The White Throne Judgement

[Guest end3]

For the longest of time, it was believed that all the people of the world had already had the chance to hear about Christianity, but when explorers found people in other worlds, the theologians had to re-evaluate their position on non believers going to hell. From that, they formulated the idea of the righteous savage who did well enough in life to qualify to enter heaven even though only Christians could.

 

Thank you OG, finally, a decent answer.

This is actually quite interesting. We have theology that is clearly not "revealed" but rather deduced from logic. But why wasn't it revealed? Why wasn't this clearly stated in the Bible (old or new testament). We see, instead, xenophobia and conquest, massacre and slavery.

 

If our beliefs must change to accomodate reality, then perhaps our guide should be reality and not priests that clearly are clueless despite having access to what they feel is the revealed truth of their god.

 

We don't see this same approach mimicked in reality? To what end? Money. They just used different titles other than priest.

[RankStranger]

We don't see this same approach mimicked in reality? To what end? Money. They just used different titles other than priest.

 

That may be true, but it doesn't refute his point in any way.

[Guest end3]

We don't see this same approach mimicked in reality? To what end? Money. They just used different titles other than priest.

 

That may be true, but it doesn't refute his point in any way.

 

I thought it did Isk, I see it as an anti-scheme.

[RankStranger]

I see it as an anti-scheme.

 

And? How does this show Shy's point to be any LESS true?

 

You're simply asserting that others do the same. Maybe they do... I don't care to argue the point.

 

If Christian theology is so clearly revealed, then why must it be deduced via what some call 'logic'? If said theology IS clearly revealed, then why have these deductions and this logic (by professed Christians) changed so radically and so often over the centuries?

[Shyone]

I see it as an anti-scheme.

 

And? How does this show Shy's point to be any LESS true?

 

You're simply asserting that others do the same. Maybe they do... I don't care to argue the point.

 

Why isn't Christian theology clearly revealed? Why must it be deduced via what some call 'logic'? If said theology IS clearly revealed, then why have these deductions and this logic (by professed Christians) changed so radically and so often over the centuries?

You would think they would have deduced that slavery is wrong a lot earlier than they did, but those scriptures kept getting in the way. The OT and NT are full of it. e.g. 1 Timothy 6:1-2

 

You can truly only deduce something that is not mentioned in the bible. Otherwise, the God-Fearing Christian is obligated to follow what is written.

 

There should have been some method to edit the bible. Like WikiBible.

[Guest Davka]

As for Revelations (or the Apocalypse as it's also known) we-ell, the island of Patmos where John was held has a lot of what you'd call "Magic Mushrooms" growing on it. If John as often as not had a belly full of those he may have been describing some of the Lower Astral Hells that are often seen under the influence of psilocybin (the active principle in 'shrooms).

Casey

 

Actually the hallucinogenic mushrooms that grow on the Aegean Islands are not psilocybin at all, but varieties of the Boletus mushroom, which contains muscarine. This is the same chemical found in Amanita Muscaria, the famous red toadstool with the white dots on it featured in Alice in Wonderland.

 

It's actually far more believable that John the Revelator would have eaten a hallucinogenic Boletus variety (such as b. loretus), because not only is there a very similar-looking edible variety (b. erythropus), but the hallucinogenic varieties taste pretty much the same (which is to say, delicious).

 

Psilocybin mushrooms, by contrast, taste horrible. The flavor makes you want to gag - you pretty much have to force the things down. The only reason for eating psilocybin 'shrroms is to get high, while the boletes and amanitas are quite tasty, especially when lightly sauteed in butter.

 

Yes, I speak from experience.

[RankStranger]

We don't see this same approach mimicked in reality? To what end? Money. They just used different titles other than priest.

 

That may be true, but it doesn't refute his point in any way.

 

I thought it did Isk, I see it as an anti-scheme.

 

It's funny- I've seen this strategery often with Christians. Anybody remember BuddyFerris?

 

If they can't refute a point... they simply point out that others do the same or similar. And even though they've stated nothing regarding the TRUTH of the original assertion, they believe that this somehow 'refutes' it.

