Ex Christians Reasons For Leaving Christianity

[Overcame Faith]

Well, at least you have finally exposed your true intentions. You are clearly evangelizing. It is obvious because if you were truly seeking information to write some sort of study or report or whatever you claimed to be doing, then all you had to do was read some of the hundreds (maybe thousands) of posts in which many here posted their heartfelt extimonies. Your refusal to do that was the first, though oblique, indication that you had ulterior motives. Additionally, in your two new threads (one of which has been closed) all you do is quote scripture, a stunt obviously designed to bring us back to the fold (which won't happen).

 

 

Try being forthright in the future....

[Guest WAVESFORFUN]

I could go back and read old posts but would rather have it fresh.

Waves, whether you are lazy and deceitful or not, this certainly seems just plain lazy and deceitful. To the point where it's insulting. If all you wanted was what your original question asked for, you could easily have answers to all your general questions simply by spending some time and reading in Testimonies. You're perfectly welcome to continue this thread to your heart's content, but as you've noticed, several members have smelled something stinky about you already. What are we to think when you claim to have some sort of concern about our reasons for leaving, yet you don't want to take the time or put out the effort to go read in the forum which is dedicated to archiving YEARS worth of exactly the answers you're asking for?

 

"I'd rather have it fresh"???

 

How fresh do you need? How about testimonies posted today? Or yesterday? That's not "fresh" enough for you? With the tremendous amount of diligent, difficult and emotionally wrenching work which so many members of this community have already done, the results of which can be found in Testimonies, the fact that you're willing to ask members to do even more for your sake when it would be so easy for you to have those very answers by just clicking a link tells us more than you may be comfortable with about the qualities of your character.

 

Important note: While you are completely welcome to post all over this website, there are two fora where your input is unwelcome: Testimonies and Ex-Christian Life. I'd highly encourage you to read all you want in those, particularly in Testimonies, but please do not post there.

 

Here's the link: Testimonies.

 

Loren

 

Yes but reasons then may not be the resons now. People change. those who left christianity proved that. You ask me to go back and read? Well.....years ago could have changed now right?

[Guest WAVESFORFUN]

Bring you back to the Fold? hemmm....Nope..... Yes again.....I say to that...No...Not here to save anyone.... Back to the fold? Why are you worried that I would try that when you seem to be so against it? Why is it the number one assumption? Are all ex christians jumpy like that? Would the faith that you so abuse so readly except you back?

[Overcame Faith]

Bring you back to the Fold? hemmm....Nope..... Yes again.....I say to that...No...Not here to save anyone.... Back to the fold? Why are you worried that I would try that when you seem to be so against it? Why is it the number one assumption? Are all ex christians jumpy like that? Would the faith that you so abuse so readly except you back?

 

Obvious baiting. Come now. Aren't you capable of more subtlety?

[buffettphan]

I could go back and read old posts but would rather have it fresh.

 

christianese translation: I'm a troll with an agenda and too fucking lazy to look for myself.

[Deva]

Bring you back to the Fold? hemmm....Nope..... Yes again.....I say to that...No...Not here to save anyone.... Back to the fold? Why are you worried that I would try that when you seem to be so against it? Why is it the number one assumption? Are all ex christians jumpy like that? Would the faith that you so abuse so readly except you back?

 

We are "jumpy like that" from years of hearing stupid ass indoctrination like you are attempting (very poorly) to do here. Some of us suffered abuse from Christians and the Church. Then again you would know that if you would read some of our "old, outdated" Testimonies. If you were not trying to do indoctrination why quote Bible verses at us and question whether or not we are still afraid? Its very badly done. You are not fooling anyone anymore.

[DarthOkkata]

In a nutshell:

 

Horus Jesus

 

Conception: By a virgin. By a virgin.

 

Father: Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Only begotten son of Yehovah .

 

Mother: Isis-Meri. Miriam (now often referred to as Mary).

 

Foster father: Seb, (a.k.a. Jo-Seph). Joseph.

 

Foster father's ancestry: Of royal descent. Of royal descent.

 

Birth location: In a cave. In a cave or stable.

 

Annunciation: By an angel to Isis, his mother. By an angel to Miriam, his mother.

 

Birth heralded by: The star Sirius, the morning star. An unidentified "star in the East."

 

Birth date: Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (about DEC-21). Born during the fall. However, his birth date is now celebrated on DEC-25. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.

 

Birth announcement: By angels. By angels.

 

Birth witnesses: Shepherds. Shepherds.

 

Later witnesses to birth: Three solar deities. Three wise men.

 

Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.

 

Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus' mother "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." An angel tells Jesus' father to: "Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."

 

Rite of passage ritual: Horus came of age with a special ritual, when his eye was restored. Taken by parents to the temple for what is today called a bar mitzvah ritual.

 

Age at the ritual: 12 12

 

Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. No data between ages of 12 & 30.

 

Baptism location: In the river Eridanus. In the river Jordan.

 

Age at baptism: 30. 30.

 

Baptized by: Anup the Baptiser. John the Baptist, a.k.a. John the Baptist.

 

Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Beheaded.

 

Temptation: Taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain by his arch-rival Sut. Sut (a.k.a. Set) was a precursor for the Hebrew Satan. Taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain by his arch-rival Satan.

 

Result of temptation: Horus resists temptation. Jesus resists temptation.

 

Close followers: Twelve disciples. Twelve disciples.

 

Activities: Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He "stilled the sea by his power." Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He ordered the sea with a "Peace, be still" command.

 

Raising of the dead: Horus raised Osirus, his dead father, from the grave. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave.

 

Location where the resurrection miracle occurred: Anu, an Egyptian city where the rites of the death, burial and resurrection of Horus were enacted annually. Hebrews added their prefix for house ('beth") to "Anu" to produce "Beth-Anu" or the "House of Anu." Since "u" and "y" were interchangeable in antiquity, "Bethanu" became "Bethany," the location mentioned in John 11.

 

Linkage between the name of Osirus in Egyptian religion and Lazarus in the Gospel of John: Asar was an alternative name for Osirus, Horus' father. Horus raised Asar from the dead. He was referred to as "the Asar," as a sign of respect. Translated into Hebrew, Asr is "El-Asar." The Romans added the prefix "us" to indicate a male name, producing "Elasarus." Over time, the "E" was dropped and "s" became "z," producing "Lazarus." Jesus is said to have raised his friend Lazarus from the dead.

 

Transfigured: On a mountain. On a high mountain.

 

Key address(es): Sermon on the Mount. Sermon on the Mount; Sermon on the Plain.

 

Method of death By crucifixion By crucifixion.

 

Accompanied by: Two thieves. Two thieves.

 

Burial In a tomb. In a tomb.

 

Fate after death: Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days. Descended into Hell; resurrected after about 30 to 38 hours (Friday PM to presumably some time in Sunday AM) covering parts of three days.

 

Resurrection announced by: Women. Women.

 

Future: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium. Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.

 

Nature: Regarded as a mythical character. Regarded as a 1st century CE human prophet by Jewish Christians; viewed as a human man-god in the Gospel of John.

 

Main role: Savior of humanity. Savior of humanity.

 

Status: God-man. God-man.

 

Common portrayal: Virgin Isis holding the infant Horus. Virgin Mary holding the infant Jesus.

 

Title: KRST, the anointed one. Christ, the anointed one.

 

Other names: The good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, the winnower. The good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, the winnower.

 

Zodiac sign: Associated with Pisces, the fish. Associated with Pisces, the fish.

 

Main symbols: Fish, beetle, the vine, shepherd's crook. Fish, beetle, the vine, the shepherd's crook.

 

Criteria for salvation at the place of judgment:

 

"I have given bread to the hungry man and water to the thirsty man and clothing to the naked person and a boat to the shipwrecked mariner."

 

 

"For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me..." Matthew 25:35-36 (KJV).

 

"I am" statements

 

"I am Horus in glory...I am the Lord of Light...I am the victorious one...I am the heir of endless time...I, even I, am he that knoweth the paths of heaven." 8

"I am Horus, the Prince of Eternity."

"I am Horus who stepeth onward through eternity...Eternity and everlastingness is my name."

"I am the possessor of bread in Anu. I have bread in heaven with Ra."

 

"I am the light of the world....I am the way, the truth and the life."

"Before Abraham was, I am"

"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever."

"I am the living bread that came down from heaven."

 

(From the Gospel of John)

 

Jesus + Krishna

 

Jesus and Krishna were called both a God and the Son of God.

 

Both was sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man.

 

Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity.

 

His adoptive human father was a carpenter.

 

A spirit or ghost was their actual father.

 

Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent.

 

Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star.

 

Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna's parents stayed in Mathura.

 

Both Yeshua and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted.

 

Both were identified as "the seed of the woman bruising the serpent's head."

 

Jesus was called "the lion of the tribe of Judah." Krishna was called "the lion of the tribe of Saki."

 

Both claimed: "I am the Resurrection."

 

Both referred to themselves having existed before their birth on earth.

 

Both were "without sin."

 

Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine.

 

They were both considered omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

 

Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured "all manner of diseases."

 

Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead.

 

Both selected disciples to spread his teachings.

 

Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners.

 

Both encountered a Gentile woman at a well.

 

Both celebrated a last supper. Both forgave his enemies.

 

Both descended into Hell, and were resurrected. Many people witnessed their ascensions into heaven.

 

The object of Krishna's birth was to bring about a victory of good over evil.

 

Krishna "came onto earth to cleanse the sins of the human beings."

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Krishna was born while his foster-father Nanda was in the city to pay his tax to the king. Jesus was born while his foster-father, Joseph, was in the city to be enumerated in a census so that "all the world could be taxed."

 

Jesus is recorded as saying: "if you had faith as a mustard seed you would say to the mountain uproot yourself and be cast into the ocean" Krishna is reported as having uprooted a small mountain.

 

Krishna's "...foster-father Nanda had to journey to Mathura to pay his taxes" just as Jesus foster-father Joseph is recorded in the Gospel of Luke as having to go to Bethlehem to pay taxes.

 

The story about the birth of Elizabeth's son John (the Baptist), cousin of Jesus, corresponds with the story in the Krishna myth about the birth of the child of Nanda and his wife Yasoda." Nanda was the foster-father of Krishna.

 

The Greek God Dionysos, Jesus and Krishna were all said to have been placed in a manger basket after birth.

 

Krishna was crucified, and is shown with holes in his feet, hands and side.

 

Mithra:

 

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.

 

He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.

 

He had 12 companions or disciples.

 

Mithra's followers were promised immortality.

 

He performed miracles.

 

As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.

 

He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.

 

His resurrection was celebrated every year.

 

He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.

