Looking For A Better Word

[Guest Davka]

No, HV, not about you. I'm frustrated and venting because I get tired of the label 'atheist' constantly being challenged as if it's somehow incorrect or incomplete. No, it doesn't tell your life story, but it clearly indicates that you do not believe in gods. That's enough, IMHO. I'm a simple guy!

 

Mmmm - I'm not so sure that's what it means any more, at least to the average joe. Words change their meanings over time. Take "gay" as a case in point. Or "queer" for that matter.

 

Most people hear "atheist" and they think "person who believes that there is no god." It's taken on the connotation of refuting the existence of gods rather than simple lack of belief. Yes, this definition is incorrect. But it is rapidly becoming the primary meaning of the word, regardless of what Webster's says.

[florduh]

Mmmm - I'm not so sure that's what it means any more, at least to the average joe.

 

As long as Average Joe has no expectation of seeing me at his Men's Prayer Breakfast, it is sufficient.

 

Actually I do refute the existence of gods, so that nuance doesn't bother me. They aren't going to get the philosophical arguments and reasoning for why a person is an atheist anyway. To have them just understand that I do not believe in their god or any other god sufficiently defines my position to them.

 

My problem with this recurring topic is the criticism from all corners that the word 'atheist' merely says what I don't believe and doesn't address what I do believe. It doesn't have to. Atheism isn't some kind of a substitute religion for the Real Thing™. It doesn't imply that I have different beliefs from the theist, but rather that I have no belief at all.

[Kathlene]

Why does anyone have to explain to anyone what they do or don't believe in? Its a very private and personal thing. I don't think it should be part of your greeting..Hi Im Kathlene...and Im an atheist, agnostic, whatever.

Whose business is it anyway what you believe? I think xtians need to learn this whole mind your own business concept. I am so embarrassed and ashamed at the way I used to behave as a xtian. Now I couldn't care less what anyone believes in when I meet them, unless I get the sense they are going to try and convert me.

[noob]

This thread amuses me. Several months ago, I could have written the OP. When I was a Christian, I bought into the whole “evil atheist” viewpoint. Not because of anything I had experienced or studied. Just because… that’s what we Christians knew to be true! (I am now embarrassed by my ignorance and arrogance.)

 

When I came to the realization that I no longer believed in the existence of god, I was very uncomfortable with the idea that I had become an atheist. Oh, no!!!!! NOT one of THOSE!!! And, it took months for me to be able to say that it was so.

 

But, things are changing. Slowly but surely, I am becoming more and more comfortable – with the word, with the fact that I am an atheist, and with sharing that fact openly with others.

 

This past Saturday I spent the evening with a couple who are VERY Catholic. There is a lot of talk about spirituality, many, many opportunities to talk about how blessed we are, prayers at mealtime, yada, yada, yada. When they told me how “blessed” I am that my surgery went so well, and when they kept mentioning how much more calm and happy I seemed to be, I could not let the opportunity pass. I told them that I was thankful for my good health, the great surgeon, the physical therapists, and my supportive friends. I went on to tell them that I no longer believe in god so I’m not really looking at my recovery as a blessing. And, I told them that I thought I was more calm and happy because I am focused on enjoying my life instead of worrying about where I am going to spend eternity.

 

His response? In a very condescending, patronizing way, he told me that he too had gone through different stages, and at one time he was agnostic, and when he came home from Vietnam, he was a “kill, kill, rape and pillage” atheist. But, he continued, just because you think this way now, doesn’t mean you’ll think this way forever. If I had let myself, I could have been offended, or possibly even enraged by his pompous attitude. But, being the easy-going, easily-amused person that I am, I simply told him that I thought he might want to rethink his understanding of an atheist. I explained to him that my lack of belief in god had not changed me, the person that I am, one bit. If he thought I was good and kind before, he could continue to view me that way.

 

I guess this is a long-winded way of saying, yes; there is a lot of confusion about the meaning of the word and misconceptions about the people who identify themselves as atheists. But, does it really serve any purpose to come up with other words or phrases to replace the word atheist? I don’t think so. I’ll simply use it, explain it the way I see it, and let it go at that. I think the people who are going to dislike me because I don’t believe in their god are going to dislike me no matter what I call myself.