[Guest end3]

Actually Isk, I kind of liked Buddy, but so no one will be disappointed, let's try again. By "decent", I ment an answer that I assumed was genuine and meaningful to the author.

 

This is actually quite interesting. 1) We have theology that is clearly not "revealed" but rather deduced from logic. 2) But why wasn't it revealed? 3)Why wasn't this clearly stated in the Bible (old or new testament). We see, instead, xenophobia and conquest, massacre and slavery.

 

1) Please give your scriptural reference to this.

2) and 3) What revealed?

 

If our beliefs must change to accomodate reality, then perhaps our guide should be reality and not priests that clearly are clueless despite having access to what they feel is the revealed truth of their god.

 

I don't think our beliefs need to change to fit today's reality, more that they become a congruent understanding with what was actually ment in the bible. In other words, I don't think we have a complete revelation of the understanding of the message. Nor is that the case for reality.

 

Additionally, as I am most likely not as educated as you Isk or Shyone......sometimes I have to read it several times to hopefully get the understanding. Thanks.

[Shyone]

 

This is actually quite interesting. 1) We have theology that is clearly not "revealed" but rather deduced from logic. 2) But why wasn't it revealed? 3)Why wasn't this clearly stated in the Bible (old or new testament). We see, instead, xenophobia and conquest, massacre and slavery.

 

1) Please give your scriptural reference to this.

2) and 3) What revealed?

It is what is not in scripture that has to be made up to make scripture make sense. It is usually found in doctrines, and not all sects agree on doctrines (even those that are scripturally derived).

 

The Roman Catholics have been at this for a long time, and I am most familiar with their extra-biblical theology. Since I doubt that you care about Mary, there isn't any point in detailing how the doctrine of the Assumption and Immaculate Conception came about.

 

Likewise the doctrine of praying to Saints so that they may then pass on the message. (Intercessionary prayer).

 

The Bible doesn't really say what happens to people who have not heard about Jesus, but there have been two doctrines that seek to fill in the blank.

 

First, they are all going to hell. It makes sense if the only way to get there is through belief, right?

 

Second, they will be judged according to the way they lived their lives regardless of belief if they never had the opportunity to know. That is fair, and God is fair, so it makes sense.

 

The church has to pick one (or invent yet another), so...........

 

I won't quote scripture to you, but I could and both of these positions could be justified, but neither is specified.

 

And that's just a small example of how theology is derived rather than revealed.

[Guest end3]

It is what is not in scripture that has to be made up to make scripture make sense. It is usually found in doctrines, and not all sects agree on doctrines (even those that are scripturally derived).

 

What I battle against Shyone is pointing out lack of consideration for the possibilites. The "set" attitude of the population here is reminiscent of Christian fundamentalism. But, you are right, we all have a "take".

 

The Roman Catholics have been at this for a long time, and I am most familiar with their extra-biblical theology. Since I doubt that you care about Mary, there isn't any point in detailing how the doctrine of the Assumption and Immaculate Conception came about.

 

Believe it or not, I have a theory....fire away

 

Likewise the doctrine of praying to Saints so that they may then pass on the message. (Intercessionary prayer).

 

I was always taught that Jesus was the intercessor.

 

The Bible doesn't really say what happens to people who have not heard about Jesus, but there have been two doctrines that seek to fill in the blank.

 

First, they are all going to hell. It makes sense if the only way to get there is through belief, right?

 

Second, they will be judged according to the way they lived their lives regardless of belief if they never had the opportunity to know. That is fair, and God is fair, so it makes sense.

 

The church has to pick one (or invent yet another), so...........

 

Revelation is certainly something. I am of the belief that people that accept Christ will be in the first resurrection for the 1000 years. Then the WTJ will occur for all humanity. But your are right, we don't know.

 

 

And that's just a small example of how theology is derived rather than revealed.

 

Sure, but there are things that I feel have been revealed. A few, yet, they are there.

[RankStranger]

Actually Isk, I kind of liked Buddy, but so no one will be disappointed, let's try again. By "decent", I ment an answer that I assumed was genuine and meaningful to the author.