 

He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," [Word] "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."

 

His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.

 

Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.

 

His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."

 

His annual sacrifice is the Passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement of pledge of moral and physical regeneration.

 

The Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, and the Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced ...

 

Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to altar to doxology, are directly taken from other religions.

 

 

This is available as a PDF or Html file on the site, and is yet more reasons why I chose to leave Christianity. All of this is in the Bible, feel free to look it up yourself.

 

The Bible:

 

Who You Should Kill

 

--Unruly or rebellious child. Deut 21:20-21

 

--Those who curse or hit their parents. Lev 20:9,

Ex 21:15

 

--Worshipers of other gods. Deut 13:6-11

 

--psychics, witches. Lev 20:27, Deut 13:6-11,

Ex 22:18.

 

--Those who do not believe in Jesus (parable).

Luke 19:27.

 

--Those who work on the Sabbath. Ex 35:2

 

Moses kills a gentile for this. Num 15:32-36.

 

--Those who are accused by at least two people

of wickedness. Deut 17:6.

 

--The children and babies of enemies. Num 31:17,

Deut 20:13, Psalm 137:9, Lev 26:29.

 

--Adulterers. Lev 20:10.

 

--Homosexuals. Lev 20:13.

 

--A woman who is not a virgin when married.

Deut 22:13-21.

 

--Those who are careless with murderous livestock.

Exodus 21:29.

 

Who You Should Hate

 

--Those who eat crab or shrimp. Lev 11:10.

 

--Those who sacrifice an animal to God that

has a blemish. Deut 17:1.

 

--Those who remarry the same person after

divorce. Deut 24:4.

 

--Homosexuals. Lev 18:22.

 

--Those who are proud. Prov 16:5.

 

--A woman who wears pants. Deut 22:5.

 

--A man with long hair (Jesus?). 1Cor 11:14

contradicts Num 6:5, 1Sam 1:11, Jug 13:5.

 

--those who call others fools Mat 5:22

 

Should we still do this stuff?

 

--All OT laws still apply in NT. Matt 5:17-19

 

Contradicted in part by Mat 5:38-39

 

 

Doomsday Cult

 

--Jesus/Bible claims the end is near + in our past

Mark9:1 Mat16:27-28 Luke 9:26-27 Luke 21:32

Mat 24:34 John 5:25-29 James 5:8 1John 2:18

1Pet 4:7 Mal 4

 

Family and Political Values

 

-- Jesus says to hate/abandon your family

Luke 14:26, Mat 10:35-36, Mat 19:29.

 

--Jesus says to call no man on earth your father.

Mat 23:9

 

--Jesus says to honor your parents. Mat 19:19.

 

--No families in heaven. Mark 12:25.

 

--Don't marry 1cor7:1,8,27, Remarry Mat 5:32

 

--Jesus/NT says to pay taxes and obey the

government. Rom 13:1-7, 2Peter 2:10,

Mat 22:17-21, Mark 12:17, Luke 20:25.

 

--Jesus is against public prayer. Mat 6:5-6.

 

--Rich can't be Christian. Matt 19:24.

 

--Give all to poor. Luke 18:22.

 

--Lot impregnates his daughters after God kills

his wife, then honored. Gen 19. 2Peter 2:7

 

--a thing is not alive until breathing. Gen 2:7.

 

--Punishment for killing fetus is fine Ex 21,22-25.

 

--Women are worth less and should submit Eph

5:22-24, Col 3:18, 1Cor 11:5-10, 14:34-35.

 

--Become eunuchs (castrated) Mat 19:12

 

--Sodom not destroyed for homosexuality, not

listening to Jesus=greater sin than Sodom's.

Ez16:49-5, Luke 10:10-12.

 

--Gay David?1Sam18:1-4,20:3-4,7,41, 2Sam1:25-26

 

--God makes people gay. Rom 1:26-28.

Mythical Creatures.

 

--Giants. Gen 6:4, 1Sam. 17:4.

 

--Ghosts 1Sam 28:8:20

 

--Demons. Luke 11:14.

 

-- Leviathans. Isaiah 27:1, Job 41:1.

 

-- Dragons. (Revelations).

 

-- Angels. Mat 28:2, Gen 19.

 

--Unicorns. Isaiah 34:7.-

 

--Witches/Mediums Ex22:18 Mic5:12 1Sam28:8-20

 

--Sorcerers. Ex 7:22, Ex 8:7, Ex 8:18.

 

--Talking Donkeys. Num 23:23-30

 

-- UFOs. Gen 6:4, 2Kings 2:11, Ezek 10

 

 

Super Powers and Magic

 

--A true Christian should be baptized, have faith,

cast out demons, speak in tongues, take up serpents,

be able to heal the sick, and be completely immune

to any poison. Mark 16:16-18.

 

--A true Christian can perform greater miracles than

Jesus. John 14:12.

 

--Christians can move mountains and trees by

command. Mat 17:20, 21:21 Mark 11:23 Luke 17:6

 

--Whatever a man asks of God he will receive Mat 7:7

 

--all things are possible with God. Mat 19:26.

 

--God has trouble overcoming iron chariots.

Judges 1:19.

 

--Jesus uses magic spells. Mark 6:4-5, 7:33-35,

Mark 8:23-25.

 

--Jesus had limited powers. Mark 6:5

 

--Sorcerers can do the same magic stuff God does.

Ex 7:22, Ex 8:7.

 

--Apollonius is just like a Jesus.

 

Science.

 

--7 days, firmament, plant (before the sun), sea

creatures, birds, land animals, man and woman

together, Gen 1.

 

--1 day, man, plants, all other creatures, woman,

knowledge of good and evil given only to a tree at

first, flaming sword Gen 2.

 

--7,000 year old earth.

 

--The earth is flat. Mat 4:5-8, Luke 4:5,

Isaiah 11:12, Rev 7:1, Dan 4:10-11

 

--The sun moves around a stationary Earth and the

moon has its own light. Isaiah 13:10,

Psalm 19:4-5, 1Sam 2:8, 1Chr 16:30,

Psalm 96:10, Psalm 104:5.

 

-- Pi = 3. 2Chron 4:2, 1King7:23.

 

--Flood--rainbow Gen9:13, 7 (Gen 7:2) or

2 (Gen 6:19 7:8,9,15) of each animal, lasted 40

(Gen 7:17) or 150 (7:24, 8:3) days, salinity+fish,

Australia's animals,deadly parasites, dinosaurs,

size+time+feed problem.

 

-- Tower of Bable Linguistics Gen 11.

 

 

Jesus' Birth

 

--Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit and was a

product of virgin birth. Mat 1:18-21

 

--Jesus was conceived by the seed of David

according to the flesh. Rom 1:3

 

--Heli was the paternal grandfather of Jesus Luke 3:23

 

--Jacob was the paternal grandfather of Jesus.

Mat 1:16, John 4:5.

 

Jesus on a Good Day

 

--love your enemies. Mat 5:43-44.

 

--golden rule Mat 7:12 Luke 6:31

 

--Judge not. Mat 7:1

 

--Consider the lilies Luke 12:27, Mat 6:28

 

--be like children Mat 18:3.

 

--give anything asked of you by anyone. Luke 6:30

 

--turn other cheek Luke 6:29.

 

--not against me is with me Mark 9:40 Luke 9:50

 

Jesus on a Bad Day

 

--not with me is against me Mat 12:30, Luke 11:23

 

--accommodate the wicked and do not resist

evil. Mat 5:39-45.

 

--Kill disbeliveers (parable) Luke 19:27.

 

--wicked get eternal torture of Hell. Mark 9:43-48.

 

--Fruit tree hatred. Mark 11:13-14,20.

contradicts Mat 21:19-20

 

--Jesus came to cause strife. Luke 12:51-53,

Mat 10:34.

 

-- Jesus says to hate/abandon your family

Luke 14:26, Mat 10:35-36, Mat 19:29.

 

--Jesus threatens to kill children Rev 2:23

 

Seeing God/Jesus

 

--no one has seen God. John 1:18.

 

--Jacob saw God's face. Gen 32:30.

 

--Moses saw his backside. Ex 33:23.

 

--God has dinner with Abraham. Gen 18.

 

--Paul never met Jesus 2Cor 12, Gal 1:11-12

 

 

Hopeful Plagiarisms

 

--Jesus + Elijah do the same thing in the same

words. 1Kings 17, Luke 7.

 

--Luke + Elijah do the same thing in same

words. Ezek 1:1,4:9,4:14, Acts10:11-14

 

Miscellaneous Contradictions

 

--God will punish son for father's crimes Ex 20:5

 

--God won't punish son for father's crimes.

Ezek 18:20.

 

--Jesus' last words all different. Mat 27:46,

Luke 23:46, John 19:30.

 

--Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James

go to tomb, find guards and boulder which move

after earthquake. One flying angel on bolder tells

what happened. Mat 28

 

--Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James,

and Salome go to tomb, find no guards or bolder

and one young man in tomb tell what happened.

But women told no one. Mark 16

 

--Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James, Joanna,

and some other women go to tomb, and two men

in the tomb tell what happened. Luke 24

 

--Mary goes to the tomb to find nothing, she

tells the disciples someone stole body so they go

back and again find nothing. The disciples then

leave and Jesus appears to tell Mary what

happened. John 20

 

----older versions of Mark end at Mark 16:8

without anyone seeing the risen Christ.

 

-- Earth will exist forever Eccl 1:4.

 

--Earth will end in Armageddon 2Pet 3:10

 

--Judas fell and burst open. Act 1:18-19.

 

--Judas hung himself. Mat 27-3:10.

 

--Jesus carries his own cross. John 19:17.

 

--Simon carries Jesus' cross. Mark 15:21-22.

 

--Wisdom is good Prov 3:13, 4:7

 

--Wisdom is bad 1Cor 1:19 Eccl 1:18

 

--God had one son 1John 4:9

 

--God had many sons Gen 6:2,4 Job 1:6, 2:1

 

 

Miscellaneous Contradictions Continued

 

--No author was at Jesus' trial yet narrative

fabricated to fit OT. Mark 14:50.

 

--Jesus crucified at 9:00am (3rd hour Rom) on

Passover. Mark 15:1,25 14:1

 

--Jesus crucified noon (6th hour Rom) day before

Passover. John 19:14.

 

--Virgin birth and the baptism.

 

God and Evil

 

--God admits He created evil. Isaiah 45:7 Amos 3:6

 

--God sends Satan to ruin Job's life. Job 2:1-7.

 

--God hardens Pharaoh's heart. Ex 9:12,

10:1,20,27, 11:10, 14:8.

 

--God commands/supports slavery.

Lev 25:44-46, Ex 21:2-8, Eph 6:5, Col 3:22.

 

--Anti women. 1Cor 14:34, 1Tim 2:9-14, Gen 5:16.

 

--rape rules: Deut 22:23-29, in city man+woman die;

in country only man dies; if woman not married

then man pays 50 shekels, and they wed.

 

--Anti Jew. 1Thes 2:14,15, Titus 1:10

 

--God favors neither good nor evil. Mat 5:45.

 

--God created some people predestined to go to

hell Rom 8:29-30, Jude 1:4, Mat 7:13-14.

 

--God admits to deceit. 1Kings 22:23. Is 6:10.

 

--Jesus admits to deceit (reason for parables).

2Thess 2:11-12, Mark 4:10-12, Mat 13:10-11

 

--God sends bears to kill children. 2Kings 2:24.

 

--God commands the killing of babies Num 31:17,

Deut 20:13, Psalm 137:9, Lev 26:29, Num 31:17.

 

--Jesus threatens to kill children for mother's

crime Rev 2:23

 

--God/Jesus hate. Rom 9:13, Rev 2:6, Psalm 5:5

 

--don't associate with people who have different

opinions. 2John 1:10-11. 2Cor 6:14-17

 

--Incestuous Lot revered. 2Peter 2:7

 

(bribes and threats--heaven and hell)

 

The simple believes every word but the prudent

considers well his every step. Prov 14:15

 

 

Conclusion: Christanity is total hypocritical Bullshit, and provably so.

 

I could add more, but I think this post is long enough.

 

To put it bluntly, this is just the tip of the iceburg on the subject. You won't find any bait takers here. Fishing for converts and trying to save those here will only be a painful and humiliating experience for any Christian.

 

If that is your intent, I suggest you move on to a friendlier site. We tend to rip people like that to shreds here. You're not 'helping' anyone here. We're not in need of help, and many of us treat attempts as hostility.

 

Christians like that who come here are viewed as fodder, and are not made to feel welcome.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA-pWKRyyG8

 

If you're truly interested in open minded discussion or giving a Christian perspective, you're [mostly] welcome here and will be tolerated. Most of us here are less than interested in converting others, but rather supporting those who have already decided to leave the 'flock'.

 

Be warned, evangelizing isn't tolerated on this site, and some of us will say very bad things to people who try. This isn't the place for that sort of thing. If that's what you want, there are plenty of Christian sites to visit.

 

This is called the Lion's Den for a reason. If you're trying to convert, you will get eaten.

 

Some people here still have open wounds from their experience with Christianity. So, many of them are less than friendly or willing to listen towards the followers of Christ. Be prepared for that while visiting here, some of us are quite tolerant and willing to discuss about anything.

 

Most of the people on this site believe in rationality, logic, and evidence, and don't rely on Faith or Truth to guide us. Don't expect to appeal to our emotions as proof of the truth of God. It won't work.

 

You've got to be able to prove that he's real if you want us to pay attention.

 

Remember, you can't prove a negative, so we can't [don't need to] prove that he doesn't exist.

 

The burden of proof lies on those making extraordinary claims, and Jesus is indeed an extraordinary claim.

[Robbobrob]

Reason for leaving: I was given an offer I could not refuse. Reality.

[Guest WAVESFORFUN]

In a nutshell:

 

Horus Jesus

 

Conception: By a virgin. By a virgin.

 

Father: Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Only begotten son of Yehovah .

 

Mother: Isis-Meri. Miriam (now often referred to as Mary).

 

Foster father: Seb, (a.k.a. Jo-Seph). Joseph.

 

Foster father's ancestry: Of royal descent. Of royal descent.

 

Birth location: In a cave. In a cave or stable.

 

Annunciation: By an angel to Isis, his mother. By an angel to Miriam, his mother.

 

Birth heralded by: The star Sirius, the morning star. An unidentified "star in the East."

 

Birth date: Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (about DEC-21). Born during the fall. However, his birth date is now celebrated on DEC-25. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.

 

Birth announcement: By angels. By angels.

 

Birth witnesses: Shepherds. Shepherds.

 

Later witnesses to birth: Three solar deities. Three wise men.

 

Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.

 

Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus' mother "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." An angel tells Jesus' father to: "Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."

 

Rite of passage ritual: Horus came of age with a special ritual, when his eye was restored. Taken by parents to the temple for what is today called a bar mitzvah ritual.

 

Age at the ritual: 12 12

 

Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. No data between ages of 12 & 30.

 

Baptism location: In the river Eridanus. In the river Jordan.

 

Age at baptism: 30. 30.

 

Baptized by: Anup the Baptiser. John the Baptist, a.k.a. John the Baptist.

 

Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Beheaded.

 

Temptation: Taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain by his arch-rival Sut. Sut (a.k.a. Set) was a precursor for the Hebrew Satan. Taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain by his arch-rival Satan.

 

Result of temptation: Horus resists temptation. Jesus resists temptation.

 

Close followers: Twelve disciples. Twelve disciples.

 

Activities: Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He "stilled the sea by his power." Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He ordered the sea with a "Peace, be still" command.

 

Raising of the dead: Horus raised Osirus, his dead father, from the grave. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave.

 

Location where the resurrection miracle occurred: Anu, an Egyptian city where the rites of the death, burial and resurrection of Horus were enacted annually. Hebrews added their prefix for house ('beth") to "Anu" to produce "Beth-Anu" or the "House of Anu." Since "u" and "y" were interchangeable in antiquity, "Bethanu" became "Bethany," the location mentioned in John 11.

 

Linkage between the name of Osirus in Egyptian religion and Lazarus in the Gospel of John: Asar was an alternative name for Osirus, Horus' father. Horus raised Asar from the dead. He was referred to as "the Asar," as a sign of respect. Translated into Hebrew, Asr is "El-Asar." The Romans added the prefix "us" to indicate a male name, producing "Elasarus." Over time, the "E" was dropped and "s" became "z," producing "Lazarus." Jesus is said to have raised his friend Lazarus from the dead.

 

Transfigured: On a mountain. On a high mountain.

 

Key address(es): Sermon on the Mount. Sermon on the Mount; Sermon on the Plain.

 

Method of death By crucifixion By crucifixion.

 

Accompanied by: Two thieves. Two thieves.

 

Burial In a tomb. In a tomb.

 

Fate after death: Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days. Descended into Hell; resurrected after about 30 to 38 hours (Friday PM to presumably some time in Sunday AM) covering parts of three days.

 

Resurrection announced by: Women. Women.

 

Future: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium. Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.

 

Nature: Regarded as a mythical character. Regarded as a 1st century CE human prophet by Jewish Christians; viewed as a human man-god in the Gospel of John.

 

Main role: Savior of humanity. Savior of humanity.

 

Status: God-man. God-man.

 

Common portrayal: Virgin Isis holding the infant Horus. Virgin Mary holding the infant Jesus.

 

Title: KRST, the anointed one. Christ, the anointed one.

 

Other names: The good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, the winnower. The good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, the winnower.

 

Zodiac sign: Associated with Pisces, the fish. Associated with Pisces, the fish.

 

Main symbols: Fish, beetle, the vine, shepherd's crook. Fish, beetle, the vine, the shepherd's crook.

 

Criteria for salvation at the place of judgment:

 

"I have given bread to the hungry man and water to the thirsty man and clothing to the naked person and a boat to the shipwrecked mariner."

 

 

"For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me..." Matthew 25:35-36 (KJV).

 

"I am" statements

 

"I am Horus in glory...I am the Lord of Light...I am the victorious one...I am the heir of endless time...I, even I, am he that knoweth the paths of heaven." 8

"I am Horus, the Prince of Eternity."

"I am Horus who stepeth onward through eternity...Eternity and everlastingness is my name."

"I am the possessor of bread in Anu. I have bread in heaven with Ra."

 

"I am the light of the world....I am the way, the truth and the life."

"Before Abraham was, I am"

"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever."

"I am the living bread that came down from heaven."

 

(From the Gospel of John)

 

Jesus + Krishna

 

Jesus and Krishna were called both a God and the Son of God.

 

Both was sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man.

 

Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity.

 

His adoptive human father was a carpenter.

 

A spirit or ghost was their actual father.

 

Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent.

 

Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star.

 

Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna's parents stayed in Mathura.

 

Both Yeshua and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted.

 

Both were identified as "the seed of the woman bruising the serpent's head."

 

Jesus was called "the lion of the tribe of Judah." Krishna was called "the lion of the tribe of Saki."

 

Both claimed: "I am the Resurrection."

 

Both referred to themselves having existed before their birth on earth.

 

Both were "without sin."

 

Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine.

 

They were both considered omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

 

Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured "all manner of diseases."

 

Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead.

 

Both selected disciples to spread his teachings.

 

Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners.

 

Both encountered a Gentile woman at a well.

 

Both celebrated a last supper. Both forgave his enemies.

 

Both descended into Hell, and were resurrected. Many people witnessed their ascensions into heaven.

 

The object of Krishna's birth was to bring about a victory of good over evil.

 

Krishna "came onto earth to cleanse the sins of the human beings."

bullet

 

Krishna was born while his foster-father Nanda was in the city to pay his tax to the king. Jesus was born while his foster-father, Joseph, was in the city to be enumerated in a census so that "all the world could be taxed."

 

Jesus is recorded as saying: "if you had faith as a mustard seed you would say to the mountain uproot yourself and be cast into the ocean" Krishna is reported as having uprooted a small mountain.

 

Krishna's "...foster-father Nanda had to journey to Mathura to pay his taxes" just as Jesus foster-father Joseph is recorded in the Gospel of Luke as having to go to Bethlehem to pay taxes.

 

The story about the birth of Elizabeth's son John (the Baptist), cousin of Jesus, corresponds with the story in the Krishna myth about the birth of the child of Nanda and his wife Yasoda." Nanda was the foster-father of Krishna.

 

The Greek God Dionysos, Jesus and Krishna were all said to have been placed in a manger basket after birth.

 

Krishna was crucified, and is shown with holes in his feet, hands and side.

 

Mithra:

 

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.

 

He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.

 

He had 12 companions or disciples.

 

Mithra's followers were promised immortality.

 

He performed miracles.

 

As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.

 

He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.

 

His resurrection was celebrated every year.

 

He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.

 

He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," [Word] "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."

 

His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.

 

Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.

 

His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."

 

His annual sacrifice is the Passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement of pledge of moral and physical regeneration.

 

The Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, and the Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced ...

 

Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to altar to doxology, are directly taken from other religions.

 

 

This is available as a PDF or Html file on the site, and is yet more reasons why I chose to leave Christianity. All of this is in the Bible, feel free to look it up yourself.