[R. S. Martin]

I do not like the word "atheist" to describe myself. Not because it isn't accurate, but because it carries too many negative connotations for most people. Theists tend to equate "atheist" with "anti-God."

 

......

 

Thoughts?

 

My thoughts, after reading all the posts in this thread, are that different terms mean different things in different geographical areas and/or social circles.

 

I am sometimes asked, "What church do you go to?"

 

I stopped going to church a year or two before I deconverted. During this time, a person whom I had considered a close friend asked where I'm going to church. I told her that I'm not going to church.

 

That basically ended the conversation and from that point on she and her family treated me like an atheist. They refused to discuss religion or theology with me. I felt like they considered me unfit for discussion of such sacred topics. Yet I still believed in God and considered myself a Christian and I would have loved to discuss the issues.

 

Thus, it seems the connotations are vast and varied.

 

Most of the time, when and if the need arises in real life to state my position on religion, I state that I'm not religious. On forums dealing with religion, if I'm new, I tend to make my position clear from the get-go just so no one can accuse me down the road of hypocrisy or lying. It need only be a simple insertion of a term such as "as an atheist..." or "as one who thinks god does not exist/lacks belief in god..." etc. Sometimes young Christians ask for help on spiritual matters on Reasonable Faith.org and atheists respond. Seldom do we go far without clarifying our position re belief in god.

 

In real life, I find it more difficult to take the sharp criticism and disapproval that comes with the label. Hence answers such as "I don't go to church," or "I am not religious." I happen to live in a geographical community where there is a church, mosque, temple, or other house of worship on nearly every street corner--thus "not going to church" may hold stronger implications here than in some areas. But on a personal level, I've learned to embrace the term "atheist" as a clean-cut and neat label that fits me.

[Loren]

Davka, there is no label that's not going to cause this type of mis-reaction in many people.

 

The reason for this is that in the perpetual factional power struggles of humanity, one of the oldest tried and true methods of crowd-control is the systematic redefinition of terminology to slander, undermine and generally demonize whatever group the power-mad want to overcome. For years, I've been following all sorts of Christian broadcast outlets to keep track of what kind of techniques they use on people (among other things). There is a constant race among rational people to come up with new labels which are simply and accurately descriptive and/or neutral. And there is a relentless response among the leaders and movement-shapers on the other side to redefine every single one of those labels to mean something evil.

 

As soon as a new verbal tool pops up, it gets vigorously smeared and hijacked. I've never seen an exception.

 

You're going to be dealing with this the rest of your life. As long as there are intestinal parasites on the body politic, you will be encountering their larvae.

[Cracked]

Rationalist

 

Realist

 

Atheist

 

Non theist

 

Humanist

 

Anti Creationist

 

Antichrist

....

 

How about just Exist!

[mwc]

Mmmm - I'm not so sure that's what it means any more, at least to the average joe. Words change their meanings over time. Take "gay" as a case in point. Or "queer" for that matter.

Hmmm...point taken.

 

So since you seem willing to engage these people in a little bit of conversation anyway just say: "I'm a born again Christian. I don't believe in a God though I fully expect others to believe in the ones of my choosing or face my disapproval."

 

mwc

[Neon Genesis]

The problem with avoiding using the word atheist because of negative connotations is that in America anything that's not a fundamentalist Christian has negative connotations. Should Muslims start calling themselves followers of Allah since fundies associate Muslims with terrorists? Should political liberals start calling themselves non-Republicans because liberals are associated with communism? Should evolutionary biologists start calling themselves scientists who study evolution because fundies associate evolutionists with Darwin worshippers? Should gays start themselves people who have sex with the same sex because fundies associate gays with sexually promiscuous people with loose morals? Where does the madness end and we just tell the fundies to fuck off with their misinformed distortions? If someone is going to judge me based on their preconception of what I label myself as, then frankly I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain myself to someone who only sees me through their xtian lenses and is not interested in anything I have to say, so those xtians can just fuck off. I like the atheist label because it's what suits me best and I don't see a need to change my label just because some bigots want to lump me in with Stalinists because unless you're a conservative Christian, in America the xtians are always going to associate you with evil.