 

I didn't say that I didn't LIKE him. He seemed like a pretty decent guy- despite the unwarranted arrogance. I was just pointing out a rhetorical technique that he used (and you used and lots of Christians use) that doesn't really address the argument at hand. Simply pointing out that 'other people do it too' doesn't justify the intellectually dishonest doctrines that Christians come up with.

 

Additionally, as I am most likely not as educated as you Isk or Shyone......sometimes I have to read it several times to hopefully get the understanding. Thanks.

 

You might be surprised. I do go to college at night, and have for years. But the only post-secondary education that I can claim right now is an "associates of occupational studies" degree in automotive and industrial mechanics. I hope you don't find my prestigious degree TOO intimidating.

[mwc]

I understand that the White Throne Judgement mentioned in Revelation is for the non-believing, general population. Now, if there is a judgement, then there would be the possibility for life or death.

 

So, how can this be that everyone that does not believe in Christ goes to hell?

Why didn't you like my answer? It was a good answer. But you don't seem to want to discuss this...

 

I'll try again. I'll go the boring route. I'm just going with a plain old reading of the text.

 

20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Pre-judgment. These guys get tossed into the lake of fire (LOF). They burn forever.

 

20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

Judgment. Where does it take place if heaven and earth run away? Limbo? The LOF must still be around too.

 

20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

A bunch of dead people are all there. Some books are opened. And then some other book (the book of life) gets opened. All these dead people get judged by their deeds.

 

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

After those dead people are judged by their works the sea (WHICH SEA? THE EARTH HAS LEFT) gives up its dead people. Then death and hades give up their dead. So more dead people now get judged by their deeds.

 

20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Now both death and hades get tossed into the LOF. I guess they were judged? Who knows. They're empty. Do they burn up? If they do then why doesn't anything else? Oddly enough death is put into the LOF which is the second death? The death of death is death? For what? Death? Does death die? That's what it seems to say. If death is no more then what is the second death? If the first death was essentially sleep, to be resurrected and judged, then the second death must be destruction, right? The ultimate death. Not everlasting life even with the added torment. It would appear we should understand the judgment as landing a person in destruction. But for some reason it continues.

 

20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now AFTER everyone is JUDGED by their deeds they get checked against this book. The one that gets a special mention. If they aren't in here then they go into the LOF. So a person gets "judged" but that doesn't matter because your name MUST be in this book to avoid the LOF.

 

So why judge anyone at all? If no one can ever be justified by works then all those dead people (which will be all people) will be judged "guilty." It will be billions, if not trillions, of guilty verdicts after the other. Then, emtpying death and hades, doing it some more, then putting death and hades into the LOF. All for show? It seems like it. Then, finally, reading the REAL book. The only one that matters. The one that really decides the fate of those who are there. Ultimately tossing those not in the book in the LOF. Do they burn up? Who knows. It doesn't say.

 

21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Here we have the list of people that get tossed in the LOF. Why does it not say "All those who are not in the book of life." That's exactly what it says in 20:15. But it actually has a list of DEEDS that will cause a person to go into the LOF and the second death.

 

21:27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

This is who is allowed into the "new" city. Oddly enough these people should all be in the LOF by now. But They're being enumerated again.

 

22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

 

22:15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

And once more. The judgment is long over. These are the people that can come into the city and those that cannot. The judgment isn't what xians think it is. The "bad" people are still around after the judgment day. They just can't go into the special city. This is really the inverse of what happened when Rome banned the Jews from going into Jerusalem (or Rome even). It will be the special city and only the special people will be allowed in. Everyone else will have to look from afar.

 

Anyhow, the short version is the dead show up, get judged on their works which doesn't really matter, since they must then be in the book of life. If you're not in the book of life you go in the lake of fire. If you are in the book of life you may go into the "new" city. The second death is the LOF but whether or not you must endure eternal torment is ambiguous and based on what happens to the "devil" who is put in there pre-judgment since no mention of what happens to items put in there as of the actual judgment is mentioned in the text. Since "death" must "give up" people to be judged (ie. this must be related to the "first" death) then the second death must be similar and since "death" is generally considered by the bible to be like other ancient beliefs and be like "sleep" then the second death must also be like sleep (ie. eternal destruction or obliteration) and not eternal life.

