2012 And Christianity

[Shyone]

 

Isn't prophecy something like fortune telling and of-the-devil anyway? That's supposed to be a no-no. Or, are there exceptions to that too?

 

Oh, by the way, welcome!

Good question. I think the old testament distinguished between prophets and seers, although there was some overlap. Prophets were "warners" while seers were "fortune tellers". Both had visions of the future.

 

I'm not near a bible at the moment, but I seem to recall some King (of Israel, Judah?) that got together 400 seers. There was a prophet there as well.

 

Maybe the difference is that the prophets wrote the books and made themselves look good.

 

And glad to be here...!

[Shyone]

And did you ever think that once you discovered the mechanism for supernatural communication, that it falls right back in the natural set? Do you think that is why death is involved in the story? Must be another fluke. Those myth writers don't know as much as we do now....

Here is something interesting: there are technologies evolving as we speak to communicate without words, and just to do it with thought instead. A point here: technologies, as in scientific research and experiments. No joke. There will be soundless, keyboardless, direct thought communication in the future.

It's already being done. I watched a TV special on brain reading, and Steven Hawkings uses it! Letters flash on a screen and when the correct letter is flashed, the person thinks "That one!" and the letter goes to memory. This is repeated until one has a word, then a sentence, etc. This same technology can be used to allow people to pick things up. It is working experimentally, but isn't ready for prime time.

 

[begin sarcasm]

The Scientologists have one too I hear. It reads spiritual impediments of past experiences or something.

 

"Out, Out! damned Thetan!" To paraphrase Shakespeare.

[/sarcasm]

[Ouroboros]

It's already being done. I watched a TV special on brain reading, and Steven Hawkings uses it! Letters flash on a screen and when the correct letter is flashed, the person thinks "That one!" and the letter goes to memory. This is repeated until one has a word, then a sentence, etc. This same technology can be used to allow people to pick things up. It is working experimentally, but isn't ready for prime time.

Exactly. I thought they were still just developing these things, but it seems they're already in production.

 

What is still missing is to receive directly too.

 

There are also new technique of sub-vocal communication, which anyone could be trained to do. It's some kind of apparatus connected to your throat, and you can speak anywhere without being heard. Somthin' like that. I only saw the header part of the article. (Searching...) Sure thing, it's called a sub-vocalization microphone.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

I know the thought technology is already up to use computers purely through electronic stimulation in the brain. Even monkeys can do it. I think it is really cool that this stuff is being developed. Next up - teleportation and levitation! Science FTW!

[Guest end3]

Just because something is natural it doesn't mean "we knew it all along." It's more like this: whatever we don't know is presented as evidence for non-natural phenomena by the believer, until the facts are on the table and it's proven to be natural and the believer still keeps on believing it's out of the world. It's a delusional attitude. Wake up.

 

Got to ask a question Hans.....you said my analogy characterized a delusional attitude. Are you saying since I made an analogy to us being Godlike in relationship to an ant farm, that you consider even the analogy delusional? Is it too much for you to even consider abstract relationships in your view of the world and universe? Has your search for rational rendered you to that level of black and white? Just checking.

[Ouroboros]

Got to ask a question Hans.....you said my analogy characterized a delusional attitude.

Nope. I didn't say that, I said: "whatever we don't know is presented as evidence for non-natural phenomena by the believer, until the facts are on the table and it's proven to be natural and the believer still keeps on believing it's out of the world. It's a delusional attitude."

 

Let me rephrase that. Lets make it simple:

 

1) we observe something out of the ordinary

2) we can't explain that thing we observed

3) we assume it is supernatural

4) science explains it to be natural

5) we continue to believe it is supernatural, contrary to the evidence

=> That is a delusional attitude.

 

To be delusional is when a person believes something to be supernatural, when the facts prove they are natural.

 

 

Are you saying since I made an analogy to us being Godlike in relationship to an ant farm, that you consider even the analogy delusional?

Nope. The ants would be delusional to think that we are supernatural gods with infinite powers. We have powers. But we are natural, and not supernatural. We don't have infinite powers. But since the ants can't explain what we are, they assume something about us, which is wrong. And if the scientist ants prove humans are just another form of species, but higher evolved, the religious ants are delusional to continue to believe humans are supernatural.

