. Not at all.

 

I was a bit impressed by your essay in this thread, until I read this. What non-sense, you are only trying to fool yourself and all your study is for naught.

[Abiyoyo]

So, the Popes lied. Does that diminish the history of Christianity. Not at all.

 

I was a bit impressed by your essay in this thread, until I read this. What non-sense, you are only trying to fool yourself and all your study is for naught.

 

Richard Nixon allegedly lied, does that diminish the history of the US?

 

For that matter, the government lies all the time, ...should I disown the whole government?

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

I would have to say that you would be the one visiting, not me.

Since this is a website for Ex-Christians, it seems to me that the Christian apologists who happen to be allowed into certain forums are the visitors.

 

Just because I never publicly announced by denouncing of God here, doesn't mean i am the visitor. That is a real careless statement Florduh. Think about it. Reread my post.

[bdp]

I think Jesus fit as the Jewish Messiah.

 

What do you know about Judaism?

 

I know about as much as someone should know about Judaism. But, that isn't the point. Even if I wasn't familiar with Jewish prophecy, then I would still believe in Jesus as the Son of God, the One that was to come and bring hope, be a Light to mankind.

 

Yes it is the point: how can you say 'jesus' was the Jewish messiah if you don't even know what the Jewish messiah was supposed to be? 'jesus' clearly can't have been the Jewish messiah if the Jews are still waiting for the messiah and have rejected any 'jesus' as messiah.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Yes it is the point: how can you say 'jesus' was the Jewish messiah if you don't even know what the Jewish messiah was supposed to be? 'jesus' clearly can't have been the Jewish messiah if the Jews are still waiting for the messiah and have rejected any 'jesus' as messiah.

 

Maybe they just don't like Jesus. I will ask you the same as I ask a Jew. Who should've been the Messiah? Who will be the Messiah? When will this Messiah come?

[bdp]

 

 

Yes it is the point: how can you say 'jesus' was the Jewish messiah if you don't even know what the Jewish messiah was supposed to be? 'jesus' clearly can't have been the Jewish messiah if the Jews are still waiting for the messiah and have rejected any 'jesus' as messiah.

 

Maybe they just don't like Jesus. I will ask you the same as I ask a Jew. Who should've been the Messiah? Who will be the Messiah? When will this Messiah come?

 

Since I take it ALL to be fiction anyway, what's the difference? Jews have been waiting for centuries for their messiah; for you to think you know better than they do is arrogance and I find it to be highly insulting. "...just don't like 'jesus'..." Please.

[oddbird1963]

 

 

Richard Nixon allegedly lied, does that diminish the history of the US?

 

For that matter, the government lies all the time, ...should I disown the whole government?

Actually, Richard Nixon's lie was a turning point for many in their view of the government. The Historical view of the USA here in America used to be much more positive prior to Nixon's lie. Though the events of the 60's put cracks in the rose colored glasses through which many American's viewed U.S. history, Nixon and Watergate forever destroyed the ability of generations to see the U.S. as the defacto "good guy" in the world.

 

Government is looked at with much more skepticism now. The U.S. in history is seen as much more corrupt, self-serving and imperialist post-Watergate than pre-Watergate.

 

So, did Richard Nixon's lie diminish the History of the US? Yes. It did not change the chronological, sequential order of what happened, who wrote what, who built what, who did what. But it did take away the American Myth and replace it with a skeptical view of America's goodness in the world.

 

I think that's what happened with the aforementioned woman who was disillusioned by the behavior of the popes. She lost her illusions and was reluctantly given a healthy skepticism of what she was being told is the history of Christianity.

[Japedo]

 

 

Maybe they just don't like Jesus. I will ask you the same as I ask a Jew. Who should've been the Messiah? Who will be the Messiah? When will this Messiah come?

 

 

If you asked a Jew then you know the answer.

 

In case your statement was for show and you really never asked, I'll enlighten you.

 

According to Jewish Prophecy.

 

There is a potential Messiah every generation, it is up to that person if they choose to take the challenge. The Jewish Messiah (moshiach, which means anointed one) is just a man, a great man like Moses but just a man never the less, he as is human as the rest of us. Anything that has roots in Paganism,or encourages breaking Torah Laws can not be given by the Gawd of Abraham and hence is not the Messiah. A simple research into the founding of the Christian religion (Judaism) exposes the lie for all to see.

 

You can educate yourself all about the Jewish Messiah here.

Moshiach: The Messiah Judaism 101 Link

 

There are 613 Torah laws. Christ and peter both encourage breaking Torah laws, it's a sure tell sign it's a false gawd according to Jewish LAW. The Christ story's are remade Sun/Son worship where a halfgod half human comes to save mankind. Mangods are in just about every pagen religion (derived from the Greek, Roman, and Egyptian cultures) and the Christian church carries their rituals to this day.

