Hi....i'm A Christian

[Astreja]

Sorry. I have apologised and asked people of their forgiveness. After that, I can't make them forgive me. Have I been able to find all the people I've wronged? No. That is why we all need grace and mercy.

Okay, apologizing is a good start. If you stole something, try to pay it back or pay the equivalent in money, goods, or time to your local food bank. And keep trying to find the other people.

[ThreeD]

"Because that was His plan. From beginning to end, it about God showing His wrath and mercy. He wanted to redeem a people. He doesn't just know past, present, and future, He has planned it from the beginning. "

 

He wanted to redeem a people he had even created yet?

 

It sounds like he wanted revenge for being dissed by this rebellious angel. Sounds like he created a bunch of itty bitty strawmen to knock down, beat up and set fire to... not unlike a 5 year old. He was really angry at this bad angel and instead of taking it out on him, he took it out on us clay pots that he created to be destroyed.

 

But let's say for that you are right in all that you believe.. can you tell me what is to keep another rebellion in heaven from happening when all of us wretched sinners get there with our free will? Then what? More clay pots that will be afraid of us haunting them and their children?

 

Well, I've said in this whole thread that God has planned everything. God was not "Surprised" by satans rebellion. God holds control over all His creation and He withdrew His light from then Lucifer and the other angels and the rebellion happened. And God doesn't take it out on us. And Satan has already got his punishment set in stone. Everything comes down to God saving people in order to show His love for them and bring glory to Himself. As for your question about redeeming people he hasn't created, then yes. I know many of you don't like scripture but in Ephesians, it says, all people that are saved were predestined to be so by God.

 

For your last question, no one gets there on their free will. Free will is something that does not exist in the sense that many people decribe it. See my post above. And what's to keep another rebellion from happening? God.

[Antlerman]

The thing is, He also forgave people in the Old as well.

So like humans, God is both good and evil. Made in the image of man, I'd say. Or the other way around if you prefer. It makes no difference, like father like sons.

 

Also let's say you did believe in a god, what would you say of that god, if he allowed you, the one who was created, to decide whether what He does is just or not? If you did beleive in a god, and he is creator of all, wouldn't you think he has the right to do things according to his purposes?

I would expect that god to allow himself to be judged as moral, since he would have given us the sense to judge what is moral and not. It would be completely contrary to a good parent to not set an example and have his child expect him to behave as he instructs them to. In fact any parent who would refuse a child looking at his behavior is not only a bad parent, but an insincere hypocrite on top of that. "Do as I say, not as I do". Except in God's case, according to you it would say, "Do as I say, and how dare you question me! To the furnace with you!"

 

Ahh.... then you can't say that man's nature is EVIL! Evil is evil. There is no good in evil.

 

Sounds like you don't believe what you say you do. So why do you choose to say you do? Don't you see the cracks and fissures in your doctrines, how they don't follow your heart? So which is right? Which should you believe?

 

Man's nature is evil, but what man considers good is even as filthy rags before God.

This is nonsensical. It sounds like circular reasoning. Ever see the movie Spinal Tap?

 

 

"But this one goes to 11".

 

Same thing.

 

Again, if man's nature is evil than he cannot do good. So you're parents raising you was not with love, but EVIL. You have a child and tell them you love them, but you LIE because you are EVIL and there is no love in that which is EVIL. You lie to your wife and your friends in saying you care, because you can't care because you are EVIL. Charity organization are not love, but EVIL because they are run by humans whose nature is EVIL.

 

OK, reality check. So what do you really believe?

[ThreeD]

But if you mean actively sending them there and making them go there, then no.

 

This is what I mean. I don't want to get into a debate about it here, but I also do not believe in free will. I am a determinist.

 

And yes God needs to be just in order to be all loving. You can't have all justice and wrath without showing love, and vice versa.

 

[A] You maintain that God is all-loving.

I gather that you also believe that he is all-knowing in the sense that he knows all that was, all that is, and all that shall come to pass.

[C] Finally, you insist that God does not actively make people go to hell or otherwise send them to hell.

 

I assume that you believe God created the universe, including human beings.

 

I would like to suggest to you that it is not possible to believe all three of these things simultaneously. If you accept [C], you must reject [A] or . If you accept [A] and , you must reject [C]. Here's why.

 

God is all-knowing. Therefore, before he even made one particle in the universe, he knew that there were some people X who would ultimately, to use your own words, "choose the devil as their father and reside with him in hell forever." Knowing this, still created those people.