 

So the question is how does one get into the book of life since that, despite what other passages say, is the only determining factor in avoiding the LOF?

 

13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

...

17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come .

Seems election is in play here.

 

But something else is going on a little earlier:

3:1 "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

 

3:2 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.

 

3:3 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

 

3:4'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

 

3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels .

Your name is written in the book but can be erased. So is everyone's name in the book by default and you effectively do things to get yourself "erased?" That seems odd. That would be an opt-out system but nothing indicates that "salvation" is opt-out at all but rather opt-in. So it would seem that these people, by virtue of being believers, are in the book but are in danger of losing that status. Hope their "deeds" (and not "beliefs") didn't get them removed. Seems deeds speak pretty loudly since that can effect your status in the book. "Faith" isn't even mentioned here (as in "I know your hearts/minds..." or "I know you really have have a lot of faith in me and all but...").

 

So the final answer to your question would be that everyone who goes into the LOF does so because they aren't in the book of life. Names are in the book of life from the time the world began AND a name can be erased from the book of life for certain deeds. The criteria for a given name being in the book of life does NOT appear to be given. Some criteria is given for deeds that will place someone into the second death, including unbelief, but since having your name in the book of life trumps that it makes those items irrelevant. Belief therefore does not appear to play any role in being placed into the LOF but simple pre-destination.

 

Now, are you going to answer my questions?

 

mwc

[bdp]

 

You can truly only deduce something that is not mentioned in the bible. Otherwise, the God-Fearing Christian is obligated to follow what is written.

 

 

And this was one big clue to me that it was time to let it go - having to explain how the bible said things it really didn't, or that it really didn't say things that it clearly did.

[Abiyoyo]

 

So the final answer to your question would be that everyone who goes into the LOF does so because they aren't in the book of life. Names are in the book of life from the time the world began AND a name can be erased from the book of life for certain deeds. The criteria for a given name being in the book of life does NOT appear to be given. Some criteria is given for deeds that will place someone into the second death, including unbelief, but since having your name in the book of life trumps that it makes those items irrelevant. Belief therefore does not appear to play any role in being placed into the LOF but simple pre-destination.

 

Now, are you going to answer my questions?

 

mwc

 

If one confesses Christ before men, then He will confess us before God and the heavenly hosts.

 

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

 

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

 

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

Lu 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

[Ouroboros]

If one confesses Christ before men, then He will confess us before God and the heavenly hosts.

...

Lu 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Don't you find that kind of process a bit strange? If you would talk and confess alone, lets say in your closet, wouldn't the angels, heaven, and God hear you anyway? God can only hear you if someone else hears you confess?

[Guest Davka]

So the final answer to your question would be that everyone who goes into the LOF does so because they aren't in the book of life. Names are in the book of life from the time the world began AND a name can be erased from the book of life for certain deeds. The criteria for a given name being in the book of life does NOT appear to be given. Some criteria is given for deeds that will place someone into the second death, including unbelief, but since having your name in the book of life trumps that it makes those items irrelevant. Belief therefore does not appear to play any role in being placed into the LOF but simple pre-destination.

 

Now, are you going to answer my questions?

 

mwc

 

If one confesses Christ before men, then He will confess us before God and the heavenly hosts.

 

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

 

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

 

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

Lu 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

 

All you've done here is find a list of verses which contradict the account in Revelation. Here's Jesus himself telling us that salvation depends on what we do:

 

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. Allthe nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate thepeople one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from thegoats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Thenthe King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed bymy Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you sincethe creation of the world. ForI was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and yougave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

 

"Thenthe righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry andfeed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

 

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 

"Thenhe will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed,into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, Iwas a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and youdid not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look afterme.'

 

"Theyalso will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or astranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not helpyou?'

 

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

 

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

Matthew 25: 31-46

 

What is the distinction between the unrighteous (who are damned) and the righteous (who are given eternal life)? What they DID or DID NOT DO.

 

i.e. works.

