Amethyst Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 What I fear is the government will even more than now tell us what we can or can't eat, and will forbid alternative treatments. They've been telling us what to eat for years. It's called the food pyramid. Most people tend to ignore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 What I fear is the government will even more than now tell us what we can or can't eat, and will forbid alternative treatments. They've been telling us what to eat for years. It's called the food pyramid. Most people tend to ignore it. True, but I could see them banning certain foods "for our own good"; or making non-conventional medical treatments outlawed. Look at the medical marijuana issue for example. But then I see the down side of everything......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 A large part of the reason these costs are so high is because of litigation. If we cut down on litigation, we could control health care costs a lot better. This is the problem that comes as a result of living in a society that allows law suits. Granted, not all law suits are frivolous, but we need to cut down on them. I don't know. I've heard this said a lot... but I have my doubts. Sounds like lobbyist-talk to me. Not sure I'd want to go down the road of denying people the right to sue for damages- especially for something as personal and potentially destructive as medical malpractice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Scorpion -- Great post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 A large part of the reason these costs are so high is because of litigation. If we cut down on litigation, we could control health care costs a lot better. This is the problem that comes as a result of living in a society that allows law suits. Granted, not all law suits are frivolous, but we need to cut down on them. I don't know. I've heard this said a lot... but I have my doubts. Sounds like lobbyist-talk to me. Not sure I'd want to go down the road of denying people the right to sue for damages- especially for something as personal and potentially destructive as medical malpractice. I'm not saying denying people the right to sue for damages, but we for sure need to cut down on the frivolous cases. It is what is causing health care costs to skyrocket, among other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpion Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 People, Healthcare in America is not expensive because of frivolous lawsuits, it expensive because it is PRIVATE!!! Think about it, people! What leverage power do you have against a pharmaceutical company or a health insurance company? None! You need them more than they need you! You're one person against thousands. So you shut up and pay the price and they are more than happy to squeeze every last penny out of you and, when you need them, leave you out to dry with no remorse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 And when the government takes over, people working the system will squeezes every dime out of it. It'll be nice and inefficient. Cost over runs? Just look at the military and see how fiscally responsible it is. Yep, and guess who will be paying for it...that's right, tax payers. Of course if your a damn lay about, a baby factory, or an illegal it really will be free. The rest of us will have to take of thier sorry asses who demand something for nothing. Gee, I look forward to paying even more in taxes for people that don't pay any taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixolite Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 If the U.S. were to adopt a single-payer government subsidized health care system that covers everyone, than something absolutely intolerable would happen. Some people “unworthy” of such care might get access to it! Many Americans would rather 45 million remain uninsured than accept the possibility that one illegal alien might slip through cracks and get an aspirin on the government’s dime. I doubt that would be different from slipping through right now. Here everyone (government health care) gets an insurance card, i.e.: Of course you need certain documents to get one. You need to bring it to the doc, so an illegal would either have to pay privately or to get an insurance card from someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixolite Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 What I fear is the government will even more than now tell us what we can or can't eat, and will forbid alternative treatments. They've been telling us what to eat for years. It's called the food pyramid. Most people tend to ignore it. True, but I could see them banning certain foods "for our own good"; or making non-conventional medical treatments outlawed. Look at the medical marijuana issue for example. But then I see the down side of everything......... Take a look at all the countries where we have "socialistic" healthcare, neither have outlawed certain foods, nor alternative medicine (you just have to pay for it yourself). I doubt it would be differently in the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 The issue is moot. Your father always told you money doesn't grow on trees, but somehow those in favor of government sponsored health care think that for the government it actually does. Supporters should have banded together and fought the bailout since this was a deal breaker for any hope for a health plan. We gave the cash to the banks instead. If you want to understand just where the US is fiscally, spend a little time on the TBT message board. TBT is the ticker symbol for 20-year bonds. Bonds have been getting killed and interest rates are going up because the government is trying to raise capital in the form of massive bond auctions. Problem is, they are selling more