Christians...why Bother Us?

[centauri]

Please note just a few things that Paul says about true Christian faith & the resultant behaviors;

Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

When did God declare in the Hebrew scriptures that loving your neighbor fulfilled all the law?

 

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

When did God revoke the mandate for his people to be circumcised?

Where in the Hebrew scriptures does it say that a king messiah would eliminate such requirements?

 

True Christian Faith is always presented as resulting in Christian virtues and behavior - you cannot have one without the other. Even that great passage on being saved by God's grace alone through faith alone goes on to teach that we are in Christ Jesus to do good works. The works are a result of the faith!!

 

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Then good works are predestined by God, who ordains some people to believe in advance.

Individual faith has nothing to do with it because people were predestined to have the faith.

Apparently you're not going along with the "free will" Christians that say God doesn't directly interfere with people's decisions.

If good works are automatically imputed into every believer, then there shouldn't have been any need for Jesus to

warn his followers that if they don't do some good works, they will suffer eternal damnation.

Is being baptized considered a good work and true Christian behavior?

Who is correct, the true Christians that claim it isn't needed, or the true Christians that insist it is?

[Guest ephymeris]

I am so enjoying this little debate, chefranden, et al! I've never thought about Ezekial this way though I read it as a christian and wondered why there were so many passages in the bible dictating different ways to get your very own golden ticket. Keep going

[Guest end3]

Also, if you believe that there is some variety in the doctrine of salvation that is presented throughout Scripture, I ask that you state the differences you see. Then I'd be happy to respond.

 

If you don't believe there is some variety in biblical doctrines of salvation, you don't know the book very well. However, there is plenty of extra biblical evidence of soteriological variation in the myriads of denominations.

 

Since I suppose that I can't expect you to think for yourself on the matter here's something I wrote on Ezekiel vs. Paul.

 

Who Has the Best Plan of Salvation: Ezekiel or Paul?

 

 

Sunday, an excellent day on which to consider salvation. I’m going to assume here that the reader and I both pretty much agree on what the plan of salvation is according to Paul via the faith only folks. I’m thinking of the one coming from the likes of those great bible scholars, Billy Sunday, Billy Graham, and Jack Chick: 1. Admit that you are a sinner because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of god. 2. Be willing to turn from sin because in times past God winked at ignorance, but now commands all men everywhere to repent. 3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you, was buried, and rose from the dead so that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved. 4. Through prayer, invite Jesus into your life to become your personal Savior, because anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

Some churches, which are bit closer in thought with the “whore of Babylon” like the Lutheran, Episcopal, Church of Christ will add 5. Be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, for he that believes and is baptized will be saved. I only add this because you, dear reader, may be from such a church. Much to the annoyance of my old Church of Christ, Paul didn’t put as much emphasis on baptism as could be hoped for. The short coming is troublesome because Church of Christ theologists interpret Christ, Peter, John, James, and the OT via Paul like most Christians do.

 

The salient points of Paul’s salvation thinking are: 1. A person is a worthless pile of crap which naturally God wouldn’t want on his living room carpet. 2. Once a pile of crap, always a pile of crap unless, 3. Someone not a worthless pile of crap has his nose rubbed in it, and 4. I, a self acknowledged worthless pile of crap, believe that this someone did have his nose rubbed in it, then 5. I’m no longer a pile of crap. So, as long as I can hold this picture in my mind as a logical and loving certainty and necessity I get to live for ever.

 

I put the above paragraph in such rude terms on purpose in order that you may more easily see that Ezekiel’s plan of salvation, supported by Matthew’s Jesus, allows one to maintain human dignity and still have a relationship with God.

 

[A quick note on context: Just because the writings found in the Christian Bible were arbitrarily chosen and pasted together by the early Roman Church does not mean that they are in actual context with one another. That means that Paul and Ezekiel do actually disagree with one another, and that there is no contextual reason to suppose Paul superior to Ezekiel in understanding God.]

 

Dear Reader, Ezekiel’s plan of salvation is not well known so you may want to refresh your memory of it by reading through it a couple of times.

Ezekiel 18

 

Ezekiel writes that what he has to say came right from Yahweh. Since Zeke made the bible compiling cut, religious folks have to give him some authority. Paul is somewhat less assertive about the source of his musings. Paul got his information from the Christ, rather then directly from the head God. Since Paul also made the cut, how should one judge between them? As an outsider, I would say go with the guy that reported to the head man especially since he is supported by at least one version of the Son of God and Son Inc. – More on that later.