 

 

Some simple things you can research on your own. Christ didn't do ONE thing new or original that hadn't been done by the many pagan gods before him. Nothing what-so-ever sets him apart in any way shape or form. Everything from his Birth, Death, Fishing, raising the dead, healing the sick, walking on water, the entire story. Every single thing can be taken from former cults.

 

Rituals, important dates, the whole 9 yards of it.

 

The 12 Deciples following the Son = The 12 signs of the Zodiac Following the Sun

Communion = Pagen cannibalism eating parts of human flesh and drinking blood to become more gawd like.

Easter = Istar a celebration of the fertility god, Rabbits and eggs and Peeps Oh My.....

Christmas= Winter Solstice the new life is born and it is a start of a new Reason for the Season, the New Sun

 

There is more factual evidence that Christ isn't The god of Gods then can be disputed.

 

Be careful what you wish for, one can never unsee something, even if it's opposite then what one sets out to look for. Faith is built on top of a lot of emotion and superstition and fear. With knowledge comes power, hence one of the main reasons any dogma is against science.

[Shyone]

 

Be careful what you wish for, one can never unsee something, even if it's opposite then what one sets out to look for. Faith is built on top of a lot of emotion and superstition and fear. With knowledge comes power, hence one of the main reasons any dogma is against science.

I can testify to this! Amen!

 

I sought the truth, figuring I'd find God, and when it all came together, God was gone.

[oddbird1963]

 

I will say that I think the single most effective thing that caused me to still believe was the history of Christianity. Many here will say that this and that is false, forged, made up, edited by the church, a big conspiracy to gain power, etc. But, the fact is that if the experts of Christianity within Roman history are not true, forged, made up; then society in general has lost a piece of Roman history. One example is in The Annals. Many have said that the reference to Christians in the Annals was forged, but studies from secular historians show that it isn't. That was the authors writing, and the correction was from the author; not by a clergy as speculated from different dates.

 

 

The most the Annals can tell us, assuming the passage is not a forgery, is that there were christians that worshipped a guy called Christ or Chrestus. But this is a small paragraph upon which to base an incredibly far-reaching faith that makes radical claims on people's lives.

 

I'm not sure who you see as "the experts of Christianity within Roman history." Do you mean modern historians who are experts on early Christianity? Or, do you mean experts on Christianity who lived during Roman times? If you mean the latter, how would one be an 'expert of christianity?" They had no colleges of Christian studies back them. There were representitives of christianity - bishops, patrons, etc. And there were contemporary historians, but no one who were specialists on the subject.

 

But whichever group you intended to describe, why does it matter if we lose a piece of Roman history? It might be regretful or disappointing to lose previously accepted historical claims. But, if said experts "are not true . . ." then we need to know that. If they are true, we need to know that too. What you seem to be saying is that you want certain historical claims to be true so badly that you are just going to believe it anyway. I'm not sure that's a sound way to approach history.

 

 

 

Well, you are right. This is something where it can be applied both ways, and the tie breaker is what the other side wants to believe. If you want to believe in God, and that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, then you will go to all lengths to try to understand it, and piece it all together. Same for the other side; but, when the cards come down, the lengths do too. So, even if you spent 20 years searching and researching the prophecies of Christ, if you decide, after whichever factors, that you don't believe in God anymore; then it just becomes meaningless because you see the end result the same as your end result.

 

I on the other hand have straddled that fence as well; but I still choose to believe.

 

I'm not sure this is a valid dichotomy. You seem to be dividing people into "people who want to believe in God," and "the other side" which is presumably "people who want to not believe in God." But there can conceivably be people who want to believe, but not so badly that they will believe without sound evidence. There could be people who don't want to believe, but are open to the possibility of a god or gods but not convinced. There could be people who don't want to believe, but for some reason do believe anyway. Or, there could be people who just want to know the truth. When the subject is God, they want to know the truth about whether or not there is a god. For them, the evidence determines the belief, or maybe a gut feeling about the veracity of the information they are being presented with.

 

There are not just two types of people involved. And their ability to come to conclusions about belief systems are not all governed by what they "want to believe in . . ." in the first place.

 

 

I have heard, debated, and studied this before. But, does that mean that I am going to start coping and pasting sources upon sources to back whatever claim I wish to claim. No. Research yourself.

 

My answer will be debunked, as Apologetic most likely; but really, who's counting, or who really cares for that matter. Should I heighten my answers structure to impress you or anyone else? Why?

 

I think Jesus fit as the Jewish Messiah. Various reasons that I am not willing to go through 20 pages of hashing out, because like you said;

 

I could list hundreds of failed prophecies, but you would not see that they have any bearing on whatever scriptures you might deem to be prophetic.