 

You argue that God does not "make" people go to hell. My statements above show that God MADE X to have a destiny of torment, and he knew all along that he was doing it. GOD MADE PEOPLE FOR HELL.

 

An all-loving God would never create a being whose final destination was eternal torment.

 

If God doesn't "actively make people go to hell" or otherwise send them to hell, then he cannot be both all-loving and all-knowing.

 

Since the Christian god claims to satisfy [A], , and [C] simultaneously, we can confidently say, based on the above, that he does not exist.

 

 

Now, I have to finish my homework. Ciao, people.

 

-Oh ok. Well if I said God is all loving, then that was a typo. God is not just all love. He is love, mercy, wrath, justice, etc. Again most christianity paints this picture of God to believe that is a marshmallow God pleading with sinners to come. But God has other characteristics.

 

-God is not just all knowing because He sees through time. He is actively decreeing things to happen.

 

- God has created the wicked for the day of evil

 

-Despite all this man is still responsible because man is doing what he wants to do with many choices and decisions. God is involved in someones life either actively, or passively (which basically means he is not involved at all)

[Antlerman]

-Despite all this man is still responsible because man is doing what he wants to do with many choices and decisions. God is involved in someones life either actively, or passively (which basically means he is not involved at all)

Bullshit! I call bullshit. You explain how man is responsible if everything is predestined. What you made up above exposed your own sense of vulnerability with the doctrines you married yourself to. How is man responsible if he was foreordained to behave in such a way that it would fulfill god's plan? God is responsible. Is the little toy soldier you wound up and set loose on the path you set for it responsible, or are you? What "many choices"? How can there be choices? If many has any choice in the matter, than God's predestination is forfeit.

 

Ohh.... or is this one of those heavenly mysteries? Like the doctrine of the Trinity where 1+1+1=1?

 

P.S. Is John Calvin God?

[Jedah]

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p...p;postcount=331

 

Debunks pretty much the entire premise your getting at.

 

Thank you and goodnight.

[ThreeD]

The thing is, He also forgave people in the Old as well.

So like humans, God is both good and evil. Made in the image of man, I'd say. Or the other way around if you prefer. It makes no difference, like father like sons.

 

Also let's say you did believe in a god, what would you say of that god, if he allowed you, the one who was created, to decide whether what He does is just or not? If you did beleive in a god, and he is creator of all, wouldn't you think he has the right to do things according to his purposes?

I would expect that god to allow himself to be judged as moral, since he would have given us the sense to judge what is moral and not. It would be completely contrary to a good parent to not set an example and have his child expect him to behave as he instructs them to. In fact any parent who would refuse a child looking at his behavior is not only a bad parent, but an insincere hypocrite on top of that. "Do as I say, not as I do". Except in God's case, according to you it would say, "Do as I say, and how dare you question me! To the furnace with you!"

 

Ahh.... then you can't say that man's nature is EVIL! Evil is evil. There is no good in evil.

 

Sounds like you don't believe what you say you do. So why do you choose to say you do? Don't you see the cracks and fissures in your doctrines, how they don't follow your heart? So which is right? Which should you believe?

 

Man's nature is evil, but what man considers good is even as filthy rags before God.

This is nonsensical. It sounds like circular reasoning. Ever see the movie Spinal Tap?

 

 

"But this one goes to 11".

 

Same thing.

 

Again, if man's nature is evil than he cannot do good. So you're parents raising you was not with love, but EVIL. You have a child and tell them you love them, but you LIE because you are EVIL and there is no love in that which is EVIL. You lie to your wife and your friends in saying you care, because you can't care because you are EVIL. Charity organization are not love, but EVIL because they are run by humans whose nature is EVIL.

 

OK, reality check. So what do you really believe?

 

Ok then I'll be clear. Can man do good deeds? Yes. Can man care for his wife, children, and neighbor? yes. What do all these things have to do with spiritual good? Nothing. That's what I mean by being "evil". Even though man can do nice things to and for each other, the nature of sin will always come up at some point and you see it in the world today. How else can you explain someone leading a good family life, caring for his kids genuinely, yet he is a serial rapist on the loose at the same time. Even the nicest people will do something that people will say are out of character at times. I would say that man is spiritually dead because of sin. He cannot understand the things of God because of it which is why we say that good deeds mean nothing to God. Is it good to mankind? Of course it is. But it won't get you any closer to God without Christ. This is what makes man wicked.