 

You will notice from the beginning God’s description of a righteous man is given. The righteous man does not eat at mountain shrines, does not look at idols, does not mess with his neighbor’s wife, does not have sex with menstruating women, does not oppress anyone, does not rob, does not take interest on loans (the American Standard is a poor translation here as are most modern translations that dare not speak against capitalism), and in general does not do wrong. A righteous man does return collateral for a loan. A righteous man does feed the hungry. A righteous man does cloth the naked. A righteous man judges fairly between man and man. A righteous man does keep God’s laws.

 

Since God can describe a righteous man, one might be given to ponder the possibility that there could be such people born of Eve. At this point the average Christian will be tempted to guess that God is describing Christ. However, that is not clear. “The righteous man will live,” says Ezekiel, but we know that, according to Paul, the righteous Christ must die. In addition we find that God is disputing Israel’s belief that they, or anyone, dies for someone else’s sin. (Vs. 3&4) One might even get the crazy idea that Yahweh doesn’t have much sympathy for St. Augustine’s idea of original sin either. Vs.20 “… the son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.”

 

And then Yahweh says, “The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him,” [!!] Ezekiel’s Yahweh doesn’t support the idea that your righteousness is useless being only filthy rags.

 

It is about here that the Pauline apologist will be tempted to claim that the life and death being spoken of is temporal. However, there is little evidence that temporal authorities ever put men to death for oppressing the powerless, the poor, the widow, or the orphan. There is little evidence of men being put to death for charging interest on loans except by medieval kings and lords that didn’t want to make good on their debt. There is even less evidence of people being put to death by temporal authorities for not being charitable. Indeed these are the sorts of behavior that often lead to wealth and power. Vs.21 puts an end to the idea that Ezekiel’s Yahweh is talking about temporal life and death. It is impossible for a dead wicked guy to turn his life around by acting righteously.

 

Not only does the wicked man save himself by repenting and practicing righteousness, but he gets his sins forgiven and taken off the books: vs.22 “none of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.” This is repeated with more power in vs. 28: “Because [the wicked man] considers all the offenses [the wicked man] has committed and turns away from them, [the wicked man] will surely live; [the wicked man] will not die.

And it is re-emphasized again in vs.30: “Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.”

 

Warning, Jack Chick wannabes might want to skip over this next bit of vs. 22. Ezekiel’s Yahweh says “Because of the righteous things he [that’s the wicked man] has done, he [that’s the wicked man] will live. Hmmm! According to Paul this can’t happen. Vs. 24 is a spoiler for those readers who might be of the “once saved, always saved” stripe. If you are invested in that belief you may want to skip vs.24.

 

What does this mean if Ezekiel is writing the Word of Yahweh? Well of course it means that you don’t need a savior. It means that you can be righteous in the sight of Yahweh by your own efforts to be righteous. To say otherwise makes Ezekiel’s Yahweh out to be flip flopper at best and a liar at worst. However, I think that the notion that Yahweh is the same yesterday, today, and always kind of does away with the possibility of Yahweh being a flip flopper. So either Yahweh is a liar or Paul is. As an atheist I would say that the problem is just another illustration that shows that religion is what ever the latest James Dobson type says it is. However, if I were still religious I would lean towards Ezekiel, because doing so solves a number of problems.

 

The most serious problem it solves is that of being condemned for something you have no control over. The Pauline idea of condemnation is rather like condemning a dog for not being able to fly. “Not fair,” I’d say. But old Zeke said, “don’t whine about not fair! Of course it’s fair. You do what you’re told and you’re in. And, even though you are a measly human, you can do what you are told.” I like that if only because it prevents Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and their ilk from getting into heaven at the last second via a quick sinner’s prayer.

 

Since I’m still an admirer of Jesus as a good teacher, sorry Clive, I’m amused and gratified to know that at least one version of him agrees with old Zeke.

Matthew 25: 31-46.

 

Upon close reading now that you are familiar with Ezekiel 18 you will notice how much Jesus’ picture of the “last judgment” echoes Zeke. To me what is more telling is what Jesus doesn’t mention as being important when standing before God for the last time.

 

Nothing about what you believe is mentioned. No troublesome beliefs are required. You don’t have to believe that Noah crammed two or seven of all the animals in the world in a wood boat for a year with no place to put the poop. You don’t have to believe in a Virgin Mary. You don’t have to believe blood is better than Tide for whitening. You don’t have to believe that you are a worthless piece of crap. By means of silence Jesus clears up all the theological bickering and killing over crap like baptism, communion, trinity, Popes, tongues, etcetera, etcetera, and etcetera. Heck, believing in God himself is not even required. Just were you as good to people as you could be given your resources and abilities? Even I can do that.

 

Eze 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die

 

How do you make this verse to be different than what Paul is saying Chef? I see your point, but I think it can be read just as easily that "keeps all my decrees.." as being the need for a savior. Surely Adam 1 and Eve didn't need a savior before the debbil? Hell, they were even naked and didn't care.

 

I

[chefranden]

Eze 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die

 

How do you make this verse to be different than what Paul is saying Chef? I see your point, but I think it can be read just as easily that "keeps all my decrees.." as being the need for a savior. Surely Adam 1 and Eve didn't need a savior before the debbil? Hell, they were even naked and didn't care.

 

I

 

I make this to be different because Yahweh is saying you can keep his decrees, or else there would be no reason to dictate the passage at all. In addition if you mess up in decree keeping, the formula is "repent and reform" which is an allowance for human frailty, and I would add a just allowance.

 

There is no justice under Paul's formula because,

 

1. You are condemned for something you can't help being.

 

2. Reform and restitution have no effect salvationwise, and so are useless activities.

 

3. The ability to believe something not very believable is better than good behavior.

[Neon Genesis]

Since I’m still an admirer of Jesus as a good teacher, sorry Clive, I’m amused and gratified to know that at least one version of him agrees with old Zeke. Matthew 25: 31-46.

Yesterday a Catholic friend of mine andd I were talking about this. She brought up how there was a Christian missionary woman (I forgot her name) who went on a missionary trip and this Buddhist woman offered to let her stay in her house. She said this caused some debate among her fundamentalist friends because the bible says you'll be saved if you offer your house to someone to stay in and this Buddhist woman did but she never converted. I also mentioned that Jesus tells off the disciples when they start claiming this guy who's casting out demons in his name is not a true follower in Mark 9:38-40.

John said to him, ‘Teacher, we saw someone* casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.’ 39But Jesus said, ‘Do not stop him; for no one who does a deed of power in my name will be able soon afterwards to speak evil of me. 40Whoever is not against us is for us.

[Ouroboros]

And: Matthew 12:30, "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."

 

So I guess there are four groups according to Jesus:

 

1) Those who are with Jesus

2) Those who are not against Jesus -> with Jesus

3) Those who are not with Jesus -> against Jesus

4) Those who are against Jesus

 

Clever, even though I think the 2 and 3 are gray areas.

[rayskidude]

I wish these Christians would go to North Korea and Saudia Arabia to spread the good word. Too bad most western Christians are too cowardly to do that. They don't actually have faith enough to leave everything behind and trust in god for thier saftey. Oh, and they should be happy to be matryrs for the faith. So here's a tip Christians, prove your faith and start by preaching in those two countries instead of to us that have "been there, done that". Soldiers for the faith, more like gutless cowards for the faith all we get around here.

 

There are alot of Christians in alot of dangerous places, preaching the Gospel and performing humanitarian work - I suggest you do some homework before posting nonsense.

[rayskidude]

Please note that you have said nothing of why Paul's plan of salvation is superior to Ezekiel. I didn't say that Paul's plan wasn't different than Ezekiel's. It is different -- that's the point.

 

I'm the one who stated that Paul's plan of salvation (and the salvific plan of Jesus) are not different than Ezekiel's plan. God's plan of salvation has always been the same - that's a main point of the Book of Galatians.

 

I have shown you that Jesus & Paul both stated that faith in God was requisite for salvation - and that true faith is evidenced by right living. Both Jesus (Matt 28:19,20 & and all his castigations of the Pharisees) and Paul (look at all the moral commands he gives in his epistles) speak about the importance of obeying God's commands, and by reading all of Scripture you'll see that right living is commensurate with Biblical faith. What do you think II Cor 5:14-17 means? That you can have saving faith in our Lord Jesus the Messiah and then live some profligate lifestyle?

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;

2Co 5:15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2Co 5:16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

 

When you're a new creature in Christ you have a new heart, new desires, new goals, new motivations - the fruit of which is good, godly works. Without the fruit, there is every reason to doubt and question whether there's a new heart, whether there is salavtion.

 

Your problem is that you want to lift certain parts of Ezekiel out of the context of the book, and the Bible as a whole. That, my friend, is eisegesis. Notice that Ezek 1:1 - 28 shows the likeness of the glory of God, from there on God calls Ezekiel as His prophet for a ministry;

Eze 1:1 In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I was among the exiles by the Chebar canal, the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

Eze 1:2 On the fifth day of the month (it was the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin),

Eze 1:3 the word of the LORD came to Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the Chebar canal, and the hand of the LORD was upon him there.

Eze 2:1 And he said to me, "Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak with you."

Eze 2:2 And as he spoke to me, the Spirit entered into me and set me on my feet, and I heard him speaking to me.

Eze 2:3 And he said to me, "Son of man, I send you to the people of Israel, to nations of rebels, who have rebelled against me. They and their fathers have transgressed against me to this very day.

Eze 2:4 The descendants also are impudent and stubborn: I send you to them, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.'

Eze 3:10 Moreover, he said to me, "Son of man, all my words that I shall speak to you receive in your heart, and hear with your ears.

Eze 3:11 And go to the exiles, to your people, and speak to them and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,' whether they hear or refuse to hear."

Eze 3:12 Then the Spirit lifted me up, and I heard behind me the voice of a great earthquake: "Blessed be the glory of the LORD from its place!"

 

Do you think God initiated a work in Ezekiel? Do you think Ezekiel believed in and then obeyed the Biblical God? Do you think he preached so that others would believe and then obey God?

 

Do you actually seriously think that God requires someone to obey all His decrees devoid of or apart from faith in Him - and that is pleasing to God and worthy of salvation? Where is there any Scripture to warrant such?

 

Actually, in their own flesh, nobody can do this.

So then you mean that Ezekiel and thus Yahweh is a liar? They say you can do this. So actually, in their own flesh, anybody can do this.

Where do they say such a thing?

[rayskidude]

I make this to be different because Yahweh is saying you can keep his decrees, or else there would be no reason to dictate the passage at all.

 

Yahweh is not saying you can keep His decrees, or else there's no reason for the dictate. God is commanding people to keep His decrees >> and then when people realize they cannot, they will cry out to God in humble confession & repentance and receive mercy & grace from God. Have you not read the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector? Who went home justified before God? Not the righteous who believe they can and have followed God's decrees.

 

In addition if you mess up in decree keeping, the formula is "repent and reform" which is an allowance for human frailty, and I would add a just allowance.

 

Yes, this is exactly what Scripture teaches that God desires from us!!!! Repent & reform.

Act 14:13 And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was at the entrance to the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds.

Act 14:14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out into the crowd, crying out,

Act 14:15 "Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them.

 

1Th 1:9 For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,

1Th 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

 

There is no justice under Paul's formula because,

 

1. You are condemned for something you can't help being.

 

2. Reform and restitution have no effect salvationwise, and so are useless activities.

 

3. The ability to believe something not very believable is better than good behavior.

 

1. God grants us His grace & mercy so that we receive a salvation we don't deserve and could not earn.

 

2. Repentance and faith lead to true reformation conducted from a grateful heart and from the motive of love to God & others, rather than in a reform effort conducted to earn salvation.

 

3. To believe in a holy God who created the universe, who loves us, who sent His Son to redeem us from our rebellion - very believable. Would a God any less than this be worthy of worship and adoration?

[Astreja]

Yahweh is not saying you can keep His decrees, or else there's no reason for the dictate. God is commanding people to keep His decrees >> and then when people realize they cannot, they will cry out to God in humble confession & repentance and receive mercy & grace from God.

WTF??? A being that would do such a thing is unworthy of worship.

 

1. God grants us His grace & mercy so that we receive a salvation we don't deserve and could not earn. {emphasis Mine}

It is unjust to judge someone for behaviour that they are not capable of correcting. Again, Biblegod fails the morality test spectacularly.

 

To believe in a holy God who created the universe, who loves us, who sent His Son to redeem us from our rebellion - very believable.

On the contrary, I find it unbelievable and immoral.

[chefranden]

Yahweh is not saying you can keep His decrees, or else there's no reason for the dictate. God is commanding people to keep His decrees >> and then when people realize they cannot, they will cry out to God in humble confession & repentance and receive mercy & grace from God. Have you not read the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector? Who went home justified before God? Not the righteous who believe they can and have followed God's decrees.

 

Where does Ezekiel say this? Why would god give generations of people faulty advice? You're trying to read Paul back into the text. There is no contextual reason to make Paul interpret Ezekiel. Why not make Ezekiel interpret Paul? The Ezekiel text does in fact say that your repentance and reform is sufficient. There is nothing about how you can't do it in Ezekiel. Yes Paul comes along later and says you can't do it. However, there is no reason to suppose that Paul is right and Ezekiel is wrong except your habit of thinking.

 

David Claims he was able to do this, and we know how grievous his sin was: 2Sam22 :21 "The LORD has dealt with me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me. 22 For I have kept the ways of the LORD; I have not done evil by turning from my God. 23 All his laws are before me; I have not turned away from his decrees. 24 I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin. 25 The LORD has rewarded me according to my righteousness, according to my cleanness [f] in his sight

 

Noah could do it: Gen6:9 ...Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.

 

 

 

1. God grants us His grace & mercy so that we receive a salvation we don't deserve and could not earn.

 

2. Repentance and faith lead to true reformation conducted from a grateful heart and from the motive of love to God & others, rather than in a reform effort conducted to earn salvation.

 

3. To believe in a holy God who created the universe, who loves us, who sent His Son to redeem us from our rebellion - very believable. Would a God any less than this be worthy of worship and adoration?

 

1. This is Paul and it is unjust. A righteous man may burn in hell while an evil man may enjoy heaven. What ever you may call it, this is not justice. Ezekiel's plan of salvation is just.

 

2. This is what you have to say because you have to hold Paul over Ezekiel. Nevertheless Ezekiel says your own righteousness wipes your past sin. Nevertheless Ezekiel disagrees with Paul.

 

3. It is not very believable, most people upon the earth do not believe it. I find the idea too incredible to believe. According to Calvin you can't believe it unless God grants you a special grace. Where did Calvin get that idea? From Paul. Again it is unjust. This is not to say an all powerful being can't choose to be unjust. What are you going to do about it?

[chefranden]

I'm the one who stated that Paul's plan of salvation (and the salvific plan of Jesus) are not different than Ezekiel's plan. God's plan of salvation has always been the same - that's a main point of the Book of Galatians.

 

Yes I know, but it is different whatever Galatians says. There's no context between Ezekiel and Paul except in your mind. No one listening to Ezekiel before Paul would know about Paul. Therefore outside of Paul Ezekiel is at the least misleading, if not an outright lie. You just get Paul out of your head for a moment, and pretend you are reading Ezekiel hot off the press.

 

 

1. I have shown you that Jesus & Paul both stated that faith in God was requisite for salvation - 2. and that true faith is evidenced by right living...

 

1. So? Either Yahweh gave false information information through Ezekiel or through Paul as both plans directly contradict each other. I'm not arguing that you can't find a different plan of salvation elsewhere. You can. That's my point. There are several plans of salvation. Which is correct? You want to say Paul, but why should I or anyone accept that?

 

2. I live right. Do I have faith? I don't think so.

 

How much right living does it take to prove you have true faith. You think you've gotten out of the works dilemma, but you haven't. If you need good works to prove your faith which in turn makes you righteous, it is no different than being made righteous by your good work. It's either works or not works, which is it?

 

1. When you're a new creature in Christ you have a new heart, new desires, new goals, new motivations - the fruit of which is good, godly works. 2. Without the fruit, there is every reason to doubt and question whether there's a new heart, whether there is salavtion.

 

1. Well so you say, but I haven't found this to be the case. Just look at the US prison population. The prisons are not full of atheists. They are full of Christians.

 

2. So in other word we just cut to the chase, good works is salvation.

 

Does a TrueChristian™ just do good works kind of like a zombie? Or does a TrueChristian™ have to put effort into his good works? If these works are of his effort, how much effort is necessary? Does God make allowances for energy levels and differences of metabolism?

 

If the good works come out of some sort of magic why doesn't everyone that makes an effort(work) to give his/her heart to god get this good heart? Is the person's fault? Is it that person hasn't been chosen for grace? If it is the person's fault how much good intention does the person have to supply before God will give him this good heart to prove the person's sins have been wiped away? How is this mustering of intention any different than works?

 

Your problem is that you want to lift certain parts of Ezekiel out of the context of the book, and the Bible as a whole. That, my friend, is eisegesis. Notice that Ezek 1:1 - 28 shows the likeness of the glory of God, from there on God calls Ezekiel as His prophet for a ministry;

Eze 1:1 In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I was among the exiles by the Chebar canal, the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

Eze 1:2 On the fifth day of the month (it was the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin),

Eze 1:3 the word of the LORD came to Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the Chebar canal, and the hand of the LORD was upon him there.

Eze 2:1 And he said to me, "Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak with you."

Eze 2:2 And as he spoke to me, the Spirit entered into me and set me on my feet, and I heard him speaking to me.

Eze 2:3 And he said to me, "Son of man, I send you to the people of Israel, to nations of rebels, who have rebelled against me. They and their fathers have transgressed against me to this very day.

Eze 2:4 The descendants also are impudent and stubborn: I send you to them, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.'

Eze 3:10 Moreover, he said to me, "Son of man, all my words that I shall speak to you receive in your heart, and hear with your ears.

Eze 3:11 And go to the exiles, to your people, and speak to them and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,' whether they hear or refuse to hear."

Eze 3:12 Then the Spirit lifted me up, and I heard behind me the voice of a great earthquake: "Blessed be the glory of the LORD from its place!"

 

I haven't lifted anything out of context. And this passage doesn't say anything contrary to what I've so far shown. It only shows where Ezekiel got the plan of salvation that he offers -- which plan is different from Paul's.

 

1 Do you think God initiated a work in Ezekiel? Do you think Ezekiel believed in and then obeyed the Biblical God? Do you think he preached so that others would believe and then obey God?

 

2 Do you actually seriously think that God requires someone to obey all His decrees devoid of or apart from faith in Him - and that is pleasing to God and worthy of salvation? Where is there any Scripture to warrant such?

 

1 Well no I actually don't. I actually think that Ezekiel saw the wheel after ingesting a bad mushroom. But I'm sure he believed in his version of Yahweh, and preached to convince others of his version. If I had to choose between them after hearing Ezekiel and Paul debate, I'd choose Ezekiel as the winner. Zeke makes more sense in spite of the mushroom.

 

2. Seriously I don't think God requires anything. It is not possible for a non-entity to require anything. I argue as if God existed for your sake, because I've had experience with believing as you do, because you have difficulty with the no God concept and I have compassion on this difficulty, and because it's fun argue from scripture.

 

As to whether the supposed God requires someone to obey all his decrees without faith in him, ask the Amalekites.

[centauri]

...God's plan of salvation has always been the same - that's a main point of the Book of Galatians.

No, it hasn't always been the same.

There is nothing in Ezek 18 that says people need to have faith in a vicarious human sacrifice in order to be saved.

 

Your problem is that you want to lift certain parts of Ezekiel out of the context of the book, and the Bible as a whole. That, my friend, is eisegesis.

They didn't lift anything out of context.

You want to read Jesus into everything and he's nowhere to be found in Ezek 18.

[centauri]

I make this to be different because Yahweh is saying you can keep his decrees, or else there would be no reason to dictate the passage at all.

 

Yahweh is not saying you can keep His decrees, or else there's no reason for the dictate. God is commanding people to keep His decrees >> and then when people realize they cannot, they will cry out to God in humble confession & repentance and receive mercy & grace from God.

You're depicting God as a trickster.

In your version of salvation, he gives out laws and tells his people to obey them, knowing full well that they can't.

If the law couldn't be kept then Moses was a liar.

Deut 30:10-11(NIV)

if you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

 

Even the New Testament says that people were able to keep the law.

[GypsyMoon]

OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Same old arguments... same old shit.

 

Why do they bother us????????????????????????????????

 

BECAUSE THEIR LIFE IS SO FRICKING BORING THEY HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Vixentrox]

<!--quoteo(post=463091:date=Jun 24 2009, 05:50 AM:name=Vixentrox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vixentrox @ Jun 24 2009, 05:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=463091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wish these Christians would go to North Korea and Saudia Arabia to spread the good word. Too bad most western Christians are too cowardly to do that. They don't actually have faith enough to leave everything behind and trust in god for thier saftey. Oh, and they should be happy to be matryrs for the faith. So here's a tip Christians, prove your faith and start by preaching in those two countries instead of to us that have "been there, done that". Soldiers for the faith, more like gutless cowards for the faith all we get around here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

 

There are alot of Christians in alot of dangerous places, preaching the Gospel and performing humanitarian work - I suggest you do some homework before posting nonsense.

And you? Are you in Saudior N. Korea preaching to the locals? Didn't think so. Gutless coward for the lord? Not one Christian poster on this site that I recall have ever claimed to be a missionary in those countries.

[Guest mcduderson]

<!--quoteo(post=463091:date=Jun 24 2009, 05:50 AM:name=Vixentrox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vixentrox @ Jun 24 2009, 05:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=463091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wish these Christians would go to North Korea and Saudia Arabia to spread the good word. Too bad most western Christians are too cowardly to do that. They don't actually have faith enough to leave everything behind and trust in god for thier saftey. Oh, and they should be happy to be matryrs for the faith. So here's a tip Christians, prove your faith and start by preaching in those two countries instead of to us that have "been there, done that". Soldiers for the faith, more like gutless cowards for the faith all we get around here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

 

There are alot of Christians in alot of dangerous places, preaching the Gospel and performing humanitarian work - I suggest you do some homework before posting nonsense.

And you? Are you in Saudior N. Korea preaching to the locals? Didn't think so. Gutless coward for the lord? Not one Christian poster on this site that I recall have ever claimed to be a missionary in those countries.

 

American Christians aren't too active there but there are christians from other countries who are. Theres a sort of underground railroad from Pyongyang to China for NK defectors and Chinese Churches play a role in that. In fact, with 1% of 1 billion+ Chinese being Christian its become one of the biggest sending countries for missionaries.

[Vigile]

 

American Christians aren't too active there but there are christians from other countries who are. Theres a sort of underground railroad from Pyongyang to China for NK defectors and Chinese Churches play a role in that. In fact, with 1% of 1 billion+ Chinese being Christian its become one of the biggest sending countries for missionaries.

 

Lovely. Spreading the meme so that people in an already fucked up oppressive situation will be even more fucked up and oppressed; all for an empty belief.

[rayskidude]

<!--quoteo(post=463091:date=Jun 24 2009, 05:50 AM:name=Vixentrox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vixentrox @ Jun 24 2009, 05:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=463091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wish these Christians would go to North Korea and Saudia Arabia to spread the good word. Too bad most western Christians are too cowardly to do that. They don't actually have faith enough to leave everything behind and trust in god for thier saftey. Oh, and they should be happy to be matryrs for the faith. So here's a tip Christians, prove your faith and start by preaching in those two countries instead of to us that have "been there, done that". Soldiers for the faith, more like gutless cowards for the faith all we get around here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

 

There are alot of Christians in alot of dangerous places, preaching the Gospel and performing humanitarian work - I suggest you do some homework before posting nonsense.

And you? Are you in Saudior N. Korea preaching to the locals? Didn't think so. Gutless coward for the lord? Not one Christian poster on this site that I recall have ever claimed to be a missionary in those countries.

 

Actually, my wife and I lived as missionaries in Iraq for 6 months; Nov '07 - May '08.

[chefranden]

Actually, my wife and I lived as missionaries in Iraq for 6 months; Nov '07 - May '08.

 

Wow! And how did that go for you? Did you get oodles of converts? Were they dying to see the light, or just dying? Did Yahweh come out ahead, or did Allah have too many iron chariots?

[Vixentrox]

<!--quoteo(post=463091:date=Jun 24 2009, 05:50 AM:name=Vixentrox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vixentrox @ Jun 24 2009, 05:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=463091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wish these Christians would go to North Korea and Saudia Arabia to spread the good word. Too bad most western Christians are too cowardly to do that. They don't actually have faith enough to leave everything behind and trust in god for thier saftey. Oh, and they should be happy to be matryrs for the faith. So here's a tip Christians, prove your faith and start by preaching in those two countries instead of to us that have "been there, done that". Soldiers for the faith, more like gutless cowards for the faith all we get around here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

 

There are alot of Christians in alot of dangerous places, preaching the Gospel and performing humanitarian work - I suggest you do some homework before posting nonsense.

And you? Are you in Saudior N. Korea preaching to the locals? Didn't think so. Gutless coward for the lord? Not one Christian poster on this site that I recall have ever claimed to be a missionary in those countries.

 

Actually, my wife and I lived as missionaries in Iraq for 6 months; Nov '07 - May '08.

Iraq not even in the same ball park as Saudi Arrabia or N. Korea. Particularily since it's been occupied by western forces for some years.

[Vixentrox]

<!--quoteo(post=463091:date=Jun 24 2009, 05:50 AM:name=Vixentrox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vixentrox @ Jun 24 2009, 05:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=463091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wish these Christians would go to North Korea and Saudia Arabia to spread the good word. Too bad most western Christians are too cowardly to do that. They don't actually have faith enough to leave everything behind and trust in god for thier saftey. Oh, and they should be happy to be matryrs for the faith. So here's a tip Christians, prove your faith and start by preaching in those two countries instead of to us that have "been there, done that". Soldiers for the faith, more like gutless cowards for the faith all we get around here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

 

There are alot of Christians in alot of dangerous places, preaching the Gospel and performing humanitarian work - I suggest you do some homework before posting nonsense.

And you? Are you in Saudior N. Korea preaching to the locals? Didn't think so. Gutless coward for the lord? Not one Christian poster on this site that I recall have ever claimed to be a missionary in those countries.

 

American Christians aren't too active there but there are christians from other countries who are. Theres a sort of underground railroad from Pyongyang to China for NK defectors and Chinese Churches play a role in that. In fact, with 1% of 1 billion+ Chinese being Christian its become one of the biggest sending countries for missionaries.

And you? Why are YOU not there? Those Christians over there are not HERE bothering us. Why are YOU not over there oh chicken for the faith? Afraid to loose your life? Possesions? Shouldn't you give up all your possessions and wear sack clothe and go out and preach? No, you of little faith are too scared for your life, family and belongings to go there and preach. You don't give a shit about those people's souls isn't that right?

[rayskidude]

Iraq not even in the same ball park as Saudi Arrabia or N. Korea. Particularily since it's been occupied by western forces for some years.

 

Wow - I can't believe that you think your posts actually contribute any meaningful thoughts. What makes you so judgmental of others - are you operating on a higher moral plane?

 

Were you living in the Iraqi city that we were in when the car bomb exploded - killing 2 and injuring dozens?

 

Seriously, what makes you think you can justifiably make accusations and condemn others before any interaction with them? Are your powers of intuition and cognizance so great that you can do these things? Please read other posts that have been written to address your rants - you are simply ignorant of where Christian missionaries are ( and have been) and what they're doing. BTW, did you read about the 2 German Christian college girls killed in Yemen recently while doing humanitarian work?

 

Why are you so bitter?

[rayskidude]

rayskidude' date='08 July 2009 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1247072722' post='466372']

Actually, my wife and I lived as missionaries in Iraq for 6 months; Nov '07 - May '08.

 

Wow! And how did that go for you? Did you get oodles of converts? Were they dying to see the light, or just dying?

 

Actually, we were with a team of 10. My wife is a nurse and provided a variety of medical training, we conducted 2 camps for Kurdish kids, we taught lots of English to college students and faculty >> all of which seemed genuinely appreciated. I am currently overseeing some health research conducted here in the USA for dental students we met there - at their request. We did not give any money away - but only our time and our lives to serve them.

 

Do you have any indications to the contrary?

[rayskidude]

rayskidude' post='465429' date='Jul 4 2009, 10:43 PM']...God's plan of salvation has always been the same - that's a main point of the Book of Galatians.

No, it hasn't always been the same.

 

Then why does Paul go all the way back to the example of Abraham to show that salvation has always been by grace through faith?

 

There is nothing in Ezek 18 that says people need to have faith in a vicarious human sacrifice in order to be saved.

 

So what - Ezek is not to be taken (nor is any other passage) out of the context of the book - and certainly Ezekiel believed in YHWH - and he called the Jews to believe and obey YHWH. And no Biblical passage is to be lifted out of the context of the whole Bible - is this really that difficult to understand - that the Bible is one unified collections of books - all culminating in the Person and Ministry of Jesus, God's Messiah. Are you saying you cannot understand this simple truth?

Your problem is that you want to lift certain parts of Ezekiel out of the context of the book, and the Bible as a whole. That, my friend, is eisegesis.

 

Since your a fan of & expert on Ezekiel - what's the point he's making below?

 

Eze 39:21 "And I will set my glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid on them.

Eze 39:22 The house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God, from that day forward.

Eze 39:23 And the nations shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity, because they dealt so treacherously with me that I hid my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they all fell by the sword.

Eze 39:24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their transgressions, and hid my face from them.

Eze 39:25 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for my holy name.

Eze 39:26 They shall forget their shame and all the treachery they have practiced against me, when they dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid,

Eze 39:27 when I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them from their enemies' lands, and through them have vindicated my holiness in the sight of many nations.

Eze 39:28 Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God, because I sent them into exile among the nations and then assembled them into their own land. I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore.

Eze 39:29 And I will not hide my face anymore from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, declares the Lord GOD."