 

So here we have the Bible contradicting itself yet again on this subject. In fact, here we have Jesus contradicting himself.

 

The only way to reconcile the faith v. works question of salvation is to ignore what the Bible actually says and attempt to force it to say something else. You have to start with the pre-supposition that the Bible is not self-contradictory and work from there, attempting to reconcile these contradictory verses, in order to arrive at anything other than total confusion. But the end result is illogical and more to the point, unBiblical.

 

The entire Bible is a mish-mash of utterly contradictory statements. Only if you assume it is the "Word of God" and therefore must make sense will you even try to force it to present a single, coherent message. Any outside observer will see the contradictions at once. The Christian is left trying to explain why the Bible does not really mean what it says.

[Abiyoyo]

If one confesses Christ before men, then He will confess us before God and the heavenly hosts.

...

Lu 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Don't you find that kind of process a bit strange? If you would talk and confess alone, lets say in your closet, wouldn't the angels, heaven, and God hear you anyway? God can only hear you if someone else hears you confess?

 

I would assume, Jesus being in a kingship role in heaven, appointed by God, would confess us to the father, in return for us confessing Him to mankind. I believe Jesus is God's Son whom He was pleased. I believe God will let Him have His own that believe in Him, and I believe that those that believe that God sent Him, and believe in Christ, believe in the Father, but also not saying that there are those that believe in the father that don't believe in Jesus. I don't see it as requirement, but more of the obvious option, that was written to be then interpreted as required.

 

I do believe Jesus id the buffer between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Judaism still holds the OT God, which could be deadly and harmful to others; look at the Holy Land for example. Wars on top of wars, all for the goodness of God, and which brother received the 'blessing'. Islam is no better, having Mohammad as there proprietor. The point is that these two major religions have been warring for decades, because war is their salute, their pride, their history, and culture.

 

Yes, Christianity has caused wars as well, yet the is an aspect of Christianity through Jesus Christ, that is not geared toward war, but toward philosophy and ethics. Jesus said, If a person convinces you to go a mile with them, go two. If a person slaps you on the cheek, give them the other side to slap. Correct me if I am wrong here, but if Christians really followed the words of Christ, we would all be monks

 

I don't believe Jesus is God, but of the essence of the One True God, and has been given authority and dominion by God, over those that confess Him as God's Son, and that follow Him in faith and righteousness.

[Guest Davka]

Yes, Christianity has caused wars as well, yet the is an aspect of Christianity through Jesus Christ, that is not geared toward war, but toward philosophy and ethics. Jesus said, If a person convinces you to go a mile with them, go two. If a person slaps you on the cheek, give them the other side to slap. Correct me if I am wrong here, but if Christians really followed the words of Christ, we would all be monks

 

Not really monks - more like saints. The Church would be full of Mother Theresas.

 

But it isn't, because Christianity doesn't really change people any more than any other religious or philosophical discipline. That is not to say that it doesn't do any good, because I think it does. But Christians aren't any more selfless than Buddhists or Hare Krishnas or Muslims or even 12-steppers. The fruit that the world is supposed to see simply isn't there, and never has been.

[Abiyoyo]

So the final answer to your question would be that everyone who goes into the LOF does so because they aren't in the book of life. Names are in the book of life from the time the world began AND a name can be erased from the book of life for certain deeds. The criteria for a given name being in the book of life does NOT appear to be given. Some criteria is given for deeds that will place someone into the second death, including unbelief, but since having your name in the book of life trumps that it makes those items irrelevant. Belief therefore does not appear to play any role in being placed into the LOF but simple pre-destination.

 

Now, are you going to answer my questions?

 

mwc

 

If one confesses Christ before men, then He will confess us before God and the heavenly hosts.

 

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

 

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

 

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

Lu 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

 

All you've done here is find a list of verses which contradict the account in Revelation. Here's Jesus himself telling us that salvation depends on what we do:

 

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. Allthe nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate thepeople one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from thegoats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Thenthe King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed bymy Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you sincethe creation of the world. ForI was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and yougave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

 

"Thenthe righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry andfeed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

 

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 

"Thenhe will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed,into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, Iwas a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and youdid not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look afterme.'