than demand can soak up, so in other words, the government doesn't have any alternative source of revenue or way to borrow more money at this point. http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_(...tof=1&frt=2 The Fed dilemma here is that if they sell more bonds, bond rates will keep going higher, which means that interest rates go up. The Fed has already lowered the rates to almost 0 but borrower rates aren't set primarily based on how cheaply the Fed loans money to the banks, it's also set by bond rates. To simplify, this means that the more government debt the higher loan rates will be and the less money that will be loaned to businesses and homeowners, which spells death to the economy. And the bailouts aren't even done. The credit card companies and states like CA are next and after that comes a bond ratings cut like the UK just got. So where exactly is the money going to come from to pay for health care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 28, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted May 28, 2009 I don't know the answer, but obviously something has to change. The private sector makes too much money to want to change anything. Government run systems work elsewhere to varying degrees. Rather than pay $700 a month for health insurance, I'd be happy to drop that and pay an extra $200 a month in taxes to be covered by a government system. The "socialized medicine" we already have has been around a long time, but it doesn't serve everyone. Sure, they make mistakes and have waste and inefficiency, but so does private industry. When nobody can afford private insurance anymore, the industry will be asking for handouts like the auto manufacturers and others. They will still get our tax money, but it will take more than if it went to government healthcare in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 So where exactly is the money going to come from to pay for health care? Well, I guess we have to invent money trees... any biotech engineer out there taking the challenge? I'm not against federal healthcare per se, but I totally agree with you Vigile, we can't afford it right now. And I hated the bailout from the first moment I heard about it. If they needed to stimulate the market, they should have put the money into supporting new industry and small companies, or given that money to the consumers to buy the cars (federal discount to buy American, money would go to the same place eventually, but for the right reasons). The small and new companies are the ones who will bring it on in the next round of market upswing, but now we bet all our money on the losers instead. I don't see any turnaround in a very, very long time. Besides, another problem is that the group who needs the help is growing fast, while the group who will pay for federal healthcare is shrinking, and with less pay, and the same debts as before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RationalOkie Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Obama hasn’t called for such a government-run plan, also called a “single-payer" plan. In fact, he has flatly rejected it. The administration has said on the White House’s “Health Care” Web page (and previously on its transition site) that “President Obama and Vice President Biden believe” that government-run health care is “wrong.” And they also believe, the administration says, that the other extreme, “letting the insurance companies operate without rules,” is wrong. Obama has long said he would allow individuals or small businesses to buy insurance through a public plan – like the one now available to members of Congress. Quoted from http://www.factcheck.org/politics/governme...ealth_care.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpion Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 “President Obama and Vice President Biden believe” that government-run health care is “wrong.” The citizens of every other industrialized country just collectivelly facepalmed. Obama has long said he would allow individuals or small businesses to buy insurance through a public plan – like the one now available to members of Congress. Ah, the power of lobbying, ain't it wonderfull? IRT everyone who talked about "inneficiency": I dunno about you, but I think it is far better to have inneficient healthcare than non-existing healthcare. And that's assuming that that government-run healthcare IS inneficient, which is a long stretch, considering the history of public, governamental healthcare IN EVERY INDUSTRIALIZED NATION EXCEPT THE US! To all the free-market fundamentalists out there, the fact is that there are certain areas of activity where the profit motive is counter-productive. Healthcare is one of them, but also the military, law enforcement, etc... Do you agree with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RationalOkie Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Scorpion - I agree with you. I was just pointing out that there IS NO PLAN FOR A UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE system. Even the media is calling it that and they are wrong. You would think that THEY would at least do some basic research first e.g, http://www.factcheck.org/politics/governme...ealth_care.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Actually there IS a very simple "universal health care" plan that works just fine. You, sick or injured, go see your Doc. You and your Doc work out transaction deal, amounts and payments. Take care of bill howevber you decide between you. "OMFG!