No Longer Suffering

[Skeptic]

Never mind. Dissociating isn't working for me. It didn't work before, it's not working now, and it's never going to work.

[Skeptic]

Threatening suicide and turning over the responsibility for life or death to an unwilling and untrained other person is MY definition of causing hurt.

 

But I'm not unwilling. Maybe I was at the time, I don't remember, but I'm not now. I could have done so much more and I didn't. I could have empathized with her. I could have tried to make myself vulnerable and told her about my own problems and how I felt about them. I could have hugged her and cared for her. Instead, I closed myself off. I pushed her away. I obviously told her some horrible thing that I can't remember for the life of me that caused her so much hurt. You should have seen the look on her face. It was resigned. Her whole demeanor spoke volumes. That much I remember. I was the only one who saw it. No one else did. No one else knew why she did it but me.

[hereticzero]

Hi Skeptic.

 

You sound really depressed.

 

Are you codependent?

 

I am asking because my wife is codependent. She said I could describe some of her problems with you. Codependency people depend on themselves making others happy in order to receive satisfaction and be happy. When codependent people are unable to make others happy, they feel awfully depressed, like they lead a worthless life. Codependent people like it when others confide in them because they become happy if they can cheer the other person up. Sometimes this codependency comes from being raised in a strict household where parents demean or otherwise control how you feel about others and yourself. There is more to it than this simple description. Codependent people are very loving in relationships and they are good listeners.

[pitchu]

Threatening suicide and turning over the responsibility for life or death to an unwilling and untrained other person is MY definition of causing hurt.

 

But I'm not unwilling. Maybe I was at the time, I don't remember, but I'm not now. I could have done so much more and I didn't. I could have empathized with her. I could have tried to make myself vulnerable and told her about my own problems and how I felt about them. I could have hugged her and cared for her. Instead, I closed myself off. I pushed her away. I obviously told her some horrible thing that I can't remember for the life of me that caused her so much hurt. You should have seen the look on her face. It was resigned. Her whole demeanor spoke volumes. That much I remember. I was the only one who saw it. No one else did. No one else knew why she did it but me.

 

I don't think you could have done so much more. You're not a professional, and that's what she needed. You also could not have been then who you are now.

 

Why would you choose to punish the current Skeptic for the ineptitude of the previous Skeptic (who was in a situation that was waaay over his head)? If a friend came to you and described the example of how he'd hurt another person, exactly as you described it, you would most likely tell that friend to gain perspective and release himself from the hurt of guilt. Try to do as much for yourself, Skep.

[Skeptic]

You're not a professional, and that's what she needed.

 

I know what she needed. She needed a friend. She needed someone who cared about her. No one else did. She had two "professionals" already working on her and failing miserably.

 

You also could not have been then who you are now.

 

Yeah, I've grown a lot since then. So? I was a good person then and I'm a good person now, when I choose to be. I was empathetic then and I'm empathetic now. That hasn't changed. No amount of trauma has changed that for me and it never will. I could have stepped into those shoes. I know full well that I could have.

 

Why would you choose to punish the current Skeptic for the ineptitude of the previous Skeptic (who was in a situation that was waaay over his head)?

 

I'm not a guy (I could see how you would get that impression, though, so I'm not mad). I punish the current me because the previous me was so blind. Apparently, that's something that most people here can't see.

 

If a friend came to you and described the example of how he'd hurt another person, exactly as you described it, you would most likely tell that friend to gain perspective and release himself from the hurt of guilt. Try to do as much for yourself, Skep.

 

No, I wouldn't. I would empathize with him, I would agree that what he did wasn't the best option, and I would help him fix it, give him encouragement, or talk to him if he needed. If he didn't want that, then I would give him space to figure it out for himself.

 

You guys do what you're told. That much is apparent to me. You've heard somewhere that if someone is suicidal, you should call 911 and you've taken that to heart. Doing what you're told isn't a bad thing, but it's just not something that I do. I am a rebel. I figure out what to do and do it for myself whether it's what's socially acceptable or not. It's probably caused me a lot of grief, but I do it anyway because that's just how I am. I can't change that and I don't want to. I'm not mad at anyone here for saying what they did. You tried to help me and that was enough for me. That was admirable and I really appreciate that. We just have differing opinions. That's all.

[pitchu]

You're not a professional, and that's what she needed.

 

I know what she needed. She needed a friend. She needed someone who cared about her. No one else did. She had two "professionals" already working on her and failing miserably.

 

You also could not have been then who you are now.

 

Yeah, I've grown a lot since then. So? I was a good person then and I'm a good person now, when I choose to be. I was empathetic then and I'm empathetic now. That hasn't changed. No amount of trauma has changed that for me and it never will. I could have stepped into those shoes. I know full well that I could have.

 

Why would you choose to punish the current Skeptic for the ineptitude of the previous Skeptic (who was in a situation that was waaay over his head)?

 

I'm not a guy (I could see how you would get that impression, though, so I'm not mad). I punish the current me because the previous me was so blind. Apparently, that's something that most people here can't see.

 

If a friend came to you and described the example of how he'd hurt another person, exactly as you described it, you would most likely tell that friend to gain perspective and release himself from the hurt of guilt. Try to do as much for yourself, Skep.

 

No, I wouldn't. I would empathize with him, I would agree that what he did wasn't the best option, and I would help him fix it, give him encouragement, or talk to him if he needed. If he didn't want that, then I would give him space to figure it out for himself.

 

You guys do what you're told. That much is apparent to me. You've heard somewhere that if someone is suicidal, you should call 911 and you've taken that to heart. Doing what you're told isn't a bad thing, but it's just not something that I do. I am a rebel. I figure out what to do and do it for myself whether it's what's socially acceptable or not. It's probably caused me a lot of grief, but I do it anyway because that's just how I am. I can't change that and I don't want to. I'm not mad at anyone here for saying what they did. You tried to help me and that was enough for me. That was admirable and I really appreciate that. We just have differing opinions. That's all.

 

Sorry for misidentifying you as "he," Skeptic.

 

Sorry for not understanding that you're on a path you prefer.

 

Sorry that you think of us as people who do what we're told, because, if that were the case, we would all still be christians.

[florduh]

You guys do what you're told. That much is apparent to me. You've heard somewhere that if someone is suicidal, you should call 911 and you've taken that to heart.

 

That's not a case of doing what you're told. It's doing something that has proven to be the correct thing to do. We learn what works and what doesn't, and apply the best solution available to a given situation.

 

Calling 911 isn't a piece of folklore blindly followed by people who don't know any better. It's proven to be the best thing to do when immediate professional intervention is needed to do the things we're not equipped to do effectively.

[noob]

Dear Skeptic, I am wondering if your expectations of what you can get from an internet forum are way too high. First, I would like to say that I think everyone here is trying to be supportive and understanding. However, please understand that we don’t really know you and we cannot understand exactly what you have experienced and where you are coming from with these tiny little posts. Who you are is so much more than what we can glean here.

 

I’m feeling your frustration and angst coming through, but I am also seeing that your approach is not serving you well. People are taking their time to try to be supportive and encouraging. But your responses to them come across as dismissive, rude and condescending. You might not mean it that way, but that is how it seems. I don’t want to be harsh, but I hope you will consider that some of what you perceive as “hurting” others could stem from the way you communicate with them.

 

I’ve thought about you a lot over the last couple of days. Although I told you I still carried childhood baggage at my great old age, I have learned a few things through the years! One thing I’ve learned about myself, that you might consider as well, is that I am really not all that powerful or important in other people’s lives. Don’t get me wrong, I am well liked, I have lots of friends, and I do some good deeds. But, for the most part, what I do, what I say, who I am, is simply not that important to other people. I do not have the power to really hurt them.

 

I have never had to deal with anything like your experience with your suicidal friend and I imagine it was horrible for both of you. Yet, in my personal opinion, from what I have read here, I think you take way too much responsibility for what happened. You may see this as a pat, Pollyanna answer, but again, my experience tells me that we do not have any control over the actions of others. Yes, you can be a friend. Yes, you can be supportive. But, people will do what they have determined to do. And, even if you failed her miserably, you are human, you make mistakes, and life goes on. You are punishing yourself but to what avail? Will it help your friend for you to continue to torture yourself? You cannot change what happened. You learn from it. The end.

 

I am glad that you are getting therapy. I didn’t even realize I needed therapy until I was in my 40s. (I’m sure it was obvious to others, just not to me! ) I’d like to think that if I’d started working through my issues at your age, I would be damned near perfect by now!!!

 

Take care. noob

[Skeptic]

Dear Skeptic, I am wondering if your expectations of what you can get from an internet forum are way too high. First, I would like to say that I think everyone here is trying to be supportive and understanding. However, please understand that we don’t really know you and we cannot understand exactly what you have experienced and where you are coming from with these tiny little posts. Who you are is so much more than what we can glean here.

 

I know that. Believe me, I do. I didn't handle this in a good way at all and, to be honest, I just wanted this entire thread to disappear like I had never posted it. I thought about reporting it and having it deleted a few times, but I'm not going to do that. I can't keep running away from my problems when they get too big for me only to have them come up again at a later time and just repress them again. That's not helping me. I had some other shit happening at the same time and everything was gettting just way too crazy for me to even comprehend. I know that people were just trying to help. The reason why I acted like that was because I was trying to dissociate from those feelings, and, as a result, I was pushing people away from me. That's what it amounted to. That wasn't fair to any of you and it was a pretty stupid thing to do. I think at one point, I was actually trying to justify why I should be screwing myself over lol. "No! It should be my fault and I should destroy myself over it!" That was pretty dumb, and it's kind of funny to me now that I would do that.

 

I’m feeling your frustration and angst coming through, but I am also seeing that your approach is not serving you well.

 

You're absolutely right. Nothing that I'm doing to "fix" this or respond to people who just want to help me is working in anyone's favor at all, least of all my own. I'm not sure if I even wanted to fix it at the time, really. But I can't keep being like this. Something has got to change and I'm not exactly sure how that's going to pan out at this point, but I can't keep doing the things I'm doing in any sense.

 

People are taking their time to try to be supportive and encouraging. But your responses to them come across as dismissive, rude and condescending. You might not mean it that way, but that is how it seems. I don’t want to be harsh, but I hope you will consider that some of what you perceive as “hurting” others could stem from the way you communicate with them.

 

That's quite possible, actually. I don't mean to be rude and condescending, I'm just so out of my element with this. I'm usually a very emotionally reserved person, so for me to have posted any of this at all is still pretty amazing to me. I'm usually the one who accepts other people's baggage, not the other way around, and that has to stop. I can't keep caring about people more than I care about myself. Another reason why I seem rude and dismissive is because I have an extremely hard time being vulnerable in front of other people because of the stuff that I went through. It's very tempting for me to push people away rather than have a conversation where we reciprocate and I end up telling them my problems and receiving their advice. That's not fair to people, it's not a way to build any sort of social relationship at all, and it's not helping me. That has to stop. I can't keep blowing myself up and causing further damage to myself. I have too much as it is that I didn't even cause in the first place.

 

I’ve thought about you a lot over the last couple of days. Although I told you I still carried childhood baggage at my great old age, I have learned a few things through the years! One thing I’ve learned about myself, that you might consider as well, is that I am really not all that powerful or important in other people’s lives. Don’t get me wrong, I am well liked, I have lots of friends, and I do some good deeds. But, for the most part, what I do, what I say, who I am, is simply not that important to other people. I do not have the power to really hurt them.

I have never had to deal with anything like your experience with your suicidal friend and I imagine it was horrible for both of you. Yet, in my personal opinion, from what I have read here, I think you take way too much responsibility for what happened. You may see this as a pat, Pollyanna answer, but again, my experience tells me that we do not have any control over the actions of others. Yes, you can be a friend. Yes, you can be supportive. But, people will do what they have determined to do. And, even if you failed her miserably, you are human, you make mistakes, and life goes on. You are punishing yourself but to what avail? Will it help your friend for you to continue to torture yourself? You cannot change what happened. You learn from it. The end.

 

You're right. I can't change it. I keep hoping that I can, and I create what if scenarios in my head, but I'm going to have to accept that I can't change it and that it is what it is. I screwed up and that's okay. A large part of how I feel about it stems from how I was "raised". I was constantly scapegoated and made to feel guilty about things that weren't even my fault to begin with, so, as a result, I tend to think that everything is my fault automatically. I see now that the whole "I can fuck people up really badly on my own" thing is pretty damn egotistical. No one does have that much power, no matter what. Things aren't that simple. Most problems, especially big problems like that was, are multi-faceted. There is no one cause. The part that I bolded above isn't a pat, Pollyanna answer. It's the absolute truth. I do take too much responsibility for it. There were a lot of factors involved, most of which didn't even have anything to do with me. She was on anti-depressants at the time and her psychiatrist upped the dosage right before that happened. She herself had self-esteem issues, none of which had anything to do with me whatsoever. I tend to forget that and just shoulder all of the responsibility myself, but that's not something that I should be doing. It's very destructive, and I really am glad that you pointed it out to me. I think you did before, I just wasn't listening, and I really am sorry for that. I tend to get very weird when I'm in the "oh my god the world's crashing down on me and it's all my fault" mode, there, and that's not something that I have any business doing anymore. That really screws with me.

 

I am glad that you are getting therapy.

 

I'm actually not yet because I just moved and I have to get settled in here first, but I definitely will be as soon as possible.

 

Thanks for saying that to me and continuing to be persistent even though I tried to push you away. Again, that's something that just wasn't a good idea and it wasn't fair to you at all, and it wasn't fair to anyone else who posted here, either. I'm sorry that I continued to be hard-headed and not listen to what you were saying, even though it's all correct. Everything you said was right on the mark and I chose not to listen. Maybe I didn't listen because you were right? I don't know, but either way, it's something that I have no business doing, it's not helping me, and it's very unfair to you.

[godsfavoritecolor]

If you feel the need to help people, you can help others and yourself by training to be a psychologist or psychiatrist. The training will give you insight into your mind and the minds of others. I’ve heard that all psychiatrists are psychoanalyzed as part of their training. The training would also give meaning and purpose to your life.

[noob]

Skeptic, I wanted to let you know that I did not feel you were rude to me at all. In fact, you were very receptive to me. I just wanted to point out that the way you responded to others seemed to put them off. I don’t think you should feel badly about anything in this thread. I’ve seen some real knock down, screaming, ugly posts in my short time here and you did not come even close to that!!! In fact, my use of the word “rude” may have been excessive. You were definitely pushing away and dismissing, but for the most part you were not rude. I believe it is part of the growing and learning that we all have to do and I don’t think anyone here would resent you for that. We have different issues, but most of us are here for the support and encouragement. And sometimes, we are pissed at the world and we take it out on each other!

 

I’m very glad that you opened up and shared a part of yourself. Responding to you was helpful for me. It reinforced some of the things that I know, but tend to ignore. So, thank you for that.

 

Like Phanta, I am very impressed with your ability to analyze yourself and rethink your stance. You are a very bright woman (Yes, florduh, there are a lot of us out there!!!) with a very kind heart. I hope you do get into therapy. It has helped me tremendously to spill my guts to a therapist and have them help me see things from another perspective. I’m looking forward to hearing a lot more from you! I’m sure I will benefit from your insight as you change some of your self-destructive ways!

 

Fondly,

noob

[Skeptic]

Thanks noob, Phanta, and god'sfavoritecolor, and everyone else who posted here, as well. It means a lot. All of this means a lot to me. I had the worst good day ever today. Or was it the best bad day? *shrug* Who the fuck knows. All I know is that I woke up shaking just a little bit ago and I'm still shaking. I'm exhausted but I'm wired, I'm pissed but I'm not, I'm hungry but I can't eat, and I have no idea what the hell's going on. *sigh* Well, I've just got to deal with it, somehow, so onward and upward, I suppose.

[Skeptic]

I just wanted to assure those who were concerned about me that I'm doing much better now. I'll probably be back at that place that I was in the first post again at some point, but I think that the next time around, I'll be better equipped to handle it. Thanks again to everyone for the advice and support.

[Dagan]

I just wanted to assure those who were concerned about me that I'm doing much better now. I'll probably be back at that place that I was in the first post again at some point, but I think that the next time around, I'll be better equipped to handle it. Thanks again to everyone for the advice and support.

 

Glad to hear you're doing better. You'll be OK, and remember, you're not alone.

[Skeptic]

I figured I'd update this post instead of making a new one explaining the background on this.

 

I guess you've never had a friend who was suicidal and reaching out to you as the only person who cared for her only to emotionally withdraw from her and say something to her that caused her to attempt suicide in front of you, saying that if you got her any medical attention, that she would kill you. Then you get her help anyway because, after all, it's the least you can do in that situation, but then she comes back to school and hears people picking on her because they don't understand the situation and you hear about her locking herself in the bathroom and not coming out. Even then you're too much of a spineless weasel to stand up for her, so you completely abandon someone who you cared about and who cared about you for reasons that you don't even remember. You never talk to her again because you're terrified of her, partly because you had a nightmare that night that you found her dead body, so you don't know how she's doing. She could be dead for all you know. She could've attempted suicide again and succeeded this time. Who knows? You want to contact her, but you know that there's no way that she could ever forgive you for the pain and the torment that you caused and how that negatively impacted her life and maybe continues to impact her life. So you hold onto these feelings, never telling anyone, never seeking help, because you detest yourself so much for what you did and the pain that it caused another that you feel that you have to shoulder that burden. You have horrible nightmares for years because of it, four or five nightmares a night. Vivid, terrifying nightmares where you try to scream but no sound comes out, but you're still screaming in your head, even when you finally force yourself to wake up. You have a dull ache in your chest that won't go away and only seems to get stronger at times, causing you to double over in pain. Anytime you talk about it or remember something about that situation that you forgot, it causes your entire body to shake uncontrollably. Maybe I didn't cause her irreparable harm, but how will I ever know that when I'm too terrified to contact her? All I know is that for an undetermined period of time, I made someone's life a living hell, and that is something that I will never forgive myself for.

 

I called this friend today and not only is she not in a living hell, she's in college, she has a car, and things are going pretty well for her (or, at least, they're going a lot better than I thought they were when I wrote this post). I apologized to her and she forgave me, and she also apologized for how she acted. I asked her if she wanted to be friends and she said yes. She said that she was glad that I called, too. I can't even begin to describe how happy I am about this. It's incredible.