[Dhampir]

You make it sound like god had planned for all the suffering and twists of justice and fairness that would occur throughout time from the beginning. Problem is that makes god less than just or loving. He's less than just in that HE planned for all this. He knew what would happen, and he knew that man would do evil unto man, and he knew what would happen as a result. How can a being be called just when he created us expressly for the purpose of suffering to serve his "plan"? He's not loving for the fact that... well, that part pretty much explains itself doesn't it?

 

Now, if you say that God's justice and benevolence are incomprehensible, because HE is incomprehensible, you have another problem. You see, WE define these words, and they only make sense if what you call by these terms fits those definitions. The god you worship clearly doesn't, so you can't logically or correctly use them to describe him. You've either got to assign another, more fitting word to describe him, assign new definitions to the words themselves, or admit that he fails to meet the definitions of Justice and benevolence.

 

The first option, if you can apply it without ending up with less than flattering terminology (like barbaric, or inhuman) will leave you with yet another word or phrase that you either can't define, or whose definition does nothing to explain the attribute. Words like "supremely just" or "infinitely benevolent". You can define these terms, but they won't tell you anything about God at all, just like the terms Just or Benevolent say nothing about a god who by all appearances does not fit them.

 

The second option is impracticable because God is incomprehensible. You're left in the same position as if you tried to come up with a new term. The third option is unacceptable because even though you know damn well you don't understand any better than we do how a god that can roast people eternally, or even allow it to happen can be called good, well, it MUST be true somehow. You take on faith that these things are true, even though you're smart enough to see that they are not. You fool yourself by saying things like "god's goodness is beyond our understanding, that's why all this ugliness is happening" or " I'll find out how it all was good after all when I die".

 

The bottom line: if it doesn't walk, quack or fly like a duck, it's probably not a duck.

Hope my explanation wasn't too convoluted. I'm not the best at explaining my position.

[ThreeD]

-Despite all this man is still responsible because man is doing what he wants to do with many choices and decisions. God is involved in someones life either actively, or passively (which basically means he is not involved at all)

Bullshit! I call bullshit. You explain how man is responsible if everything is predestined. What you made up above exposed your own sense of vulnerability with the doctrines you married yourself to. How is man responsible if he was foreordained to behave in such a way that it would fulfill god's plan? God is responsible. Is the little toy soldier you wound up and set loose on the path you set for it responsible, or are you? What "many choices"? How can there be choices? If many has any choice in the matter, than God's predestination is forfeit.

 

Ohh.... or is this one of those heavenly mysteries? Like the doctrine of the Trinity where 1+1+1=1?

 

P.S. Is John Calvin God?

 

Hey I can't explain it to you but that's how it is looking from scripture. Man still has choices and is responsible because he has made the choices. God is not forcing them to make these decisions but looks at the nature of certain men, and uses their evil purposes for good. For example, I don't know if you know the story about Joseph and his brothers. His brothers had planned for him to be burned and incinerated because they hated Joseph. When they threw him into the fire, he survived and was not burned because of God. Now God did not make the brothers do this, yet He says, what they meant for evil, God meant it for good. God passively and actively decrees things to happen for His good and purposes, yet man still is responsible for his choices.

 

And no Calvin is not God. All he did was discover what was already in the bible but was just forgotten and thrown away because of heresies in the church. In fact, I already held to these positions without even knowing it before knowing about Calvin.

[mahjong]

This is what came to my mind when I read the first post:

 

Genesis 4:14

King James Bible

Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

 

Look at OJ Simpson. This is what happens when you murder, you have no peace, nowhere to lay your head, no one cares for you or about you.

 

And, P.S., look at all the people on the earth who were/are convicted, wrongly. What god was watching out for them?

 

Children of a lesser god, that's who they are...

[ThreeD]

You make it sound like god had planned for all the suffering and twists of justice and fairness that would occur throughout time from the beginning. Problem is that makes god less than just or loving. He's less than just in that HE planned for all this. He knew what would happen, and he knew that man would do evil unto man, and he knew what would happen as a result. How can a being be called just when he created us expressly for the purpose of suffering to serve his "plan"? He's not loving for the fact that... well, that part pretty much explains itself doesn't it?

 

Yup. Let me ask you this. Would you like to have evil in this world knowing that a. it either exists or just happens without a purpose or b. there actually is a purpose for it happening

 

Now, if you say that God's justice and benevolence are incomprehensible, because HE is incomprehensible, you have another problem. You see, WE define these words, and they only make sense if what you call by these terms fits those definitions. The god you worship clearly doesn't, so you can't logically or correctly use them to describe him. You've either got to assign another, more fitting word to describe him, assign new definitions to the words themselves, or admit that he fails to meet the definitions of Justice and benevolence.

 

The first option, if you can apply it without ending up with less than flattering terminology (like barbaric, or inhuman) will leave you with yet another word or phrase that you either can't define, or whose definition does nothing to explain the attribute. Words like "supremely just" or "infinitely benevolent". You can define these terms, but they won't tell you anything about God at all, just like the terms Just or Benevolent say nothing about a god who by all appearances does not fit them.

 

The second option is impracticable because God is incomprehensible. You're left in the same position as if you tried to come up with a new term. The third option is unacceptable because even though you know damn well you don't understand any better than we do how a god that can roast people eternally, or even allow it to happen can be called good, well, it MUST be true somehow. You take on faith that these things are true, even though you're smart enough to see that they are not. You fool yourself by saying things like "god's goodness is beyond our understanding, that's why all this ugliness is happening" or " I'll find out how it all was good after all when I die".

 

The bottom line: if it doesn't walk, quack or fly like a duck, it's probably not a duck.

Hope my explanation wasn't too convoluted. I'm not the best at explaining my position.

Well yes I take it by faith, but also creation. I don't want to get into a debate about that because it has been done over and over and we will just run around in circles. And yes I am kind of confused by the rest of your statement.

[ThreeD]

This is what came to my mind when I read the first post:

 

Genesis 4:14

King James Bible

Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

 

Look at OJ Simpson. This is what happens when you murder, you have no peace, nowhere to lay your head, no one cares for you or about you.

 

And, P.S., look at all the people on the earth who were/are convicted, wrongly. What god was watching out for them?

 

Children of a lesser god, that's who they are...

 

Well people are under the impression that God is supposed to give His children an easy life. Most christians know this to be false in that it says we will have trials and tribulation in this life...I mean hey, that's life. I'm not saved for a rosy happy go lucky life.

[ThreeD]

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p...p;postcount=331

 

Debunks pretty much the entire premise your getting at.

 

Thank you and goodnight.

 

Well I don't think it does but cool.

 

P.S. I like anime too...not all of it of course lol, but I have quite a few fav shows.

[white_raven23]

This christian isn't even worth it.

 

Just another generic, unoriginal, sheep come here to bleat their beliefs as if ANY of us gave a shit.

 

And they always love to start with the most mentally deficient questions EVER.

 

Having to ask us if we essentially FEEL, as though somehow we are a completely different species from them is so fucking insulting. Especially when they just use their retardo questions as the launch pad to evangelize INSTEAD of actually try for understanding us! It's not like we give a crap what their beliefs are. And it's not like we haven't heard their oral defecation before.

 

Go off, christian. If that is the path you want for your life, then GO live your christian life away from those who specifically do NOT want it. We don't think less of you for that.

 

What we despise is your coming HERE. NOT in any true attempt at common ground, but to try and push us into some sort of "admission" that your worldview is somehow "right". Having a need for validation of your own faith by people who specifically do NOT believe...is a really pathetic demonstration of how insecure you really are in your faith, and that is YOUR problem, not ours.

 

So either change direction, and really try to find that common ground and LEARN about why we believes something differently from you...or get the FUCK OUT and go live your christian life.

[RankStranger]

ThreeD, I'd just like to say howdy and welcome to the forum. Glad you're here- you're helping people out in ways that you can't possibly understand (yet?).

 

You just keep goin' and goin'. I'm impressed- but don't burn yourself out. There'll be plenty more infidels tomorrow. And the next day.

[ThreeD]

This christian isn't even worth it.

 

Just another generic, unoriginal, sheep come here to bleat their beliefs as if ANY of us gave a shit.

 

And they always love to start with the most mentally deficient questions EVER.

 

Having to ask us if we essentially FEEL, as though somehow we are a completely different species from them is so fucking insulting. Especially when they just use their retardo questions as the launch pad to evangelize INSTEAD of actually try for understanding us! It's not like we give a crap what their beliefs are. And it's not like we haven't heard their oral defecation before.

 

Go off, christian. If that is the path you want for your life, then GO live your christian life away from those who specifically do NOT want it. We don't think less of you for that.

 

What we despise is your coming HERE. NOT in any true attempt at common ground, but to try and push us into some sort of "admission" that your worldview is somehow "right". Having a need for validation of your own faith by people who specifically do NOT believe...is a really pathetic demonstration of how insecure you really are in your faith, and that is YOUR problem, not ours.

 

So either change direction, and really try to find that common ground and LEARN about why we believes something differently from you...or get the FUCK OUT and go live your christian life.

 

So be it.