 

That works both ways you know

 

So, do you mean to say, "I know what I'm talking about, I don't want to discuss it?" When you say, "my answer will be debunked," are you saying that it will actually be debunked, or attempts will be made to debunk it? Because if it is actually debunked and you choose to believe christianity anyway, you are adopting a non-rational approach to belief. If these are what you consider failed attempts to debunk your position, then that would seem to be a valid topic to discuss in this forum.

 

When you say "Should I heighten my answer's structure . . ." do you mean that you are not going to answer people's inquiry's in a way consistent with the content of the question they asked you? This is a puzzling response since this is a forum created for the purpose of discussing subjects like the one you posted. But you don't want to give answers that are supported or clear?

 

Does this mean that you want to merely proclaim your personal testimony to us and let it magically work its way into our hearts?

 

I just thought it was funny that you said, The Old Testament was a lousy source for prophecy about Jesus Did nobody else understand why I thought that was funny?

 

Your question about the OT being a lousy source for prophecy is funny only to one who already assumes the the Old Testament indeed specificially predicted the life of Jesus Christ in particular. This was something that was claimed by NT writers, but does not seem to bear up under scrutiny.

 

 

Which brings me to my earlier question: What OT prophecies do you find particularly convincing as being prophecies about Jesus? Surely, since you studied the matter so closely, you can provide some concrete examples from your perspective.

 

Abiyoyo, I realize that you have done a lot of research and study on an extensive list of subjects related to christianity. But from a lot of what you say, it sounds as if you have entrenched yourself into a particular brand of Christianity that is a self contained subjective belief system with few ties to the real world that are open for critique.

 

With such an approach, any self-contained faith system could be considered "valid" or "viable" with the only requirement for verification being preference.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

With such an approach, any self-contained faith system could be considered "valid" or "viable" with the only requirement for verification being preference.

 

Wow, that was alot of posting in response to me politely saying that I would rather devote my time on something of my current disposition than to rehash a subject that has no one right answer; and would continue on for days.

[bdp]

Wow, that was alot of posting in response to me politely saying that I would rather devote my time on something of my current disposition than to rehash a subject that has no one right answer; and would continue on for days.

 

I'm out of work, I have absolutely nothing better to do.

[oddbird1963]

 

 

With such an approach, any self-contained faith system could be considered "valid" or "viable" with the only requirement for verification being preference.

 

Wow, that was a lot of posting in response to me politely saying that I would rather devote my time on something of my current disposition than to rehash a subject that has no one right answer; and would continue on for days.

 

 

Wow. I didn't pick up on that. I suspect the reason for that is you never said it. Or at least it was such a minor point in all you have said so far that I must have missed where you did say that.

 

But I'm willing to dialog on what you are willing to dialog about. But that is what I did. The points I responded to were points that you raised after commenting on what others said to you.

 

So right now, it's not really clear what you are wanting to talk about. Since I've talked about what you have talked about in this thread, where do we go from here?

 

But one observation: You haven't really responded to anything I've said. Why? Is that a deflection? Because right now, this isn't a dialogue, at least not between you and I. Maybe that is what you want. IDK. But for now, it sounds as if you want to ruminate undisturbed in your self-contained indefensible belief system.

 

OB '63

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

But one observation: You haven't really responded to anything I've said. Why? Is that a deflection? Because right now, this isn't a dialogue, at least not between you and I. Maybe that is what you want. IDK. But for now, it sounds as if you want to ruminate undisturbed in your self-contained indefensible belief system.

 

OB '63

 

The history of Christianity. The literature in other countries history regarding Christians, as well as in other religions. That is what I entailed when I spoke about the history of Christianity being the 'big' thing for me keeping my faith. Israel is still a people. Archaeology of Israel, within other cultures archaeology.

 

The Jewish prophecies is more theology to me than history, and to the most, Jewish history . Many different aspects involved with Jewish prophecies. But, sorry if you feel I have ignored you throughout the thread, I don't really include Jewish debate of prophecy around the parameters of what I pointed out. Maybe the further explanation will help the matters.

[Abiyoyo]

Wow, that was alot of posting in response to me politely saying that I would rather devote my time on something of my current disposition than to rehash a subject that has no one right answer; and would continue on for days.

 

I'm out of work, I have absolutely nothing better to do.

 

Well, sorry to hear that, I am as well. BUT, I am studying other things right now. If you want more info just google Jewish prophecies.

[bdp]

Wow, that was alot of posting in response to me politely saying that I would rather devote my time on something of my current disposition than to rehash a subject that has no one right answer; and would continue on for days.

 

I'm out of work, I have absolutely nothing better to do.

 

Well, sorry to hear that, I am as well. BUT, I am studying other things right now. If you want more info just google Jewish prophecies.

 

Why would I want/need more info?

[NotBlinded]

Damn...that little pokey guy sure did stick in your side didn't it?