 

The other alternative labels just don't fit me that well or I just don't feel comfortable with it. Freethinker sounds almost as much work to explain to people as the atheist label. Secular Humanism to me sounds like an activist label. I know it's not really but it just sounds like the kind of label you can only wear if you're actively involved in politics and atheist activism, so I don't feel comfortable with it. I like naturalist but it sounds too sciencey to me. I like science, it's just naturalist sounds like the kind of label for scientists and people who really love science to wear and I don't feel sciencey enough for it. Non-theist just doesn't sound as catchy to me as atheist and Brights just sounds kind of cheesy to me. There maybe a lot of negative connotations and misconceptions people have with the word atheist, but to me it's still the most simplest word I can think of to let xtians know that I have no god beliefs and I think it's because of the connotations, in a way, that I embrace the label. Because society is never going to change its preconceptions of atheists if they never meet atheists that don't fit their preconceptions, but it's ultimately all a matter of what label makes you feel the most comfortable and to hell with what others think. I also think there's a difference between the definition of the word gay being changed and xtians trying to change the word atheist. In the case of the word gay, the label was adopted by the LGBT community and embraced with pride and so the word just fell in naturally in the English language. In the case of the word atheist, xtians are trying to force a definition on the people who use the word that they know is a wrong definition. It's sort of like how people used to associate anime with violent pornographic cartoons for nerds. Just because most Americans thought anime was violent pornographic cartoons for nerds doesn't mean the word anime evolved into its new definition. It just means the American masses didn't know what they were talking about.

[RankStranger]

For me, it depends on who I'm talking to and how much of a discussion I feel like having. If I feel like having a spirited discussion or maybe ridiculing somebody, then I'll tell them that I'm an atheist.

 

If I want to keep the conversation tame, but I DO feel like being honest about it, then I tell them "I'm not religious"- which gets the same point across without conjuring images of fetus sandwiches.

 

Or if I don't feel like discussing it at all, then my response can range from "that's something that I won't discuss at work" to "none of your goddamn business"- depending on the situation and the response that I'm looking for.

[Snafutopia]

I do not like the word "atheist" to describe myself. Not because it isn't accurate, but because it carries too many negative connotations for most people. Theists tend to equate "atheist" with "anti-God." The word atheist is often accompanied by words such as "communist" or "evil." It automatically raises people's hackles, which makes conversation much more difficult.

 

So I'm thinking I'm going to start calling myself a non-theist. It carries the same meaning, without the unfortunate baggage. In fact, I think non-theist is a short lesson on true atheism in a nutshell.

 

Thoughts?

 

I'm not able to feel comfortable with the label "atheist". Even if I weren't a part-time agnostic, I'd still feel uncomfortable with the label "atheist." And it's safer to call myself a wannabe-rationalist.

[Snafutopia]

Or whatever it is you do believe.

 

And that's the basic problem. Even nonreligious people can't seem to wrap their minds around the notion that it is possible for a person to simply have no supernatural beliefs or deities of some kind. The word 'atheist' is neither positive or negative - it's descriptive.

 

The term 'atheist' doesn't and shouldn't imply alternative beliefs to fill an imagined void that is left by not believing in gods. It's simple. An atheist just lacks a belief in gods, and usually all other supernatural notions as well. But strictly speaking it only means no belief in any god. The word doesn't address the concept of possible alternative beliefs to not believing. It doesn't mean believing in some god, but just not 'yours". It doesn't mean that another spiritual path that leaves out a god has been chosen.

 

I got tired of explaining how calling myself an atheist provides no information about what I think about philosophy, religions in general, or evolution. That's why I just tell the misinformed to look up the word and accept its meaning.

 

Agnosticism, deism, etc. are entirely outside the reach of that simple term.

 

How about instead of saying you're an atheist, just say, "I don't believe in any gods"? I'm afraid even that clear statement would be frequently met with disbelief and more prodding about what belief has replaced the god concept. Maybe it's just hopeless. I'm agnostic on that point.

 

As always, Florduh, you make some good points. And re that last paragraph, sometimes I'll say, "I'm unable to believe anymore," or "I've lost the ability to believe." Because that's true, and it maybe helps the person understand my p.o.v. -- that belief isn't a choice -- and neither is unbelief. Losing faith is something that happened to me, not something I did.

 

This phrasing seems to help (a bit) diffuse the tendency fundies have, to instantly attack ex-c's, as if we've committed a crime.