 

Is it too much for you to even consider abstract relationships in your view of the world and universe? Has your search for rational rendered you to that level of black and white? Just checking.

Nope. I keep an open mind to "supernatural" and out of the other stuff. Actually, I would LOVE to see a miracle, a true miracle. I actually would LOVE to see a ghost for real. I would LOVE to see someone levitate without strings or tricks. But my problem is that I can most of the time see through the magical tricks. I'm too rational. But still, I WANT YOUR GOD TO SHOW A MIRACLE. But he won't, because he can't be tested. That's the Biblical and Christian apologist answer.

 

So bring it on. Give me a real magical miracle from God. I'm waiting.

[Guest end3]

Let me rephrase that. Lets make it simple:

 

1) we observe something out of the ordinary

2) we can't explain that thing we observed

3) we assume it is supernatural

4) science explains it to be natural

5) we continue to believe it is supernatural, contrary to the evidence

=> That is a delusional attitude.

 

To be delusional is when a person believes something to be supernatural, when the facts prove they are natural.

 

But here's the point and please consider this as I am not trying to be argumentative (this time). The origin would yield a definitive answer. Even if 3) science explains it to be natural, heck anything science explains period is natural. The origin of the universe could be supernatural. Damn, I am having a hard time explaining this.

 

If we can explain it, we label it natural. This doesn't mean that it might have a supernatural origin. The set of human experience is smaller than is the "edge of the universe". As it becomes known to us, then it becomes part of the natural set, but there is never a limit to the supernatural set.

 

So how is it that we can label anyone truly delusional?

[Ouroboros]

But here's the point and please consider this as I am not trying to be argumentative (this time). The origin would yield a definitive answer. Even if 3) science explains it to be natural, heck anything science explains period is natural. The origin of the universe could be supernatural. Damn, I am having a hard time explaining this.

 

If we can explain it, we label it natural. This doesn't mean that it might have a supernatural origin. The set of human experience is smaller than is the "edge of the universe". As it becomes known to us, then it becomes part of the natural set, but there is never a limit to the supernatural set.

 

So how is it that we can label anyone truly delusional?

Actually I think I might understand what you're saying, let me rephrase it in my words and throw it back at you, and see if you can confirm it:

 

When a natural even occurs, and the scientists even go down to the macroscopic level, quantum level, braided space and superstring, still, somewhere behind the scene to all those events, there is a supernatural force which controls and move these things according to rules and laws outside our universe.

 

Something like that?

[Guest end3]

But here's the point and please consider this as I am not trying to be argumentative (this time). The origin would yield a definitive answer. Even if 3) science explains it to be natural, heck anything science explains period is natural. The origin of the universe could be supernatural. Damn, I am having a hard time explaining this.

 

If we can explain it, we label it natural. This doesn't mean that it might have a supernatural origin. The set of human experience is smaller than is the "edge of the universe". As it becomes known to us, then it becomes part of the natural set, but there is never a limit to the supernatural set.

 

So how is it that we can label anyone truly delusional?

Actually I think I might understand what you're saying, let me rephrase it in my words and throw it back at you, and see if you can confirm it:

 

When a natural even occurs, and the scientists even go down to the macroscopic level, quantum level, braided space and superstring, still, somewhere behind the scene to all those events, there is a supernatural force which controls and move these things according to rules and laws outside our universe.

 

Something like that?

 

Yep, you got it. Thanks

[Shyone]

 

Actually I think I might understand what you're saying, let me rephrase it in my words and throw it back at you, and see if you can confirm it:

 

When a natural even occurs, and the scientists even go down to the macroscopic level, quantum level, braided space and superstring, still, somewhere behind the scene to all those events, there is a supernatural force which controls and move these things according to rules and laws outside our universe.

 

Something like that?

 

Yep, you got it. Thanks

Wouldn't the better term be "unexplained" instead of "supernatural"?

[Ouroboros]

Yep, you got it. Thanks

Great.

 

Then my thought is, without trying to be difficult here, how would we ever know if this was true? If we can't measure it, and test it, and prove it with science (in other words, we can't KNOW for sure), then it boils down to just believing it is so, right? Where science ends, belief begins. Does that make sense?

