The White Throne Judgement

[Guest end3]

Looking a little, you may be right, because it uses the word thanatos for the second death as well. I just have never pictured bringing the physical bodies from the earthly death. I see the form of the body, but not the actual kind you can pinch.

 

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Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

 

So the WTJ criteria are these?....to be burned up as in the consuming fire of God that ends everything or burned up as tormented in hell lake of fire?

[Shyone]

Man, I cannot get into this discussion. It's like a review of a science fiction novel and trying to figure out what someone did to get into the good graces of some alien supreme leader.

 

"First death is the body and second is the soul.." Uh, no, people die, then rot, and our bodies return to dust. What is so hard to understand about that?

Ha. I have to agree. But after dealing with LNC on any level I'm willing take it. My time is free right now so why not? If I start to get busy I'll have to bow out.

 

The hardest part for me is seeing this as a futurist text since I accept a historicist view of all this stuff. This "prophecy" was said and done 2000 years ago.

 

mwc

I don't mean to put a damper on the discussion. I know that such mental masturbation can be quite satisfying, but I can't get into the "correct" frame of mind.

 

Please continue.

[mwc]

Unfortunately, this opens up the discussion of faith vs works. Faith without works is dead, yet I don't believe works alone are the E-ticket. This is kind of why I lean towards this passage being strictly those "not dead in Christ". If the passage had mentioned anything about a relationship with Christ or something to that notion, then I would be more inclined to see these as everybody else except the martyrs. I will however, try to remain open minded

But that's a Pauline idea. Does it also exist here? Otherwise this is going to get really messy trying to sort out what's what.

 

That's it. But the book of life makes that all irrelevant. We'd have to leave the text of Revelation to further explore the books but I don't know if we should bother yet since I don't know if we've really agreed on all these points yet (I'm still in the dark on this "spiritual death" issue and how it's supported).

 

I have been thinking, but I don't know why you think that the book of life makes it all irrelevant. When you have time...

 

20:13 [...]and they were judged every man by his works.

20:15 And if anyone's name was not in the book of life, he went down into the sea of fire.

Simple logic shows why this is:

 

W & !BoL = LoF

W & BoL = !LoF

!W & !BoL = LoF

!W & BoL = !LoF

Hopefully my super cool table is somewhat readable.

 

W is works. & is AND. BoL is Book of Life. LoF is Lake of Fire. And ! is NOT.

 

So the top one in an more friendly way would be having good Works AND NOT being in the Book of Life equals going into the Lake of Fire.

 

The last one would be not having good Works AND being in the Book of Life equals NOT going into the Lake of Fire.

 

By going through all these you can see that if you're not in the Book of Life, no matter how good or bad your works, you go into the lake of fire. If you are judged on your works and you're the greatest of all and you're not in the book of life you go into the lake of fire. You can never make it past verse 20:15. Simply skipping judging on works would have the same effect because you must be in the book of life to continue.

 

Where do see something that supports these to be martyrs? I see the connection, but?

The 144,000 take the "mark" of YHWH. This is about choosing sides. They do now take the "mark" of the beast. These are the group that doesn't worship the beast or take the mark that are mentioned at the top of chapter 20. These are the ones that become priests and reign for the 1000 years.

 

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14:1 And I saw the Lamb on the mountain of Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, marked on their brows with his name and the name of his Father. 2 And a voice from heaven came to my ears, like the sound of great waters, and the sound of loud thunder: and the voice which came to me was like the sound of players, playing on instruments of music. 3 And they made as it seemed a new song before the high seat, and before the four beasts and the rulers: and no man might have knowledge of the song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, even those from the earth whom God has made his for a price. 4 These are they who have not made themselves unclean with women; for they are virgins. These are they who go after the Lamb wherever he goes. These were taken from among men to be the first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth there was no false word, for they are untouched by evil.

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So here are the 144,000 again only now they either have two names on them or a single name that is the the same for two beings (ie. the same name for both the lamb and his father or a name for the lamb and a name for his father) because they were marked with a single name earlier. We can see that they are a special group ("elect" or "ransomed" if you will) that has their own "song" (it's different from the song that was sung earlier in the text). But what we're looking at right now is that they are "virgins" chosen to be the "first fruits." First fruits were consecrated and were "holy."

 

They're not seen again after these verses. We might imply that they played a part later on but it's hard to say for certain.

 

What is known is that they're a special group that are the first fruits and they are specifically mentioned as not taking the mark of the beast. The connection in chapter 20 says that group specifically did not take the mark and so on. They were also martyrs as we seemed to agree upon. So it stands to reason that this group wound up being martyrs. Understand that they could be considered martyrs like the Crusaders were considered martyrs and that they died in battle during a holy war. This seems to be the situation does it not?

 

I don't mind considering that if you have support. I won't put my own prejudice on this until at some time we pass that scripture.

Oh, I imagine it's floating around in the OT somewhere. I'm too lazy to look right now.

 

IMO, Jesus pulls up the souls instead of zombies and brings them to judgement either to live or die forevermore.

The thing is the text doesn't say who is on the throne. At no point in the text does it ever place a "jesus" or "christ" on the throne at all. It does place a lamb on the throne as I recall (I'd have to check) but it's actually not entirely consistent about the throne and who/what is on it. Normally the author shies away from identifying who is on the throne but when they do I believe it is their god that is on it. Not that this stops them from worshiping an angel twice (even after a warning not to).

 

This is where my prejudice enters....and I am afraid I will fall in to the fundy crowd by "following". I have always heard that the resurrected will get "new" bodies. I assumed that for judged to live at the WTJ also.

I have to. I don't suppose this needs to be the case though. It more falls in-line with general beliefs of the day. The "new" bodies (if you research the word "new" when it mentions a "new" heaven and earth) would really mean "new" in the sense of "new to you" or "refurbished." So the "new" Jerusalem isn't brand spanking new but a rebuilt "new" one. It's "new" and possibly not even recognizable (maybe just kind of familiar) because of the changes made during the rebuild but it's not a totally new product. So the "new" is misleading to us. If you want a refurbished "new" body then you're all set but you'll be disappointed if you wanted brand spanking factory new.

 

I can agree mostly at this point.

So we'll leave it for now. You die. If you make it past the book of life "filter" you get your refurbished body.

 

mwc

[Dagan]

There's a lot of Christians that don't believe in the "white throne judgment" and other associated dispensationalist garbage.

 

Studying and rejecting dispensationalism was what started me on the path to rejecting Christianity altogether.

 

Revelation was written at a particular time for a particular people for a particular reason. For us to come along and turn it into secret bible left behind Kirk Cameron codes is just plain arrogant and stupid. And using the last book of the bible to filter all the rest may seem poetic, or clever like the twist ending of an M. Night Shamalyan movie, but that's not the way it was intended.

 

Pretend you're a first-century believer who's never read any of the gospels, maybe one of Paul's letters but grew up with your mind full of Messianic prophecies from Isaiah and the "prophecies" of Daniel, and the recent reign of Antiochus IV in Jerusalem still an open wound to your exiled Jewish pride, and suddenly Revelation starts to make some sense.

 

All that other junk -- white thrones, times, two times and half a time, thousand year reign, pre, post or amillenial -- is made up to justify evengelical seminaries, sell books and keep people in fear, and in church.

 

I beg you, Christians, wake up and look at this stuff with a critical mind. It's not what you've been told.

[mwc]

Pretend you're a first-century believer who's never read any of the gospels, maybe one of Paul's letters but grew up with your mind full of Messianic prophecies from Isaiah and the "prophecies" of Daniel, and the recent reign of Antiochus IV in Jerusalem still an open wound to your exiled Jewish pride, and suddenly Revelation starts to make some sense.

You forgot the book of Ezekiel.

 

mwc