 

The Bible:

 

Who You Should Kill

 

--Unruly or rebellious child. Deut 21:20-21

 

--Those who curse or hit their parents. Lev 20:9,

Ex 21:15

 

--Worshipers of other gods. Deut 13:6-11

 

--psychics, witches. Lev 20:27, Deut 13:6-11,

Ex 22:18.

 

--Those who do not believe in Jesus (parable).

Luke 19:27.

 

--Those who work on the Sabbath. Ex 35:2

 

Moses kills a gentile for this. Num 15:32-36.

 

--Those who are accused by at least two people

of wickedness. Deut 17:6.

 

--The children and babies of enemies. Num 31:17,

Deut 20:13, Psalm 137:9, Lev 26:29.

 

--Adulterers. Lev 20:10.

 

--Homosexuals. Lev 20:13.

 

--A woman who is not a virgin when married.

Deut 22:13-21.

 

--Those who are careless with murderous livestock.

Exodus 21:29.

 

Who You Should Hate

 

--Those who eat crab or shrimp. Lev 11:10.

 

--Those who sacrifice an animal to God that

has a blemish. Deut 17:1.

 

--Those who remarry the same person after

divorce. Deut 24:4.

 

--Homosexuals. Lev 18:22.

 

--Those who are proud. Prov 16:5.

 

--A woman who wears pants. Deut 22:5.

 

--A man with long hair (Jesus?). 1Cor 11:14

contradicts Num 6:5, 1Sam 1:11, Jug 13:5.

 

--those who call others fools Mat 5:22

 

Should we still do this stuff?

 

--All OT laws still apply in NT. Matt 5:17-19

 

Contradicted in part by Mat 5:38-39

 

 

Doomsday Cult

 

--Jesus/Bible claims the end is near + in our past

Mark9:1 Mat16:27-28 Luke 9:26-27 Luke 21:32

Mat 24:34 John 5:25-29 James 5:8 1John 2:18

1Pet 4:7 Mal 4

 

Family and Political Values

 

-- Jesus says to hate/abandon your family

Luke 14:26, Mat 10:35-36, Mat 19:29.

 

--Jesus says to call no man on earth your father.

Mat 23:9

 

--Jesus says to honor your parents. Mat 19:19.

 

--No families in heaven. Mark 12:25.

 

--Don't marry 1cor7:1,8,27, Remarry Mat 5:32

 

--Jesus/NT says to pay taxes and obey the

government. Rom 13:1-7, 2Peter 2:10,

Mat 22:17-21, Mark 12:17, Luke 20:25.

 

--Jesus is against public prayer. Mat 6:5-6.

 

--Rich can't be Christian. Matt 19:24.

 

--Give all to poor. Luke 18:22.

 

--Lot impregnates his daughters after God kills

his wife, then honored. Gen 19. 2Peter 2:7

 

--a thing is not alive until breathing. Gen 2:7.

 

--Punishment for killing fetus is fine Ex 21,22-25.

 

--Women are worth less and should submit Eph

5:22-24, Col 3:18, 1Cor 11:5-10, 14:34-35.

 

--Become eunuchs (castrated) Mat 19:12

 

--Sodom not destroyed for homosexuality, not

listening to Jesus=greater sin than Sodom's.

Ez16:49-5, Luke 10:10-12.

 

--Gay David?1Sam18:1-4,20:3-4,7,41, 2Sam1:25-26

 

--God makes people gay. Rom 1:26-28.

Mythical Creatures.

 

--Giants. Gen 6:4, 1Sam. 17:4.

 

--Ghosts 1Sam 28:8:20

 

--Demons. Luke 11:14.

 

-- Leviathans. Isaiah 27:1, Job 41:1.

 

-- Dragons. (Revelations).

 

-- Angels. Mat 28:2, Gen 19.

 

--Unicorns. Isaiah 34:7.-

 

--Witches/Mediums Ex22:18 Mic5:12 1Sam28:8-20

 

--Sorcerers. Ex 7:22, Ex 8:7, Ex 8:18.

 

--Talking Donkeys. Num 23:23-30

 

-- UFOs. Gen 6:4, 2Kings 2:11, Ezek 10

 

 

Super Powers and Magic

 

--A true Christian should be baptized, have faith,

cast out demons, speak in tongues, take up serpents,

be able to heal the sick, and be completely immune

to any poison. Mark 16:16-18.

 

--A true Christian can perform greater miracles than

Jesus. John 14:12.

 

--Christians can move mountains and trees by

command. Mat 17:20, 21:21 Mark 11:23 Luke 17:6

 

--Whatever a man asks of God he will receive Mat 7:7

 

--all things are possible with God. Mat 19:26.

 

--God has trouble overcoming iron chariots.

Judges 1:19.

 

--Jesus uses magic spells. Mark 6:4-5, 7:33-35,

Mark 8:23-25.

 

--Jesus had limited powers. Mark 6:5

 

--Sorcerers can do the same magic stuff God does.

Ex 7:22, Ex 8:7.

 

--Apollonius is just like a Jesus.

 

Science.

 

--7 days, firmament, plant (before the sun), sea

creatures, birds, land animals, man and woman

together, Gen 1.

 

--1 day, man, plants, all other creatures, woman,

knowledge of good and evil given only to a tree at

first, flaming sword Gen 2.

 

--7,000 year old earth.

 

--The earth is flat. Mat 4:5-8, Luke 4:5,

Isaiah 11:12, Rev 7:1, Dan 4:10-11

 

--The sun moves around a stationary Earth and the

moon has its own light. Isaiah 13:10,

Psalm 19:4-5, 1Sam 2:8, 1Chr 16:30,

Psalm 96:10, Psalm 104:5.

 

-- Pi = 3. 2Chron 4:2, 1King7:23.

 

--Flood--rainbow Gen9:13, 7 (Gen 7:2) or

2 (Gen 6:19 7:8,9,15) of each animal, lasted 40

(Gen 7:17) or 150 (7:24, 8:3) days, salinity+fish,

Australia's animals,deadly parasites, dinosaurs,

size+time+feed problem.

 

-- Tower of Bable Linguistics Gen 11.

 

 

Jesus' Birth

 

--Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit and was a

product of virgin birth. Mat 1:18-21

 

--Jesus was conceived by the seed of David

according to the flesh. Rom 1:3

 

--Heli was the paternal grandfather of Jesus Luke 3:23

 

--Jacob was the paternal grandfather of Jesus.

Mat 1:16, John 4:5.

 

Jesus on a Good Day

 

--love your enemies. Mat 5:43-44.

 

--golden rule Mat 7:12 Luke 6:31

 

--Judge not. Mat 7:1

 

--Consider the lilies Luke 12:27, Mat 6:28

 

--be like children Mat 18:3.

 

--give anything asked of you by anyone. Luke 6:30

 

--turn other cheek Luke 6:29.

 

--not against me is with me Mark 9:40 Luke 9:50

 

Jesus on a Bad Day

 

--not with me is against me Mat 12:30, Luke 11:23

 

--accommodate the wicked and do not resist

evil. Mat 5:39-45.

 

--Kill disbeliveers (parable) Luke 19:27.

 

--wicked get eternal torture of Hell. Mark 9:43-48.

 

--Fruit tree hatred. Mark 11:13-14,20.

contradicts Mat 21:19-20

 

--Jesus came to cause strife. Luke 12:51-53,

Mat 10:34.

 

-- Jesus says to hate/abandon your family

Luke 14:26, Mat 10:35-36, Mat 19:29.

 

--Jesus threatens to kill children Rev 2:23

 

Seeing God/Jesus

 

--no one has seen God. John 1:18.

 

--Jacob saw God's face. Gen 32:30.

 

--Moses saw his backside. Ex 33:23.

 

--God has dinner with Abraham. Gen 18.

 

--Paul never met Jesus 2Cor 12, Gal 1:11-12

 

 

Hopeful Plagiarisms

 

--Jesus + Elijah do the same thing in the same

words. 1Kings 17, Luke 7.

 

--Luke + Elijah do the same thing in same

words. Ezek 1:1,4:9,4:14, Acts10:11-14

 

Miscellaneous Contradictions

 

--God will punish son for father's crimes Ex 20:5

 

--God won't punish son for father's crimes.

Ezek 18:20.

 

--Jesus' last words all different. Mat 27:46,

Luke 23:46, John 19:30.

 

--Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James

go to tomb, find guards and boulder which move

after earthquake. One flying angel on bolder tells

what happened. Mat 28

 

--Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James,

and Salome go to tomb, find no guards or bolder

and one young man in tomb tell what happened.

But women told no one. Mark 16

 

--Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James, Joanna,

and some other women go to tomb, and two men

in the tomb tell what happened. Luke 24

 

--Mary goes to the tomb to find nothing, she

tells the disciples someone stole body so they go

back and again find nothing. The disciples then

leave and Jesus appears to tell Mary what

happened. John 20

 

----older versions of Mark end at Mark 16:8

without anyone seeing the risen Christ.

 

-- Earth will exist forever Eccl 1:4.

 

--Earth will end in Armageddon 2Pet 3:10

 

--Judas fell and burst open. Act 1:18-19.

 

--Judas hung himself. Mat 27-3:10.

 

--Jesus carries his own cross. John 19:17.

 

--Simon carries Jesus' cross. Mark 15:21-22.

 

--Wisdom is good Prov 3:13, 4:7

 

--Wisdom is bad 1Cor 1:19 Eccl 1:18

 

--God had one son 1John 4:9

 

--God had many sons Gen 6:2,4 Job 1:6, 2:1

 

 

Miscellaneous Contradictions Continued

 

--No author was at Jesus' trial yet narrative

fabricated to fit OT. Mark 14:50.

 

--Jesus crucified at 9:00am (3rd hour Rom) on

Passover. Mark 15:1,25 14:1

 

--Jesus crucified noon (6th hour Rom) day before

Passover. John 19:14.

 

--Virgin birth and the baptism.

 

God and Evil

 

--God admits He created evil. Isaiah 45:7 Amos 3:6

 

--God sends Satan to ruin Job's life. Job 2:1-7.

 

--God hardens Pharaoh's heart. Ex 9:12,

10:1,20,27, 11:10, 14:8.

 

--God commands/supports slavery.

Lev 25:44-46, Ex 21:2-8, Eph 6:5, Col 3:22.

 

--Anti women. 1Cor 14:34, 1Tim 2:9-14, Gen 5:16.

 

--rape rules: Deut 22:23-29, in city man+woman die;

in country only man dies; if woman not married

then man pays 50 shekels, and they wed.