~!!!! THAT KANT NOT WORK NUNN!!!!!!!!!!" Seems prior to rise of GiangantHealthInsKo and Fed.org Meddlecare and the layers upon twists buried in reams of unaccountable misunderstoon paperwork, "it" did. For you *fans* of government driven healthcare, feel free to look up what existed prior to this past four decades of mis-management. You will absolutely hate the results you find. Better time, even? Look up "Harrison Act, 1914" and subsequent laws. You will find the long bony fingers of State wrapped in a Puritans Glove of Iron reaching for your tender bits and much farther into your earnings. Awwww, fukit. "Free" is so much better. Guess I oughta quit bitching about O'Bomber/Hillarykare and get my ass into line.. kFuckin'L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpion Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Actually there IS a very simple "universal health care" plan that works just fine. You, sick or injured, go see your Doc. You and your Doc work out transaction deal, amounts and payments. Take care of bill howevber you decide between you. Of course it works fine... for those who can afford it. "OMFG!~!!!! THAT KANT NOT WORK NUNN!!!!!!!!!!" That last sentence was uncalled for. We're having a calm, reasoned debate here. There are lots of ways of conducting one. Demeaning your opponents isn't one of 'em. Seems prior to rise of GiangantHealthInsKo and Fed.org Meddlecare and the layers upon twists buried in reams of unaccountable misunderstoon paperwork, "it" did. Once again, I argue that bad government is not necessarilly fixed with no government, but instead with better government. For you *fans* of government driven healthcare, feel free to look up what existed prior to this past four decades of mis-management. You will absolutely hate the results you find. Better time, even? Look up "Harrison Act, 1914" and subsequent laws. You will find the long bony fingers of State wrapped in a Puritans Glove of Iron reaching for your tender bits and much farther into your earnings. For you detractors of government healthcare, feel free to look at Scandinavia. Check-mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 For you detractors of government healthcare, feel free to look at Scandinavia. Yes, I remember the days when I paid 67% in tax... that's why I moved to US... Btw, there are problems in the Swedish healthcare, it's not only sunshine and happy faces: http://my.opera.com/ekehog/blog/index.dml/tag/sjukv%C3%A5rd Efter 9 månader i kön till arbetsprovet och tre år sedan mitt första besök för besvär med hjärtat så kommer jag att förhoppningsvis att få möta en hjärtspecialist som ställer diagnos. Och då blir jag upptagen i de privilierades sällskap, jag blir omfattad av vårdgarantin! Jag kan ställa krav på adekvat behandling inom tre månader! Det var en djäkla tur att jag inte var sjuk, för då kunde jag ju ha dött under de här åren! Translates to: After 9 months in line to the "work test" [not sure what it is] and three years since my first visit for heart problems, I am going to--hopefully--meet a heart specialist who can diagnose me. And then I will be accepted into the privileged group, and included in the "care guarantee." I can demand adequate treatment within three months! That was a hell of a good luck that I wasn't sick, because then I would have died anytime the last couple of years. And he got no options. He must use public health care--or move to another country with private institutions, if he can afford it... which he probably can't, since he probably pay more than 50% of his income to pay for his lack of health care. He's one voice out of many. There is a rising concern about the public health care in Sweden, and the Socialists are fighting hard to keep it, but the push is strong for privatization. So... no, it's not always that good. Public health care, which I realized while living there, is primarily for the large work class who can produce. My grandma was mistreated. My mom was too. But my dad was treated well though. It's all pick and choose. I just don't want anyone to have the illusion of some "perfect" health care, just because it's state controlled. Maybe by the time we have socialized medicine in US, Sweden will have private? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godsfavoritecolor Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Yes, I remember the days when I paid 67% in tax... that's why I moved to US... Was that your marginal tax rate? And what was your total income in current US dollars? Did you pay sales tax, property tax, any other taxes? My income is upper middle class. My marginal tax rate is over 42% here in the US, and I don’t get free healthcare. But, I’m not starving and I’m not whining about the taxes I pay. I’m better off than most Americans. I have health insurance. And I believe that everyone in the richest country in the world has the right to adequate healthcare whether he can pay for it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Vigile do you think Obama is going to let reality get in the way of his nanny state ambitions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godsfavoritecolor Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Right to life IS it! (You say ba naa na, I say ba nah na). Citizens in the US are killed by government neglect every day. It does not obligate the state or anyone to keep you alive especially if you are self destructive. Sing me that tune if you ever become indigent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 We won't have an operating economy, but by George we will know ourselves to be morally superior people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Burned you don't get it. You are a heartless bastard. You want people to go without healthcare. They have the moral high ground. Checkmate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Can't leave you out my man. You have to pay for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godsfavoritecolor Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Burnedout, what would you do for healthcare if you became indigent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts