Christians...why Bother Us?

[agnosticator]

Yes, ShyOne >> you win the Cupie Doll!

 

God's elect are shown to be elect in this life because they;

1. persevere in the faith until the end

2. walk in the Spirit and do not fulfill the desires of their sin nature

3. give evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in their daily lives

4. follow Jesus, in a self-sacrificing life lived for God's glory and the good of others

5. faithfully reach out to the lost with the Gospel of salvation by grace thru faith in Jesus the Messiah

6. are willing to suffer to live out God's purpose

 

In what you have pointed out, many of us here have lived all six. But we learned it wasn't true or real. But of course, you will say we haven't persevered til the end....so the bullshit will be 100% disproved only at death. A convenient way to dismiss reality.

[rayskidude]

We're clearly not the elect. Why are you here? What is your motivation in dialogue?

 

Phanta

 

I'm here to have religious conversations with anyone desiring to engage. And my desire is to present Biblical Christianity as clearly as I can, to demonstrate that it is the best explanation for the big questions in life, in fact - for all the real meaningful questions of life.

 

Secondly, I would venture that neither Mathew or Zaccheus(tax collectors), nor Mary Magdalene(demon-possessed), nor Judas(political zealot), nor Paul(the violent blasphemer who persecuted the early Church), nor Peter & James & John (fisherman from the baskside of nowhere) etc, etc, etc thought they were elect either.

 

But:

Act 9:17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

Act 9:18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized;

Act 9:19 and taking food, he was strengthened. For some days he was with the disciples at Damascus.

Act 9:20 And immediately he proclaimed Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God."

Act 9:21 And all who heard him were amazed and said, "Is not this the man who made havoc in Jerusalem of those who called upon this name? And has he not come here for this purpose, to bring them bound before the chief priests?"

Act 9:22 But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ.

 

2Thess 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

2Thess 2:14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

 

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion...

1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,

[Franko47]

 

 

God's elect are shown to be elect in this life because they;

1. persevere in the faith until the end

2. walk in the Spirit and do not fulfill the desires of their sin nature

3. give evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in their daily lives

4. follow Jesus, in a self-sacrificing life lived for God's glory and the good of others

5. faithfully reach out to the lost with the Gospel of salvation by grace thru faith in Jesus the Messiah

6. are willing to suffer to live out God's purpose

 

 

 

 

You do realize that any person or Christians that honestly fulfill this criteria would all fit into my living room.

 

 

Hey, if the majority of Christians actually could ace two of these sentences, I would be impressed.

 

 

You're painting a pretty picture of what it means to be a Christian in this day and age.

 

 

Don't know, have never known any Christians who just gave their wealth to the poor, and devoted themselves to a life of denial and selflessness. I happens, but it is extremely rare.

[bdp]

 

 

God's elect are shown to be elect in this life because they;

1. persevere in the faith until the end

2. walk in the Spirit and do not fulfill the desires of their sin nature

3. give evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in their daily lives

4. follow Jesus, in a self-sacrificing life lived for God's glory and the good of others

5. faithfully reach out to the lost with the Gospel of salvation by grace thru faith in Jesus the Messiah

6. are willing to suffer to live out God's purpose

 

 

 

 

You do realize that any person or Christians that honestly fulfill this criteria would all fit into my living room.

 

 

Hey, if the majority of Christians actually could ace two of these sentences, I would be impressed.

 

 

You're painting a pretty picture of what it means to be a Christian in this day and age.

 

 

Don't know, have never known any Christians who just gave their wealth to the poor, and devoted themselves to a life of denial and selflessness. I happens, but it is extremely rare.

 

I never saw ANYONE do all of those things faultlessly - great big 'fail' of Christianity, Christians are no different from anyone else.

[rayskidude]

 

rayskidude' date='18 September 2009 - 06:02 PM' timestamp='1253322120' post='486481']

 

God's elect are shown to be elect in this life because they;

1. persevere in the faith until the end

2. walk in the Spirit and do not fulfill the desires of their sin nature

3. give evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in their daily lives

4. follow Jesus, in a self-sacrificing life lived for God's glory and the good of others

5. faithfully reach out to the lost with the Gospel of salvation by grace thru faith in Jesus the Messiah

6. are willing to suffer to live out God's purpose

 

This is the holy standard which God sets out in Scripture for all people who would claim to be Christians. This is obviously a high standard that no one would ever say they have or will achieve in this life. For in view of the fact that God works in our hearts and lives for our benefit, yet we also know that our sinful nature, Satan, and the enticements of this world all fight against holy living. We are all susceptible to worldy living. But there will come a Day when God will establish a New Heavens and Earth where there will be no more crying, pain, mourning, illness, sorrow, death, etc. ANd we will receive new glorified bodies, with no indwelling sin - and then we'l be completely desirous and able to live this holy lifestyle.

 

I never saw ANYONE do all of those things faultlessly - great big 'fail' of Christianity, Christians are no different from anyone else.

 

Neither have I - but I have seen people striving toward this holy lifestyle, encouraging each other, praying for each other, coming to the aid of each other. So we look for the direction of the believer's life to be toward further godliness - understanding that this is a life-long pursuit. Note the testimony of the Apostle Paul;

 

Php 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ

Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--

Php 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

Php 3:11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,

Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

[NotBlinded]

Don't know, have never known any Christians who just gave their wealth to the poor, and devoted themselves to a life of denial and selflessness. I happens, but it is extremely rare.

It's rare because there is a contradiction in the religion itself. It breeds self-centered individuals by promises of greater things for themselves, but they must help others in order to get this. Philanthropists would do it for no reward. Christians aren't philanthropists. They want their name to be printed in bold letters in the book of life for all to see while they look over the edge of the pit of hell with a grin on their faces.

[BuddyFerris]

Don't know, have never known any Christians who just gave their wealth to the poor, and devoted themselves to a life of denial and selflessness. I happens, but it is extremely rare.

It's rare because there is a contradiction in the religion itself. It breeds self-centered individuals by promises of greater things for themselves, but they must help others in order to get this. Philanthropists would do it for no reward. Christians aren't philanthropists. They want their name to be printed in bold letters in the book of life for all to see while they look over the edge of the pit of hell with a grin on their faces.

It's perhaps easy to dismiss Christians and their efforts on behalf of others as coming from some other than altruistic motive. It would be equally easy to attribute some base motive to their critics. Unless we're describing our own heart reasons, I don't think we really know the 'why' in someone's actions. Rather than assigning motives to one another, something about which we know little, perhaps it would be worth our effort to consider our actions instead. Are the hungry fed, the naked clothed, the homeless housed, and the oppressed freed? You have to ask yourself every now and then, what's the effect of my life on my part of the world? Do the years go by while I serve myself and my desires, or do I live for some larger purpose? What do we do with what we know?

 

The site you folks provide has given me much food for thought over the last couple of years. I appreciate the clarity that has come as my own tenuously formed convictions have been challenged. Antlerman provided some interesting intellectual material; HanSolo helped flesh out some philosophical questions; others challenged peripheral issues in my thinking; all good, I think, in helping me shed irrelevant encumbrances. I have more room in my life now for folks like those here who have expressed thoughtful disagreement, making their best good-conscience effort at living honestly.

 

And at the end of it all, I find myself even more firmly tied to God and his purposes.

[bdp]

so what?

[bdp]

Neither have I

 

Your book says you won't 'sin' - your book says you won't DESIRE to 'sin' - your book is one big string of lies from front to back - it FAILS.

 

Oh, that's right, this is lion's den - fuck you.

[BuddyFerris]

Neither have I

 

Your book says you won't 'sin' - your book says you won't DESIRE to 'sin' - your book is one big string of lies from front to back - it FAILS.

 

Actually, friend, it doesn't say either of those things, but specifically the opposite, and rather clearly at that.