 

"Theyalso will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or astranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not helpyou?'

 

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

 

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

Matthew 25: 31-46

 

What is the distinction between the unrighteous (who are damned) and the righteous (who are given eternal life)? What they DID or DID NOT DO.

 

i.e. works.

 

So here we have the Bible contradicting itself yet again on this subject. In fact, here we have Jesus contradicting himself.

 

 

I have to disagree with you here. If you truly followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, not denominational practices; but the words of Christ, I would suspect that you would be willing to help any person that you come across, in need, hence you would be on the good side of this story. Sure, people will take advantage of that, and yes this logic is really irrational in modern society, but, Is it? Have you ever taken advantage of someone, portrayed yourself as someone in need, but were really just fine? Have you ever done this and someone answered that need? A person would have to truly be disordered to take advantage of people this way everyday, and be okay with it; especially people that would give someone in need anything they felt said they needed. It really is just common ethics by today's standards.

 

The bigger question of this scripture is, In what way does someone confess Christ? By the simple spoken word to someone else? Or by their actions? Someone can go to church, lead the praise team, pray at every meal, read their Bible three times a day, post Christian tidbits everywhere, flare up their vehicle, play Jesus in the church Christmas play, .....and still walk right past someone that is in need and asking you to help them.

[Ouroboros]

Thanks for you answer, but I'm not sure it really did answer my question.

 

The verses kind of indicate that confessing in public is a requirement for God to hear the confession. It's a bit unclear in the verses.

 

And also, another observation I have is that they don't talk about "belief", but only about confession. It doesn't make a difference between a false confession and a true one, perhaps the authors were a little fast-n-loose in their declarations.

 

I don't believe Jesus is God, but of the essence of the One True God, and has been given authority and dominion by God, over those that confess Him as God's Son, and that follow Him in faith and righteousness.

And in my view, we are all the essence of "God." Not even of the essence, but really, we are the essence.

[Abiyoyo]

Yes, Christianity has caused wars as well, yet the is an aspect of Christianity through Jesus Christ, that is not geared toward war, but toward philosophy and ethics. Jesus said, If a person convinces you to go a mile with them, go two. If a person slaps you on the cheek, give them the other side to slap. Correct me if I am wrong here, but if Christians really followed the words of Christ, we would all be monks

 

Not really monks - more like saints. The Church would be full of Mother Theresas.

 

But it isn't, because Christianity doesn't really change people any more than any other religious or philosophical discipline. That is not to say that it doesn't do any good, because I think it does. But Christians aren't any more selfless than Buddhists or Hare Krishnas or Muslims or even 12-steppers. The fruit that the world is supposed to see simply isn't there, and never has been.

 

To say that there are not Christian based organizations that help people in need, in great effects throughout this country and the world is just a truly asinine perception.

[Legion]

Hey Abiyoyo, I hope you are doing well.

 

To say that there are not Christian based organizations that help people in need, in great effects throughout this country and the world is just a truly asinine perception.

I don’t believe that’s what he was saying. I think he was just saying that Christianity is not the only banner under which people gather in order to help people in need.

[Abiyoyo]

 

Thanks for you answer, but I'm not sure it really did answer my question.

 

I read the question as, Why would Jesus hear us if they are one, hence shouldn't God already hear us confess? That is my reason for the rest of the writing on my last post; to explain in my view of why one would need to confess publicly Christ; because God has given Him dominion and authority for this world, and God has given Him His own people. People, that if they believed in Christ, would also believe in the Father that sent Him, hence making them righteous unto God, or worthy, or able to be confessed to the Father, as Christ's, when He Judges the world.

[Abiyoyo]

Hey Abiyoyo, I hope you are doing well.

 

To say that there are not Christian based organizations that help people in need, in great effects throughout this country and the world is just a truly asinine perception.

I don’t believe that’s what he was saying. I think he was just saying that Christianity is not the only banner under which people gather in order to help people in need.

 

Hey legion

 

Okay, I will take your word on it

[Abiyoyo]

The fruit that the world is supposed to see simply isn't there, and never has been.

 

I agree.