[Shyone]

Yep, you got it. Thanks

Great.

 

Then my thought is, without trying to be difficult here, how would we ever know if this was true? If we can't measure it, and test it, and prove it with science (in other words, we can't KNOW for sure), then it boils down to just believing it is so, right? Where science ends, belief begins. Does that make sense?

Pardon me for insinuating myself, but it occurred to me that one could have natural predictions that failed suggesting that there was some additional force involved in some atomic or subatomic interaction.

 

For example, take apart a proton or neutron, measure the mass of each particle, measure the forces, calculate the mass and forces and if the calculation doesn't match the reality, then something "else" is involved.

 

I still think it would simply be an unexplained phenomenon.

[Cousin Ricky]

Is it just me, or does the Mayan activity around the prescribed 2012 date sound similar to the Bible's Revelations?

 

What are your thoughts?

I don't know the specifics of 2012, nor am I inclined to try to find out. But my understanding is that 2012 is the Mayan equivalent of our Y2K bug. In other words, it's nothing more than the Mayan "odometer" resetting back to zero. As you know, we got through Y2K by fixing the shortsighted computer programs. Likewise, we can fix the Mayan "problem" by ignoring it. Mark 13:32 appears to be the appropriate Christian reference.

[dagnarus]

Going back a few posts....you are saying little. It's like ants in an ant farm. Someone sets up the ant farm, but everthing from the ants perspective and all the properties within are "natural" to the ants. And when the ants discover the ant farm properties......"See, we knew it all along"......Wow.

Just because something is natural it doesn't mean "we knew it all along." It's more like this: whatever we don't know is presented as evidence for non-natural phenomena by the believer, until the facts are on the table and it's proven to be natural and the believer still keeps on believing it's out of the world. It's a delusional attitude. Wake up.

 

In your view, we are supernatural in relationship to the ants.

 

So, then, ...the scientific will soon levy out the supernatural completely? What about prophecy?

 

Like how Isaiah 13 prophecies that God would send the Medes to destroy Babylon. At which time

15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through;

all who are caught will fall by the sword.

 

16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;

their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.

 

and

20 She will never be inhabited

or lived in through all generations;

no Arab will pitch his tent there,

no shepherd will rest his flocks there.

 

This of course was all miraculously fulfilled when the Persians took over the City, with little to no bloodshed ... Wait a minute

 

Although Babylon did indeed become uninhabited. About 400 years later.

[Cousin Ricky]

The only annoying thing was that they made the entire IT team come in on New Year's Day, 2000.

Yeah, they made me and my coworkers come in, too. So we did our rigorous testing for a grueling 5 minutes or so, then went home.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

So bring it on. Give me a real magical miracle from God. I'm waiting.

 

Who ever said He was a magician

[Abiyoyo]

 

I don't know the specifics of 2012, nor am I inclined to try to find out. But my understanding is that 2012 is the Mayan equivalent of our Y2K bug. In other words, it's nothing more than the Mayan "odometer" resetting back to zero. As you know, we got through Y2K by fixing the shortsighted computer programs. Likewise, we can fix the Mayan "problem" by ignoring it. Mark 13:32 appears to be the appropriate Christian reference.

 

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I was referring more toward the Christians, beginning of the end or tribulations, as to the Mayans reset of creation prophecy similarities.

[Ouroboros]

 

 

So bring it on. Give me a real magical miracle from God. I'm waiting.

 

Who ever said He was a magician

Isn't magic supernatural?

 

What is the difference between a magical miracle and a supernatural miracle?

 

Or are you just thinking of the difference between magic (illusion) and magick (supernatural)?

 

What is the difference to you between these concepts? Is "magick" the same as the "Devil's doings" and "supernatural" the same as "God's doings?"

[Ouroboros]

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I was referring more toward the Christians, beginning of the end or tribulations, as to the Mayans reset of creation prophecy similarities.

I suddenly thought of something, how about if it is possible that there were some astrologers during the time of John (who supposedly wrote Revelation) and he had the understanding of a similar calendar? How about if the Maya calendar existed through some secret tradition through out the world during that time, and John had the same time for the end? (Purely speculative thinking here, of course)

[Guest end3]

Yep, you got it. Thanks

Great.