[Deva]

And at the end of it all, I find myself even more firmly tied to God and his purposes.

 

Is that why you are back? Maybe not quite firm enough, so you again need to see how confused we heathens are so you can do a little more self-confirmation?

 

Actually, Buddy, I can agree with most of the rest of your post about feeding the hungry, helping the homeless, etc., having a higher purpose than oneself, etc. Its true that not nearly enough is being done and its true that Christians do help with these activities - but for the number of professing Christians out there, I see a lot of homeless wandering the streets. Plainly, motive or not, its still a huge problem.

[BuddyFerris]

 

Is that why you are back? Maybe not quite firm enough, so you again need to see how confused we heathens are so you can do a little more self-confirmation?

 

Actually, Buddy, I can agree with most of the rest of your post about feeding the hungry, helping the homeless, etc., having a higher purpose than oneself, etc. Its true that not nearly enough is being done and its true that Christians do help with these activities - but for the number of professing Christians out there, I see a lot of homeless wandering the streets. Plainly, motive or not, its still a huge problem.

Hi Deva; nice to hear from you.

 

"The poor you have with you always," I think is how it was said. You're right, it's huge, as are perhaps all the human problems we face. One of the things I've enjoyed about Americans over the years is their generosity. They both individually and collectively are the world's most generous and willing to help. Political motivations aside, they've given to non-political charitable works over the decades at a higher per capita rate than any other nation. Much of it traces its roots to the nation's Christian ethic, of course, and is in decline in direct relation to the shift in national conscience away from our Christian roots.

 

Working in Africa the last couple of years, I've had my perspective further adjusted. Now with dear friends there, it's much like sitting beside a hospital bed while your loved one suffers. No matter how much you do, they still suffer. So, you do what you can and encourage others to help where and how they can. Pretty much all of my Christian friends are deeply invested in helping as much as they're able. Am I my brother's keeper? You bet.

 

...why I'm back? I stop by from time to time to see what discussions are underway; I appreciate the counterpoint I often find here to common religious rhetoric. And of course, I enjoy people who actually live their convictions; facta non verba (action, not speeches). Every now and then, I run across one. HanSolo, for example.

 

I hope you're well and happy,

Buddy

[Legion]

Well Buddy, it appears to me that you’re not as formal with your language here as you once were. And I think that’s cool.

[Deva]

Thanks for the good wishes, Buddy.

 

Aren't people in the U.S. simply more able to be generous because of the fact that there is a higher standard of living here? I mean, the settlers to this nation found an incredible wealth of natural resources to draw upon and no invasions by other nations to disrupt the stability. We had a tremendously rich land. I think you also have to consider, when you are talking about "Christian values" having such a positive effect, the negative effect that said values have also had. Let's be even-handed. Yes, there are and were charitable Christian philanthropists, but the settlers to this country also caused massive destruction of the environment, they basically destroyed the Native American cultures and we have fought in how many wars? This can be traced also to the Christian roots. These actions were all done by Christians. I think more murders are committed in this country than anywhere and it has always been a violent nation.

 

Personally,despite all the hospitals, food pantries and other efforts, I think Christians take a low view of humanity. That is the whole basis of their religion, after all. You talk about motivation and I wonder if all this charitable activity is because of love of their fellow human beings or simply because God told them to do it. Agreed, end result is the same, people are helped, but its not love of humanity that is behind it. Also, I must point out that the homeless are not simply fed, generally they are compelled to listen to sermon while eating. It isn't as if there are no strings attached.

 

I belong to an organization that contributes to charity projects. One of them was a local church that served as a homeless shelter. In fact, this establishment is about the only place in the whole county that homeless people can go. It is shocking that a wealthy place such as Palm Beach County, cannot do anything for homeless people. The police would drop people off there after they left the hospital because they had no place to go. I was on the verge of making a contribution to this church but I found out that the people who stayed there were compelled to listen to sermons. I would not contribute to such a mission. Why not just feed people, why the preaching? I don't buy it that a few sermons are going to change people's lives so that they won't go back out and live on the street.