 

--Anti Jew. 1Thes 2:14,15, Titus 1:10

 

--God favors neither good nor evil. Mat 5:45.

 

--God created some people predestined to go to

hell Rom 8:29-30, Jude 1:4, Mat 7:13-14.

 

--God admits to deceit. 1Kings 22:23. Is 6:10.

 

--Jesus admits to deceit (reason for parables).

2Thess 2:11-12, Mark 4:10-12, Mat 13:10-11

 

--God sends bears to kill children. 2Kings 2:24.

 

--God commands the killing of babies Num 31:17,

Deut 20:13, Psalm 137:9, Lev 26:29, Num 31:17.

 

--Jesus threatens to kill children for mother's

crime Rev 2:23

 

--God/Jesus hate. Rom 9:13, Rev 2:6, Psalm 5:5

 

--don't associate with people who have different

opinions. 2John 1:10-11. 2Cor 6:14-17

 

--Incestuous Lot revered. 2Peter 2:7

 

(bribes and threats--heaven and hell)

 

The simple believes every word but the prudent

considers well his every step. Prov 14:15

 

 

Conclusion: Christanity is total hypocritical Bullshit, and provably so.

 

I could add more, but I think this post is long enough.

 

To put it bluntly, this is just the tip of the iceburg on the subject. You won't find any bait takers here. Fishing for converts and trying to save those here will only be a painful and humiliating experience for any Christian.

 

If that is your intent, I suggest you move on to a friendlier site. We tend to rip people like that to shreds here. You're not 'helping' anyone here. We're not in need of help, and many of us treat attempts as hostility.

 

Christians like that who come here are viewed as fodder, and are not made to feel welcome.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA-pWKRyyG8

 

If you're truly interested in open minded discussion or giving a Christian perspective, you're [mostly] welcome here and will be tolerated. Most of us here are less than interested in converting others, but rather supporting those who have already decided to leave the 'flock'.

 

Be warned, evangelizing isn't tolerated on this site, and some of us will say very bad things to people who try. This isn't the place for that sort of thing. If that's what you want, there are plenty of Christian sites to visit.

 

This is called the Lion's Den for a reason. If you're trying to convert, you will get eaten.

 

Some people here still have open wounds from their experience with Christianity. So, many of them are less than friendly or willing to listen towards the followers of Christ. Be prepared for that while visiting here, some of us are quite tolerant and willing to discuss about anything.

 

Most of the people on this site believe in rationality, logic, and evidence, and don't rely on Faith or Truth to guide us. Don't expect to appeal to our emotions as proof of the truth of God. It won't work.

 

You've got to be able to prove that he's real if you want us to pay attention.

 

Remember, you can't prove a negative, so we can't [don't need to] prove that he doesn't exist.

 

The burden of proof lies on those making extraordinary claims, and Jesus is indeed an extraordinary claim.

 

 

Jude 1:13-15 (New King James Version)

 

13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

 

 

 

Jude 1 (New International Version)

 

Jude 1

 

1Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,

To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by[a] Jesus Christ:

 

2Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

The sin and doom of Godless men

3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

 

5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

 

8In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.

 

11Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

 

12These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

 

14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

[Guest WAVESFORFUN]

3Beloved, my whole concern was to write to you in regard to our common salvation. [but] I found it necessary and was impelled to write you and urgently appeal to and exhort [you] to contend for the faith which was once for all [a]handed down to the saints [the faith which is that sum of Christian belief which was delivered verbally to the holy people of God].

 

4For certain men have crept in stealthily [[c]gaining entrance secretly by a side door]. Their doom was predicted long ago, ungodly (impious, profane) persons who pervert the grace (the spiritual blessing and favor) of our God into lawlessness and wantonness and immorality, and disown and deny our sole Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

 

5Now I want to remind you, though you were fully informed once for all, that though the Lord [at one time] delivered a people out of the land of Egypt, He subsequently destroyed those [of them] who did not believe [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him].

 

6And angels who did not keep (care for, guard, and hold to) their own first place of power but abandoned their proper dwelling place--these He has reserved in custody in eternal chains (bonds) under the thick gloom of utter darkness until the judgment and doom of the great day.

 

7[The wicked are sentenced to suffer] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent towns--which likewise gave themselves over to impurity and indulged in unnatural vice and sensual perversity--are laid out [in plain sight] as an exhibit of perpetual punishment [to warn] of everlasting fire.(A)

 

8Nevertheless in like manner, these dreamers also corrupt the body, scorn and reject authority and government, and revile and libel and scoff at [heavenly] glories (the glorious ones).

 

9But when [even] the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, judicially argued (disputed) about the body of Moses, he dared not [presume to] bring an abusive condemnation against him, but [simply] said, The Lord rebuke you!(

 

10But these men revile (scoff and sneer at) anything they do not happen to be acquainted with and do not understand; and whatever they do understand physically [that which they know by mere instinct], like irrational beasts--by these they corrupt themselves and are destroyed (perish).

 

11Woe to them! For they have run riotously in the way of Cain, and have abandoned themselves for the sake of gain [it offers them, following] the error of Balaam, and have perished in rebellion [like that] of Korah!©

 

12These are hidden reefs (elements of danger) in your love feasts, where they boldly feast sumptuously [carousing together in your midst], without scruples providing for themselves [alone]. They are clouds without water, swept along by the winds; trees, without fruit at the late autumn gathering time--twice (doubly) dead, [lifeless and] plucked up by the roots;

 

13Wild waves of the sea, flinging up the foam of their own shame and disgrace; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of eternal darkness has been reserved forever.

 

14It was of these people, moreover, that Enoch in the seventh [generation] from Adam prophesied when he said, Behold, the Lord comes with His myriads of holy ones (ten thousands of His saints)

 

15To execute judgment upon all and to convict all the impious (unholy ones) of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed [in such an] ungodly [way], and of all the severe (abusive, jarring) things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

 

16These are inveterate murmurers (grumblers) who complain [of their lot in life], going after their own desires [controlled by their passions]; their talk is boastful and arrogant, [and they claim to] admire men's persons and pay people flattering compliments to gain advantage.

 

17But you must remember, beloved, the predictions which were made by the apostles (the special messengers) of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

 

18They told you beforehand, In the last days (in the end time) there will be scoffers [who seek to gratify their own unholy desires], following after their own ungodly passions.

 

19It is these who are [agitators] setting up distinctions and causing divisions--merely sensual [creatures, carnal, worldly-minded people], devoid of the [Holy] Spirit and destitute of any higher spiritual life.

[Guest WAVESFORFUN]

To those who think I'm trying to win them back. This applies to only those who meet the qualifications for the following.

 

 

4For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,

 

5And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come,

 

6If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.

 

7For the soil which has drunk the rain that repeatedly falls upon it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose benefit it is cultivated partakes of a blessing from God.

 

8But if [that same soil] persistently bears thorns and thistles, it is considered worthless and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.(A)

 

I'm really not.

[florduh]

Waves, why do you keep spouting Bible verses here? Do you not know that many (perhaps most) of us here have studied the book and relevant histories to the point we finally understood it? Really understood? Do you not think we can match you verse for verse? You are addressing former pastors, teachers, missionaries and Biblical scholars.

 

I probably speak for others as well, but I certainly didn't leave the faith because I was "mad at god" or wished to indulge in sinful pleasures. I didn't walk away from Christianity because the people at church were hypocrites. I left the Christian religion because it fails in logic, coherence, efficacy, morality and veracity. I left because the basis for the religion, the Bible, is error-ridden, factually incorrect and generally unreliable - certainly not the word of any god.

[godlessgrrl]

My deconversion story is highly personal. I offer it only to those people I deem worthy of the privilege of knowing something so intimate about me. I offer it only to people who will listen without judgment, and use what they have learned to understand me as an individual human being. I offer it to friends, and to people who share a common cause with me (such as the folks here at ex-C).

 

You are not worthy to hear my story, Waves. You are arrogant, judgmental, and condescending. You speak to people here as if we are faceless, inhuman statistics, as if there is no real human being behind the words on the screen. You treat us as if we are a pitiful curiosity, and you have no awareness of your own self-righteousness and no remorse for your arrogance.

 

I am not going to share my story with you just to become another exhibit in your freak show or a citation in some "research" or "paper" you probably aren't ever going to write. You don't deserve to know me.

 

So forget it.

[DarthOkkata]

None of that disproves, explains away, or rationalizes anything I posted. It's all perfectly valid, and plenty of good reasons not to take the Bible seriously, and very good reasons why it should never be used as a moral compass.

 

Saying the Bible is proof of God, and that I should fear any punishment is about as scary and/or inspiring is exactly the same as saying I should watch out for Orks, and be wary of the temptations of the One Ring because of Lord of the Rings proves that Lord Sauron is real.

 

Saying that it's valid because it takes place in real places and contains a few mentions of historical events is also not valid, because so does Gone With the Wind, The Three Musketeers, and Robin Hood.

 

To put it simply, tossing verses about here is about as effective as quoting Monty Python and the Holy Grail at us, with great big pointy teeth.

 

The Bible was done before, many times, by many other religions, thousands of years before it was ever written. The story of Horus dates to before 3100 BC.

 

I personally don't see what faith and belief has to do with the matter.

 

I 'believe' someone when they tell me they 'washed their car' or 'didn't do their homework'. I choose to believe or not believe someone who tells me they did or didn't do something.

 

I am convinced there is no God because there's no evidence to support that there is one. Which is an entirely different stance all together.

 

All the pretty and/or threatening verses in the world aren't going to change that without some sort of evidence to back it up and give me a reason why I should take them seriously.

 

I'm not afraid of Hell, because I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to think that it's real.

 

I'm not afraid of 'God's wrath' because I have no reason to think it's any more a legitimate threat than Sea Monsters or Unicorn trampling.

 

I'm no more afraid of 'losing God's love' than I am of losing Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny's favor.

 

I read the verses, but I won't sit here and reflect on them any more than I'd reflect on Jurrasic Park, War of the Worlds, or A Christmas Carol. For the same reasons too. It's all fiction.

 

If I have to take the Bible as evidence of Jesus's divinity, then I've got to take the Vedas as evidence of Krishna's divinity, the Quaran as evidence of Allah's divinity, the Book of the Dead as evidence of Horus's divinity, and the Odyssey as evidence of Zeus's divinity.

 

All of them are equally valid, and have just as much supportive evidence as the Bible does.

 

Two thousand [i'm being generous with that estimate] year old poetry isn't going to change my mind. You might as well be quoting Beowulf.

 

The Bible is not history, it's not even well written fiction. It's complete plagiarism to begin with. The first few sections of my post are evidence enough of that.

 

To put it simply, I don't care what the Book of Jude says any more than I care what Goku from Dragonball says. Seriously. I don't.

 

A majority of these forums are in complete agreement with that. I only say 'a majority' because you're not the only Christian poster.

 

We. Don't. Care.

 

We read it all before, and we got tired of reading it. It doesn't work, it's not magical, and basing your life and morals on that atrocity isn't a good thing.

 

It just makes you gullible and naive at best, and an evil, self centered, arrogant, manipulative, overbearing, controlling, tool at worst.

 

An all powerful, omnipotent, omnipresent being would care about as much about you or I as I do about a microbe living in my kitchen sink.

 

That is literally the kind of scale we're talking about here.

 

Bible God is a human invention, even if there is really a god. Such a being wouldn't be so petty or have such completely fallible and human emotions. Bible God is imperfect in many ways. He's a reflection of humanity, not it's creator.

 

He's a selfish, arrogant, petty, mean spirited, vain, megalomaniac, who wouldn't have the faintest inkling about love or kindness.

 

No loving God would provide rules for slavery and rape.

 

No loving god would willfully murder thousands of others for the offenses of but a few.

 

No loving God would tell his chosen people to act like pirates and commit genocide.

 

No loving God would allow women to be treated like cattle and property with no will of their own.

 

No loving god would send anyone to an -eternity- of torture for but a short period of misbehavior on this world.

 

No loving God would make someone a homosexual, and then punish them for how -he- made them.

 

No loving god would willfully hide all evidence of his existence for thousands of years, and then punish those who don't believe in him because of it.

 

What the Bible describes is an evil overbearing tyrant and monster. Not a loving caring deity. He blames his creations for the imperfections he made, the mistakes he made, the unreasonable standards he set.

 

I've no respect for any faith or God that holds belief above acts, words above deeds, and faith above character.

 

A good person, be it an Atheist, Muslim, Pagan, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, or Christian is far more deserving of heaven than any Christian that believes with all his heart and soul and commits horrible acts, using confession or repentance to cover them up.

 

Character and deeds are more important than beliefs and faith.

 

The two do not necessarily go together.

 

If there is a real god, and if he is truly a kind and loving being, he doesn't give shit one whether or not you believe in him. What a loving God would care about, is what you do with your time here, and his punishments would fit the crimes.

 

Eternity indeed. Rubbish.

 

That book isn't worth lining a vulture's cage with, much less to be used as a guide for morals and life.

 

If that is what God truly is, he's not worthy of worship. He's a primitive barbarian that humanity at it's worst has moved beyond in terms of morals.

 

At least they want to save their own, he intends to kill all of us. I'd prefer not spend my eternity anywhere near such a monster.

[Seeker630]

That is literally the kind of scale we're talking about here.

 

Bible God is a human invention, even if there is really a god. Such a being wouldn't be so petty or have such completely fallible and human emotions. Bible God is imperfect in many ways. He's a reflection of humanity, not it's creator.

 

He's a selfish, arrogant, petty, mean spirited, vain, megalomaniac, who wouldn't have the faintest inkling about love or kindness.

 

No loving God would provide rules for slavery and rape.

 

No loving god would willfully murder thousands of others for the offenses of but a few.

 

No loving God would tell his chosen people to act like pirates and commit genocide.

 

No loving God would allow women to be treated like cattle and property with no will of their own.

 

No loving god would send anyone to an -eternity- of torture for but a short period of misbehavior on this world.

 

No loving God would make someone a homosexual, and then punish them for how -he- made them.

 

No loving god would willfully hide all evidence of his existence for thousands of years, and then punish those who don't believe in him because of it.

 

What the Bible describes is an evil overbearing tyrant and monster. Not a loving caring deity. He blames his creations for the imperfections he made, the mistakes he made, the unreasonable standards he set.

 

I've no respect for any faith or God that holds belief above acts, words above deeds, and faith above character.

 

A good person, be it an Atheist, Muslim, Pagan, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, or Christian is far more deserving of heaven than any Christian that believes with all his heart and soul and commits horrible acts, using confession or repentance to cover them up.

 

Character and deeds are more important than beliefs and faith.

 

The two do not necessarily go together.

 

If there is a real god, and if he is truly a kind and loving being, he doesn't give shit one whether or not you believe in him. What a loving God would care about, is what you do with your time here, and his punishments would fit the crimes.

 

Eternity indeed. Rubbish.

 

That book isn't worth lining a vulture's cage with, much less to be used as a guide for morals and life.

 

If that is what God truly is, he's not worthy of worship. He's a primitive barbarian that humanity at it's worst has moved beyond in terms of morals.

 

At least they want to save their own, he intends to kill all of us. I'd prefer not spend my eternity anywhere near such a monster.

 

Goddammit---------what a wonderful post---------tack it down boy--------tack it down. He can't have any reasonable response to something like this.

[Abiyoyo]

At least they want to save their own, he intends to kill all of us. I'd prefer not spend my eternity anywhere near such a monster.

 

Land on 'chance' then. I tend to lean that way as well, yet I ponder some 'what if' situations here and there. One. We are of this world just as any other creature, yet we are very different than any other creature. This is just an obvious observation. Even without God in the loop, I would wonder exactly how in evolution did we become so much more advanced, and dominant in intelligence. When I say that I mean the obvious. The obvious is that we are intelligent enough to build structures far superior to any other creature on Earth, yet we are also intelligent enough to understand that we have to have limits of our 'industrial' drives in human nature, example, saving trees, recycling, etc.

 

The human mind in all it's knowledge and complexity does however come to terms of reality in the unknown. When I say this, I imply that we may 'think' this or that is good, yet it may not be. Pollution is a good example. 100-150 years ago, nobody 'thought' about the effects of pollution in a long term affect. The thing is the end results of human civilization are destructive and just apart of the process of nature. We have the ability to react upon emotions, as well as the physical characteristic of emotions.

 

Maybe God was a tyrant in the OT, maybe He was represented as a tyrant in the NT. The point is that for as many times as He is represented in these ways, He is also represented in the loving, caring, forgiving, understanding, God. It is in there though, and it usually actually goes against most Christian theology. Example, in the OT. The One, the Promised One from the seed of David was the one to bring a light to all mankind, for God. The twist of Isaiah along with other verses created the SuperChrist so to speak, and the indoctrination into Rome made it even more out of context. Rome needed stability, and this religion of Judaism was already recognized, acknowledged, and allowed as a belief, converting Rome into the doctrine of Christianity further, with a Holy One from their God, Jesus. All this in combination of the Oracle of Delphi speaking of it's delusion of prophecy, wisdom is due to the just on the Earth, which was assumed by the Emperor at the time, as the Christians.

 

Not much later was the religion made official in Rome, and the pagan temples, Greek God's temple started to be destroyed. To say the Bible is totally bogus, is totally bogus, as Christianity was an important factor in the history of Rome in that Era. If it was just all a scam, then I would assume that the Jews wouldn't have even been able to practice their religion to the degree they practiced. Remember, Judaism during the time of Christ was not during the Republic of Rome, it was during the empirical era of Roman history. Big difference. Granted, as with America, Rome still practiced freedoms of religions to certain extents, but they upheld Jewish law in regard. This is why the Jews would have to bring an accused to the local officials, because though they were regarded as a major religion, they were still within bounds of the government.

 

Now, this makes Judaism at the least verifiable as a major belief in this era, as if it was not I am sure that it would have been discredited and dissolved into muck. I do not deny that Christianity started to prosper and evolve into what it is today because of ''solidification'' of the belief into government ordinance, yet I do not believe it to be completely bogus as you put it forth to be, and it truly is not.

 

Maybe God was in character, just as we can be in character of kindness, pureness, love, compassion, anger, revenge. Maybe God is just God, and He doesn't need to convince anyone that He is God, but demands that His creation acknowledge Him. It may be irrational, but if He even be (a) God, or (a) God that put something different into us, making us 'this' way on Earth, ...the fact would still be that He would be a higher being than we. A humans lifespan is around 65-70 years. We are diminishing a book that was written at least 2500 years ago, at least. We have not fragments, but scrolls of the OT, that date to at least the 2500 years old. The underline fact is that you, nor I, can hardly know in the present if those scrolls, writings from 5-600 BC were copies from the originals from how ever many thousands of years ago. Or another outlook, even if they were copies of only a few hundred years before then; at some point, maybe not you, but I wonder if there was originals that were from the Book of the Law as mentioned in the OT, from the Temple.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Like talking to a wall...

[DarthOkkata]

Well, aside from addressing the semantics and not the issues...

 

There is no 'maybe' in God being portrayed as an evil tyrant. Read it, he -directly commands- rape, genocide, human sacrifice, pillaging, slavery, kidnapping, human sacrifice, and assorted other evils quite often.

 

The fact that he does something 'nice' sometimes is irrelevant. It's never enough to make up for the horrible other things he does.

 

If God was a person, he'd be a skitzophrenic, sociopathic, bi-polar, nightmare. A world criminal, human rights abusing, grudge holding, power hungry, controlling, dictator, that outdoes any in the world in terms of evil. This is not someone you'd want to be around for any length of time.

 

The fact that the Bible is culturally important doesn't validate it. It is still total BS and complete fantasy. The cultural importance of the book doesn't make it true any more than the cultural importance of Star Trek makes it true.

 

Yes, Star Trek is culturally important, despite it being a tale of pure fantasy. A great deal of today's most important technologies wouldn't exist without it. The Bible has just been around longer.

 

The 'humanity' of God is exactly the issue and a very good reason to believe that he's a human invention. He does not act like an omnipresent, omnipotent, and all powerful being. He acts like a human, flawed and emotional.

 

The simple fact is, that 'moral behavior' is caused by education, not faith. This is true throughout history. The more educated a culture is, the more civil it is.

 

God does not 'demand' that we acknowledge him in any way. In order to do that, he would need to provide proof that he was real and tell us directly that we should believe in him.

 

Your post indicates a base misunderstanding of what a 'demand' is. God demands nothing of us, at this point in history, he ignores us. He doesn't appear, ask anything of us, or show that he's real or actually exists to anyone. There's no evidence that he does.

 

Why is he hiding? You can't hide and make no contact, and then claim to make demands. Demands require interaction on some level. There is none with God. He doesn't hide from the people in the Bible. Why does he hide from us?

 

Is he afraid we'll nail him to a tree again? We should, he deserves it, but I doubt he's afraid of it.

 

I am also not 'spiritually deaf'. You are simply delusional. God is omnipotent, and omnipresent, I do not have the power to 'shut up' such a being, or ignore it if he -was- trying to speak to me.

 

Why the hell would I? That argument is intellectually hollow, arrogant, and insulting. It assumes to know things about me that no one could possibly know without actually being me.

 

It's a brushing off and belittling of reality to make the one making the argument feel better about themselves and make them seem superior. Despite the opposite being true. Delusions make believers inferior intellectually.

 

If you're hearing voices and talking to the invisible sky man, you are delusional.

 

You're right, we can't hear it. It's not because we don't want too either. It's because you're hearing things that aren't there. Allowing your own imagination to fool you into a comfortable and dangerous delusion.

 

To put it simply. You are crazy.

 

The Bible does not constitute evidence. It's not enough, especially considering all the things that are contradictory, incorrect, and fantastical in it. Plus the fact that it's obvious plagiarism doesn't help.

 

Why argue the semantics and avoid the real issues in the post? It's less than convincing.

 

We have more than 'fragments' of The Book of the Dead, plus many -other- sources for Horus. We have more than fragments that support Mythraism. The Vedas and other Hindu text are also remarkably well preserved and complete. There are also complete Greek and Roman text that support their gods. There are lots of complete religious text from all over the world.

 

The completeness of the Torah is unimpressive. It's not a singularity, but one of many such text. The completeness of religious text is a result of their cultural and political importance, not the other way around.

 

The simple fact is that God -is- a character, and a remarkably human one. That points to him being a human invention, not the other way around.

 

I see no reason to think that Bible God is any less a human invention than Zeus, Horus, Mithra, or any other ancient mythological being.

 

There's no evidence that points to otherwise. No more than any of those other Gods.

 

Maybe there is such a thing as God. I couldn't say if maybe there is such a thing one way or the other.

 

No, I am not Agnostic either. I am still thoroughly convinced that there isn't. That doesn't mean that I'm correct. I freely admit that I might be wrong about the existence of a God.

 

Bible God is another matter entirely. I refute that claim totally, and do not believe that I am incorrect in the slightest on that issue, I do not think that it is remotely possible that I am wrong. I feel I can state, with complete confidence, that Bible God is not real. Belief in that, and that we're somehow 'made in his image' is incredibly stupid.

 

Bible God was made in -our- image. Just like every other mythical deity.

 

Belief in 'God' is plausible on some level, I can't, nor do I wish to bother with refuting it. I also do not believe for a moment that there is a single human religion that has even the slightest understanding of who or what that being is. Belief in the Bible or it's image of God is total fallacy.

 

I also don't believe it is 'beyond our ability to understand', it is just 'beyond our current understanding' if it does exist. No religion has it right if it's true and such a thing is real.

 

Nor do I believe for a moment that it cares to notice such insignificant beings as ourselves. Stating that we 'hold dominion' over this world as if it's impressive in the grand scheme of the Universe is just silly.

 

Oooh. We control this particular Universal speck of dust. Wow. That's impressive. Sure.

 

We're fortunate, and there are other beings on this world with similar, even if less, intelligence. Chimps and Dolphins are remarkably close to our own intelligence levels. Dolphins are thought to have language, and Chimps can actually pass down learned knowledge to the next generation just as we do. Both are known to use tools, and that's just two such examples. Hell, even Parrots have intelligence comparable to a five year old human.

 

Our great intelligence is not so grand and unique as you seem to think it is. It is our greatest advantage, yes, but not so grand and unique as you're implying.

 

An omnipotent, omnipresent, all powerful being would not be so needy, petty, or pathetic as Bible God is.

 

There's no rationality there at all.

[Tabula Rasa]

What is the reason or reasons why you left the Christian faith? This is for research so please feel free to expound with as many reasons as it takes to explain your personal story of why.

 

I could go back and read old posts but would rather have it fresh.

 

Thanks!

 

Because the idea of eternal damnation is the most obscene and immoral thing imaginable, and because Yahweh, the god of the bible is a bloodthirsty psychopath who demands WORSHIP ME OR DIE!/BURN FOREVER!

 

I believe in God, and the aforementioned doctrines concerning him are the most insulting thing imaginable. To think that a being who is capable of creating an entire universe by sheer force of will , would be so cheap and petty that it'd kill and or eternally torture it's creations just because they didn't worship it is beyond obscene. Mere words cannot describe how foul such an idea is.(Fortunantly such a being doesn't take offense.)

 

Waves, if you want to see the real Word of God, put down that Bible, and go out and look up at the stars, look at the world around you.

 

Regardless of whtether or not a God exists, the universe is not run by a bloodthirsty monster named Yahweh.

[Abiyoyo]

Well, aside from addressing the semantics and not the issues...

 

1-There is no 'maybe' in God being portrayed as an evil tyrant. Read it, he -directly commands- rape, genocide, human sacrifice, pillaging, slavery, kidnapping, human sacrifice, and assorted other evils quite often.

 

The fact that he does something 'nice' sometimes is irrelevant. It's never enough to make up for the horrible other things he does.

 

If God was a person, he'd be a skitzophrenic, sociopathic, bi-polar, nightmare. A world criminal, human rights abusing, grudge holding, power hungry, controlling, dictator, that outdoes any in the world in terms of evil. This is not someone you'd want to be around for any length of time.

 

2-The fact that the Bible is culturally important doesn't validate it. It is still total BS and complete fantasy. The cultural importance of the book doesn't make it true any more than the cultural importance of Star Trek makes it true.

 

Yes, Star Trek is culturally important, despite it being a tale of pure fantasy. A great deal of today's most important technologies wouldn't exist without it. The Bible has just been around longer.

 

3-The 'humanity' of God is exactly the issue and a very good reason to believe that he's a human invention. He does not act like an omnipresent, omnipotent, and all powerful being. He acts like a human, flawed and emotional.

 

The simple fact is, that 'moral behavior' is caused by education, not faith. This is true throughout history. The more educated a culture is, the more civil it is.

 

God does not 'demand' that we acknowledge him in any way. In order to do that, he would need to provide proof that he was real and tell us directly that we should believe in him.

 

Your post indicates a base misunderstanding of what a 'demand' is. God demands nothing of us, at this point in history, he ignores us. He doesn't appear, ask anything of us, or show that he's real or actually exists to anyone. There's no evidence that he does.

 

Why is he hiding? You can't hide and make no contact, and then claim to make demands. Demands require interaction on some level. There is none with God. He doesn't hide from the people in the Bible. Why does he hide from us?

 

Is he afraid we'll nail him to a tree again? We should, he deserves it, but I doubt he's afraid of it.

 

I am also not 'spiritually deaf'. You are simply delusional. God is omnipotent, and omnipresent, I do not have the power to 'shut up' such a being, or ignore it if he -was- trying to speak to me.

 

Why the hell would I? That argument is intellectually hollow, arrogant, and insulting. It assumes to know things about me that no one could possibly know without actually being me.

 

It's a brushing off and belittling of reality to make the one making the argument feel better about themselves and make them seem superior. Despite the opposite being true. Delusions make believers inferior intellectually.

 

If you're hearing voices and talking to the invisible sky man, you are delusional.

 

You're right, we can't hear it. It's not because we don't want too either. It's because you're hearing things that aren't there. Allowing your own imagination to fool you into a comfortable and dangerous delusion.

 

To put it simply. You are crazy.

 

The Bible does not constitute evidence. It's not enough, especially considering all the things that are contradictory, incorrect, and fantastical in it. Plus the fact that it's obvious plagiarism doesn't help.

 

Why argue the semantics and avoid the real issues in the post? It's less than convincing.

 

We have more than 'fragments' of The Book of the Dead, plus many -other- sources for Horus. We have more than fragments that support Mythraism. The Vedas and other Hindu text are also remarkably well preserved and complete. There are also complete Greek and Roman text that support their gods. There are lots of complete religious text from all over the world.

 

The completeness of the Torah is unimpressive. It's not a singularity, but one of many such text. The completeness of religious text is a result of their cultural and political importance, not the other way around.

 

The simple fact is that God -is- a character, and a remarkably human one. That points to him being a human invention, not the other way around.

 

I see no reason to think that Bible God is any less a human invention than Zeus, Horus, Mithra, or any other ancient mythological being.

 

There's no evidence that points to otherwise. No more than any of those other Gods.

 

Maybe there is such a thing as God. I couldn't say if maybe there is such a thing one way or the other.

 

No, I am not Agnostic either. I am still thoroughly convinced that there isn't. That doesn't mean that I'm correct. I freely admit that I might be wrong about the existence of a God.

 

Bible God is another matter entirely. I refute that claim totally, and do not believe that I am incorrect in the slightest on that issue, I do not think that it is remotely possible that I am wrong. I feel I can state, with complete confidence, that Bible God is not real. Belief in that, and that we're somehow 'made in his image' is incredibly stupid.

 

Bible God was made in -our- image. Just like every other mythical deity.

 

Belief in 'God' is plausible on some level, I can't, nor do I wish to bother with refuting it. I also do not believe for a moment that there is a single human religion that has even the slightest understanding of who or what that being is. Belief in the Bible or it's image of God is total fallacy.

 

4-I also don't believe it is 'beyond our ability to understand', it is just 'beyond our current understanding' if it does exist. No religion has it right if it's true and such a thing is real.

 

Nor do I believe for a moment that it cares to notice such insignificant beings as ourselves. Stating that we 'hold dominion' over this world as if it's impressive in the grand scheme of the Universe is just silly.

 

Oooh. We control this particular Universal speck of dust. Wow. That's impressive. Sure.

 

We're fortunate, and there are other beings on this world with similar, even if less, intelligence. Chimps and Dolphins are remarkably close to our own intelligence levels. Dolphins are thought to have language, and Chimps can actually pass down learned knowledge to the next generation just as we do. Both are known to use tools, and that's just two such examples. Hell, even Parrots have intelligence comparable to a five year old human.

 

Our great intelligence is not so grand and unique as you seem to think it is. It is our greatest advantage, yes, but not so grand and unique as you're implying.

 

An omnipotent, omnipresent, all powerful being would not be so needy, petty, or pathetic as Bible God is.

 

There's no rationality there at all.

 

1- When I say that Bible God is just as 'nice' as you put as He is in the other character, I am sort of underlining a simple fact. This fact is that these writings were written by people;..people that characterized God. Basically, is the glass half empty or half full. To say that the Bible God is in a certain character shows the lack of understanding of the God of the Bible. Is He suppose to be characterized? Is the God described in the Bible, and his character, the true, 100% accurate representation of this God? Is you say yes, then I would like to see your source. If your source is of any source, then we would have to lay ALL the cards out so to speak. I just skipped all this to keep the post kind of simple since I felt that understanding was not present in your posts.

 

Furthermore, Who ever said that every word of the Bible is the direct words of God, or the direct, authentic representation of God? Did God write the rest of the law, or just the 10 commandments? Read again, God carved the tablets, which had the ten commandments, then the others followed...., read carefully. There is always room for gray area, and open thought; and unfortunately, most church going Christians are not open minded to ponder on notions like this, ...because according to many, the Bible is infallible.

 

2- One, I understand your position, but also contend using Star Trek as a comparison. That is a bit crazy. It is a fact that Israel, along with Christianity, ..are NOT fantasy as far as a belief system, and religion in this world. They may be fantasy as far as content, but have been around much longer than you or I.

 

3- Again, lets say hypothetically God of the Bible is a real God, and lets even say that He is the only One True God. Do you mean omni-benevolent? Why is He omni-benevolent? Because the Bible says so? The Bible says he is a God of the righteous and just, and will avenge His enemies, more so than it does His omni-benevolence. Your point is not worded correctly. God can still be omni-potent, and omni-present and still be a angry God, Right? He actually could still be omni-benevolent also, and avenge His 'enemies', so to speak; if, ...you know who the enemy really is. Is the enemy a human being? Can a human being that He loved be enemy to God? Or is it Satan's influence through mankind?

 

Another problem is that you are one sided along with anyone else who will say that God is omni everything, and doesn't fit the bill, as well as an evil tyrant according to the 'Bible". This is all under interpretation of the author. Even the good attributes are under interpretation. Some say that is cherry picking; but I disagree. It is just common sense. A human being wrote the Bible, and described God in their words, even in prophecies their are 'abnormal' passages that characterize God. One note I will add is that if you look beyond the characterizations given to God throughout the OT, you will notice other verses; like the one where God says that 'his people' speak words of Him that are not His words. So, then it comes down to if God is omni everything, which remember is human and theological attributes based on human writing about 'God'; it is all up for further interpretation and thought, which would be judged unfairly if the whole picture isn't included. Another problem with omni's is that it gives the idea based on the 100% God directed Bible, that he is not omni everything, since he is portrayed badly in areas of the Bible, and the Bible totally contradicts itself in many areas. BUT, He didn't write it, humans did. Maybe it is suppose to be that way. There are many scriptures within the Bible that will confirm that to a certain degree as well, from Isaiah to the Gospels. Even Christ called God and His way, Book; a mystery.

 

My last point on the omni's is that if God is omni anything, it is within the confines of human thought, and in my human thoughts I can determine that even if God was omni everything, He could just be still forever and still be omni everything, to Himself. Does God answer to us? Would an omni-potent, omni-present, omni-benevolent God answer to finite creation, whether He made us or not. Omni simply means 'all'. He is 'all'. In my human mind I can understand that any attribute of omni to God would be with the interpretation that He is just 'all'.

 

4-It may be silly to a God, that is eternal, but to me, it is not. Just common sense. Can a dolphin build a skyscraper? Can they design a device that helps them travel faster? We are smarter, period; and any deviations is just ludicrous. The only way that I would even say that a dolphin is as smart as a human is on the level of adaption and survival. They among other species will build a home, will eat, feed their young, become comfortable to the extent of whatever comfortability they understand, but we are far superior. We maybe have evolved from being comfortable going to sleep on the dirt, with our arms for a pillow, to todays standards of comfortability; yet we have the extended knowledge to do this. This is not a survival evolution trait that was passed down for millions of years, this is just simply our sensitivities and mental capacity to produce a better sleep environment, to suit our direct needs of that lifespan. Technology, inventions, thought process all contribute to the accessibility of these comforts.

 

Example, a dog. A dog may sleep on the ground for its entire lifespan, and be okay. Generations of dogs would do this. Now, if a human places the dog on a porch, it has a choice, ground or porch. Same if a human gave it a soft bed type sleep environment. Yes, the dog may love the softer sleep place and even never want to sleep elsewhere, but it is only within the confines of their ability to process comfort, desire it, and then obtain it individually. They may process it, and they desire it, but the obtaining of the comforts is limited to their physical attributes, and extended thought process of creativity and inventing. We on the other hand have the ability to create, to think, to ponder, to see it through, mentally; and we have the ability to place that into a motion in this physical environment, with only the limitations of the technology present with our era.

 

My main point was that the Bible can't be diced apart as a false representation of God just as much as it can't be diced apart to represent the true, and good representation of God. It is a book, that was written by a group of people that claimed to have had contact with this God, in which they claim was the One True God, and the rest is writings by people describing God in whatever way they saw fit to describe Him, or whatever way the 'felt' they should describe Him.

 

I will add that I am glad you brought up how delusional a person is that 'hears' from God. I agree. I agree because even if God was speaking to them, they would never fully understand the purpose of His communication to them until they were with Him in another life. The reason I say they are truly delusional is because human nature is to reason, and rationalize everything; even a voice that we hear that 'feels' like nothing we ever heard before in our life. We want to make sense of things, and we can't.

 

Yes, you are correct, we, along with Earth, are but a speck of this glorious universe; and we do hold dominion over this speck of the universe, called Earth; and yes we probably would be delusional physical human beings if God 'spoke' to us simply because if God is real then He is God and I could not begin to understand the 'why's' of why God would speak to me, and not speak to anyone else.

[Robbobrob]

To put it simply, tossing verses about here is about as effective as quoting Monty Python and the Holy Grail at us, with great big pointy teeth.

I would argue that tossing verses from Monty Python and the Holy Grail would be far more effective on here....at least we'd have far more fun with it.....

 

God: What are you doing now?

King Arthur: Averting our eyes, oh Lord.

God: Well, don't. It's just like those miserable psalms, always so depressing. Now knock it off!

[DarthOkkata]

If the Bible is not real, if the Bible is not true, if the Bible is not absolutely accurate, then Christianity is total BS.

 

This always bothers me about moderate Christians. I tend to not call them on it because they're moderate, and usually don't bother others with their own faith, or ususally aren't pushy about it when they do.

 

If the story of Genesis and Adam and Even in the Garden of Eden isn't true and is just some sort of 'symbolism'...why did Jesus die?

 

Without the story of Genesis and Eden to support it, the story of Jesus, his death and resurrection are invalidated completely. There's no reason for it to happen if that isn't completely true. The Old Testament of the Bible needs to be literally true for the New Testament to make any sense or to be valid in any way. There's not really another option here. It's set up so that without one being literally true, the other has no grounding or basis for truth or fact at all. There's no reason or need for a Messaiah at all without Genesis, and to some degree Exodus, being completely literally true.

 

By the standards you presented, Star Trek is just as 'real' as Christianity. It exists, it's content is pure fantasy, yet it still exists. How long it's been around comparatively is an irrelevant issue. The comparison was valid as it was presented in my post. There are even people who follow it's teachings, it along with Star Wars are remarkably close to being cults and religions in their own right on some levels.

 

As for your thoughts on the Bible. To be honest, you sound more like an Agnostic or Deist than a Christian in your arguments. If you're not using the Bible as 'truth' or viewing it as 'God's Word', then you're not really a Christian. Not in the normal sense of the word anyway.

 

Thinking of forming a splinter group? You're doing a lot of bending over, jumping through hoops, and making odd rationalizations here.

 

Our ability to create and build has as much to do with our environment, and body structure, as it does with our intelligence. Opposable thumbs, fingers, and having stable ground and an atmosphere that we can breathe easily in and that doesn't wash things away quickly has as much to do with building skyscrapers and other human inventions as our brain's do.

 

Some things have multiple causes.

 

You're also vastly underestimating the mental capacity of dogs. Given a choice, they will choose a comfortable environment. Even in the wild, they would prefer sleeping in a cave or den as opposed to sleeping in the open on the dirt. They do seek out comfort and easier prey, just as much as you might if you were in such a situation. They do make choices, and are aware of them. Dogs are self aware creatures that make decisions and seek out comfort and easier lifestyles when they can.

 

Survival is a lot of work and an immediate problem for wild Dogs. They aren't insects or reptiles, that rely only on stimulus and instinct alone. Dogs are emotional and social creatures that seek out comfort where they can find it like any other intelligent mammal.

 

I never stated that Dolphins and Apes matched our mental capacity. I was only pointing out that they come much closer than you were implying. We are not wildly unique in our intelligence, but are rather 'mildly unique'. Dolphins are probably about as intelligent as a 16-17 year old human. It's believed that they 'speak' in sonar images as opposed to 'words' as we do. Their environment doesn't allow for construction on the scale of humans, and their body structure doesn't really allow for it either. I'm confident that as land animals with fingers, they would be builders. Primitive ones perhaps, but I see no reason to doubt that they would.

 

I also feel I should point out Neanderthal man. Who we were not related to directly. They died out, probably because we killed them off, but they aren't part of our ancestral line. So, no, our intelligence is not unique at all.

 

If the Bible is invalid, incorrect, and as fallible as you say it is. Why follow it? Why is it still relevant to you? If it's as you say, obviously filled with human ideas, Bronze Age ideas at that, why still value it? What other Bronze Age philosophies do you still use today? Even as a human understanding of God it's got no value if it's as untrustworthy as you say. It has no practical use.

 

As I said, you sound more Agnostic than Christian. You've just named your 'unknowable God' Jesus for no apparent reason.

 

You seem to have a very New Age view on Christianity. You've basically stated that the Bible is not really valid as anything more than a Bronze Age philosophy book, with nothing more than anthropological value.

 

So why live by or use it's tennets, or adhere to it's view of God at all? That makes no sense. Given what you've posted here, I would only call you Christian in the loosest sense of the term. You seem at odds with that system of beliefs, and simply use the terminology of it to express your own beliefs for some reason. Why?

 

There's nothing wrong with being Deist, and you don't sound much like a Christian here. I'd even go so far as to say some of what you posted counts as Blasphemy in Christian terms.

[Kuroikaze]

I also feel I should point out Neanderthal man. Who we were not related to directly. They died out, probably because we killed them off, but they aren't part of our ancestral line. So, no, our intelligence is not unique at all.

 

I hate to nitpick (who am I kidding ) as it doesn't impact your point but scientists are divided on whether or not Neanderthal died out or interbred with us. From what I have read there is genetic evidence of the latter but it won't be certain until they finish the working on the neanderthal genome.

[DarthOkkata]

Perhaps a bit of both? That's entirely possible as well.

[DarthOkkata]

I am left wondering if we've scared off the OP or if they've just not visited us in a few days.

 

Waves has gone all quiet on us.

 

Leaves me wondering if fishing for guppies and getting mauled by sharks in the process has left an impression.

 

Guess we're too much trouble to reel in. Waves should have brought a bigger boat.