 

Then my thought is, without trying to be difficult here, how would we ever know if this was true? If we can't measure it, and test it, and prove it with science (in other words, we can't KNOW for sure), then it boils down to just believing it is so, right? Where science ends, belief begins. Does that make sense?

 

I think to some degree we still weight a decision regardless. I guess we just have to do what we think is best for us and the others around us.

[Ouroboros]

I think to some degree we still weight a decision regardless. I guess we just have to do what we think is best for us and the others around us.

Sure.

[Shyone]

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I was referring more toward the Christians, beginning of the end or tribulations, as to the Mayans reset of creation prophecy similarities.

I suddenly thought of something, how about if it is possible that there were some astrologers during the time of John (who supposedly wrote Revelation) and he had the understanding of a similar calendar? How about if the Maya calendar existed through some secret tradition through out the world during that time, and John had the same time for the end? (Purely speculative thinking here, of course)

I think unlikely. The Mayan Calendar had an arbitrary starting point (Mayan mythology ascribes a date of about August 11, 3114 BC as the date of creation), and the ending point is strictly a mathematically derived point in base 20. There was a 260 day ceremonial calendar (based on the numbers 13 and 20 which were sacred to the Mayans) and a 365 day annual calendar, and this repeated every 52 years. There was only room for 5+2 digits on inscriptions, so it is essentially a Y2K problem.

 

If you don't like the cycle coming to an end in 2012, blame the god Itzamna who created the calendar according to the Popol Vuh.

[Abiyoyo]

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I was referring more toward the Christians, beginning of the end or tribulations, as to the Mayans reset of creation prophecy similarities.

I suddenly thought of something, how about if it is possible that there were some astrologers during the time of John (who supposedly wrote Revelation) and he had the understanding of a similar calendar? How about if the Maya calendar existed through some secret tradition through out the world during that time, and John had the same time for the end? (Purely speculative thinking here, of course)

 

Then John would've had the same time frame in mind. Secret tradition? Last I checked, that would be quite a trip over to the Mayan populations from Jesus land. Hans, that would change world history all together if true, let alone Christian theology. That would be the discovery of mankind...

 

It seems that the Mayans where more focused on the numerics of the events rather than the 'status' of the events, as was the Christians. Mayans had certain multiplications and tables they used from the Sun God that ordered there dating. I am not a Mayan expert or anything, and if anyone here is more learned with them and can offer more info, then I'm all ears.

 

With my simple knowledge of the process from the Mayan prophecy, and the knowledge of the structure of the Christian Gods return; I find it interesting.

[Abiyoyo]

 

Isn't magic supernatural?

 

What is the difference between a magical miracle and a supernatural miracle?

 

Or are you just thinking of the difference between magic (illusion) and magick (supernatural)?

 

What is the difference to you between these concepts? Is "magick" the same as the "Devil's doings" and "supernatural" the same as "God's doings?"

 

Well, depends on how you define magic. Basically, I see you more saying, If God is real, then He should give a 'supernatural' sign. Right?

[Abiyoyo]

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I was referring more toward the Christians, beginning of the end or tribulations, as to the Mayans reset of creation prophecy similarities.

I suddenly thought of something, how about if it is possible that there were some astrologers during the time of John (who supposedly wrote Revelation) and he had the understanding of a similar calendar? How about if the Maya calendar existed through some secret tradition through out the world during that time, and John had the same time for the end? (Purely speculative thinking here, of course)

I think unlikely. The Mayan Calendar had an arbitrary starting point (Mayan mythology ascribes a date of about August 11, 3114 BC as the date of creation), and the ending point is strictly a mathematically derived point in base 20. There was a 260 day ceremonial calendar (based on the numbers 13 and 20 which were sacred to the Mayans) and a 365 day annual calendar, and this repeated every 52 years. There was only room for 5+2 digits on inscriptions, so it is essentially a Y2K problem.

 

If you don't like the cycle coming to an end in 2012, blame the god Itzamna who created the calendar according to the Popol Vuh.

 

Thanks for the info, I actually read this info when reading. I have another thought.

 

For a minute, take away our scientific dating methods, evolution, etc. This number is very close to what creationists claim Earth's age is, and what the Jew's claim the age of humanity. Food for thought.