[BuddyFerris]

Well Buddy, it appears to me that you’re not as formal with your language here as you once were. And I think that’s cool.

formal=cautious, perhaps.

Hi pal. Yes, less formal, I'm sure; time passes, priorities change, less time left for careful verbal swordplay. I suspect that many of the gnats at which we strain while swallowing camels are in fact just gnats, and not worthy or the time or attention we might devote to them.

 

I've had other things on my mind lately. This young lady ...was the first student in Africa to receive me as friend, now almost two years ago. Her family lives more simply than we can really grasp. Her mom does laundry in the river a mile away. They carry water home in plastic jugs. Last week, having established a relationship with the family, I persuaded her mom and dad to let me sponsor her in a scholarship program. We set it up with a local group that will provide clothes, shoes, tuition and fees, books and supplies, in home and in school tutoring, some food to help balance the family diet, and health ed for malaria and HIV/AIDS. They were wonderfully appreciative; crabby mom actually smiled and embraced me like family. It cost me very little, but it made all the difference in the world for them.

 

I'm working really hard to genuinely understand the world outside my own. It's been difficult, painful, and consuming.

[Legion]

I believe I understand Buddy.

 

I admire your philanthropy. Compassion in action can be a beautiful thing. And I am pleased that you’ve found a new friend in Africa. She looks so vivacious too.

 

But I can’t help but feel divided about the fact that Jesus may be getting all the credit. I see why someone might want to cleanse themselves of credit and pride by insisting that they’re doing it for Jesus. But I don’t see a problem with admitting that they’re doing it out of a love for humanity.

 

I think ego can be a real bitch. It seems to always be here with us, threatening to taint everything we do.

 

But Jesus or not, a young lady is receiving love that she might not otherwise. So it seems like a net positive to me. I wish you the best in your giving in Africa.

[BuddyFerris]

Thanks for the good wishes, Buddy.

 

Aren't people in the U.S. simply more able to be generous because of the fact that there is a higher standard of living here? ...

... I was on the verge of making a contribution to this church but I found out that the people who stayed there were compelled to listen to sermons. I would not contribute to such a mission. Why not just feed people, why the preaching? I don't buy it that a few sermons are going to change people's lives so that they won't go back out and live on the street.

Simply? Perhaps not.

 

Our standard of living isn't the highest in the world, nor are we the wealthiest per capita. We're either 6th, 4th, 7th, or 8th, depending on whose criteria is used. Safest country in the world? Nope. Longest life expectancy? Nope.

 

But most generous? Yep. Have been for decades. And the distance back to second place is huge. Americans contribute privately to non-governmental charitable work (foreign & domestic) at a rate more than double that of the next on the list (UK). Public policy for international humanitarian assistance yields a similar disparity among nations.

 

Would I work hand in hand with a Muslim to provide needed shelter? I do. Alongside an atheist? I do. A Southern Baptist? Maybe/probably. Have I sat and listened to stupid sermons in a food kitchen. Sure. Who cares.

 

As you suggest, sermons wont keep people from living on the street, but they will offer hope to some who have none.

 

Buddy

[Shyone]

Are you familiar with a book by Kenneth Daniels entitled, "Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary"?

 

It seems so strange to me that, after being exposed to the same things some people have a very different experience than others.

[Antlerman]

It's perhaps easy to dismiss Christians and their efforts on behalf of others as coming from some other than altruistic motive. It would be equally easy to attribute some base motive to their critics. Unless we're describing our own heart reasons, I don't think we really know the 'why' in someone's actions.

As in any organized activity, each individual will have their own personal reasons for doing so. And what happens is that when there are those individuals with less the pure reasons, ulterior motives such as using it to sell someone a product instead of pure altruism, those that stink the worst often times ends up making the whole thing reek of it, making everyone look bad. That's sort of the nature of how that happens. The bad often registers the strongest.

 

I have no doubts the sincerity and heart of many of the individuals within it, regardless of the motives of others - even the organizers themselves in cases.

 

Are the hungry fed, the naked clothed, the homeless housed, and the oppressed freed? You have to ask yourself every now and then, what's the effect of my life on my part of the world? Do the years go by while I serve myself and my desires, or do I live for some larger purpose? What do we do with what we know?

I agree with this, and why I would say it's more important to be doing this in the name of Love, then in the name of some religion. Love is greater than religion, not the property of it. And sharing that, is more important than some religion or named deity.

 

The site you folks provide has given me much food for thought over the last couple of years. I appreciate the clarity that has come as my own tenuously formed convictions have been challenged. Antlerman provided some interesting intellectual material; HanSolo helped flesh out some philosophical questions; others challenged peripheral issues in my thinking; all good, I think, in helping me shed irrelevant encumbrances. I have more room in my life now for folks like those here who have expressed thoughtful disagreement, making their best good-conscience effort at living honestly.

Well, then I have done good myself in helping others and the world. BTW, I was wondering why my ears were ringing this morning. Someone was mentioning me.

 

Hi Buddy!

 

And at the end of it all, I find myself even more firmly tied to God and his purposes.

It might be interesting if you were to read some of what End and I have been discussing over in YoYo's "Fundi Wife" thread. What I just posted this morning might have something to say to this.

 

Later..

[Legion]

... using it to sell someone a product instead of pure altruism...

Antlerman I’ll give you some love if you’ll also take some Jesus.

[BuddyFerris]

I believe I understand Buddy.

 

I admire your philanthropy. Compassion in action can be a beautiful thing. And I am pleased that you’ve found a new friend in Africa. She looks so vivacious too.

 

But I can’t help but feel divided about the fact that Jesus may be getting all the credit. I see why someone might want to cleanse themselves of credit and pride by insisting that they’re doing it for Jesus. But I don’t see a problem with admitting that they’re doing it out of a love for humanity.

 

I think ego can be a real bitch. It seems to always be here with us, threatening to taint everything we do.

 

But Jesus or not, a young lady is receiving love that she might not otherwise. So it seems like a net positive to me. I wish you the best in your giving in Africa.

Thanks for the kind words Legion.

 

My little friend is pretty, isn't she. Don't tell her. She's a precious 9 year old third grader and my favorite in Africa. She was the first among the children to embrace me as a friend. While talking with the school principal about their practical needs, I found her attached to my knee. When I picked her up, she hugged me tight around the neck, kissed me on the cheek, then wiggled to get down and scamper off. In 15 seconds, she had forever captured my heart. She was saying thanks, I think, for a load of pencils and paper I'd brought just before Christmas '07.

 

She's one of two we've brought into the program this month; there are five more waiting for me to come up with financing. Most are orphaned or impoverished or both. Families are fractured by poverty and disease. I've lost two of my friends at the elementary school to disease this year, one I know was malaria.

 

I didn't do it for Jesus. I'm not particularly religious. I did it for her and her mom and dad. They're friends of mine. Now I do understand, "In as much as you've done it unto the least of these....", but I'm not confused by it. The need was theirs, not His. I didn't tell the story to give Jesus glory or gather any praise for myself; I haven't done or given all that much. I just thought the telling might illuminate the question, "What are we going to do with what we know?"

 

Happy Friday, friend.

Buddy

[Ouroboros]

But most generous? Yep. Have been for decades. And the distance back to second place is huge. Americans contribute privately to non-governmental charitable work (foreign & domestic) at a rate more than double that of the next on the list (UK). Public policy for international humanitarian assistance yields a similar disparity among nations.

By what numbers? What's the criteria?

 

 

U.S. not 'most generous' by many calculations

 

Uwe Reinhardt, James Madison Professor of Political Economy, Princeton University - Princeton, N.J.

 

USA TODAY presents data on foreign aid and asserts that "the United States is the most generous country in the world when it comes to foreign aid." It is a slogan repeated often by our presidents ("2 lessons on foreign aid," Editorial, Friday).

 

By that logic, however, the United States is also the most athletic nation in the world because it regularly wins more medals in the Olympics than do tiny nations such as Israel or Denmark.

 

If you adjust the dollar figures on foreign aid that USA TODAY presents for population size or gross domestic product, then Denmark, for example, is found to devote 1.12% of its GDP and $385 per capita to foreign aid, both in purchasing power parity dollars. The comparable figures for the United States are only 0.22% of GDP and $92 per capita.

 

Any college freshman would judge the Danes to be the more generous people when it comes to foreign aid, and so should USA TODAY. I invite you to make similar calculations for other nations, and you'll discover that the United States is way down in the rankings on foreign aid.

(Source: http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2006/06/us_not_most_gen.html)

 

Granted it's from 2006 but still it point out the problem of defining the criteria.

 

Here's another source: (Aneki, World Ranking, it's a secondary source. The primary source is FBI World Factbook. I think the data is from 2008.)

Country	Donor aid per capita
1	Luxembourg	  $490.59
2	Denmark	          $389.53
3	Norway	          $302.51
4	Netherlands	  $241.39
5	Sweden	          $188.24
6	United Kingdom	  $176.06
7	Finland	          $162.36
8	Ireland	          $147.72
9	Switzerland	  $145.61
10	Belgium	          $103.15
11	Austria	          $83.05
12	Canada        	  $77.87
13	Japan        	  $69.84
14	Germany        	  $67.96
15	Australia	  $43.75
16	Spain        	  $32.88
17	Portugal	  $25.46
18	United States	  $22.91
19	Iceland        	  $22.19
20	Italy        	  $17.20

http://www.aneki.com/most_generous_countries.html

 

From these calculations it looks like the atheist/agnostic/socialist countries are ahead.

 

Do you remember the story from the Bible about the widow how gave her last money to the synagogue? The priests complained because it was so little, but Jesus pointed out that she gave more because it was her last money. Something like that, right? Think of the small country Denmark. They're not givin as much in charity in total amount, since American is HUGE, and they are small. But when it comes to percentage and individual, then we're talking about a larger share of what they have to give. So are you judging as a pharisee or as Jesus when you state America is the most generous?

[Legion]

You've touched my heart here Buddy. And again I wish you the best in Africa.

 

Are you in the States now? If so, how long will you be here?

[Skankboy]

Welcome Back Buddy,

 

Not to degrade your work in Africa, but I'm often curious about why people seem so willing to step over the poor/homeless we have in the US to go and help people on another continent?

 

Again, I don't want to take away from the good I'm sure you did, but I really believe we should be looking to our own first. There's plenty of good to do right here in the US, so what made you decide to go to Africa?

 

Thanks,

[BuddyFerris]

...

As in any organized activity, each individual will have their own personal reasons for doing so.

I have no doubts the sincerity and heart of many of the individuals within it, regardless of the motives of others - even the organizers themselves in cases.

 

...

Hi fella; nice to hear from you, as always.

 

As Legion says, ego can be a bitch. Each individual and their personal reasons... yep, and I doubt there are any pure motives among those who try to do well by others, but I'm aware that we can make choices based on principal and independent of what costs or benefits we might accrue. We hope for such to be our consistent consideration, a choice for nobility, courage, compassion, and love which, as you suggest, is the most gracious of gifts.

 

Shyone, I haven't read the book, but I know what you mean. Two people walking the same path can have such different conclusions from the experiences. If you want to shatter a lot of clinging nonsense, though, let me recommend spending a few months in a small African town. Learn the language, make a few friends, share a few simple meals, have your heart broken a thousand times, then go home and rewrite your personal philosophy. I'm undone by living among them and knowing them. If you can get somebody else to pay for it like I did, so much the better.

Buddy