[chefranden]

Well if you look at it like this in that man in his sin state doesn't want God. He doesn't want anything to do with God and hates God.

 

You are kind of a noob at this apologetic stuff aren't you? Well everyone has to start somewhere.

 

Just some advice that you may have gotten already since I haven't read the whole thread yet: The name of the joint is Ex-Christian. You see that means we know the doctrine. Some of us have been to Seminary and have been ministers, preachers, missionaries, deacons, elders, and what have you. I'd make a rather safe wager that 90% of the folks here know the scripture way better than you. We tend to find that Christians that stay Christian tend to use the Bible as a fashion accessory rather than a book. That may not be true in your case, but it remains to be seen. Anyway just so you know you don't have to explain the doctrine -- get it?

 

If you keep on people are likely to get short with you.

 

 

As to your OP, as me olde granny useta say, "If wishes were horses beggars would ride."

[ThreeD]

Well ok then. I'll be on my way. Thanks for the discussion.

[Casey]

Well people are under the impression that God is supposed to give His children an easy life. Most christians know this to be false in that it says we will have trials and tribulation in this life...I mean hey, that's life. I'm not saved for a rosy happy go lucky life.

 

Yes, I'd agree with the "That's life" bit, for that is exactly so, but every time you look at some televangelist's show you hear them go on about "The more you give the more you will have". You are urged to donate to the cause even if you're so broke that if it cost a quarter to go on a world tour you wouldn't get past the end of your street. I think that's called "The Prosperity Gospel" or some such name. When, however, one looks at the lifestyles of various televangelists (the one's who've not been defrocked as yet), one sees that in God's kingdom it is as George Orwell said, "Some pigs are more equal than other pigs". How's that work then?

Casey

[godlessgrrl]

Well you're not going to like the answer lol but because of the Word of God.

 

I see.

 

A simple "no" would've sufficed.

 

Well ok then. I'll be on my way. Thanks for the discussion.

 

Don't let the door hit ya where the dog shoulda bit ya.

[Casey]

edit, double post

Casey

[chefranden]

Man's nature is evil, but what man considers good is even as filthy rags before God.

 

Ok, I'll stipulate that you are an evil bastard and that no one should trust you around their kids.

Being as you are an evil bastard, I don't know why I should listen to the likes of you. I suspect you are the sort that pulls wings off of fairies and wipes snot under the table. Probably you cheat on your taxes, watch porn, and think that George Bush is a nice man. You lick the ass of the Great Mafia Don in the Sky who drowns kittens and children when he's having a bad day and says oops afterward.

 

Yupper you're a bad one alright. If you like I've some extra firewood in the shed with which I could burn you at the stake.

 

By the way have you been immersed for the forgiveness of your sin?

[ThreeD]

Well people are under the impression that God is supposed to give His children an easy life. Most christians know this to be false in that it says we will have trials and tribulation in this life...I mean hey, that's life. I'm not saved for a rosy happy go lucky life.

 

Yes, I'd agree with the "That's life" bit, for that is exactly so, but every time you look at some televangelist's show you hear them go on about "The more you give the more you will have". You are urged to donate to the cause even if you're so broke that if it cost a quarter to go on a world tour you wouldn't get past the end of your street. I think that's called "The Prosperity Gospel" or some such name. When, however, one looks at the lifestyles of various televangelists (the one's who've not been defrocked as yet), one sees that in God's kingdom it is as George Orwell said, "Some pigs are more equal than other pigs". How's that work then?

Casey

 

Yes they are false prophets and it makes me sick.

 

Ok I'm gone forreal now lol.

[Dhampir]

Yup. Let me ask you this. Would you like to have evil in this world knowing that a. it either exists or just happens without a purpose or b. there actually is a purpose for it happening

The former, precisely because... Well, let me answer that by asking you a question. Would you like it if the man that killed your child told you that he had a definite plan and purpose for doing it, rather than that it was unintentional and/or accidental?

 

The basic gist of my last post was that any God that had perfect foreknowledge of all the pain and suffering his creation would cause is not, and CAN NOT be good, just, or any of the positive things you call him. It is logically and morally impossible to say that any being that would knowingly create or allow the guinea worm link, genocide, or Barbara Streisand, is good in any way.

[chefranden]

Well, I've said in this whole thread that God has planned everything. God was not "Surprised" by satans rebellion...

 

Everything? Then God plans abortions, so why are you nut cases so down on it?

 

If God plans everything then he plans to have the people here be unbelievers, so what's your problem with us. Were just following the plan.

 

If God plans everything the God plans evil. What is an all good God doing planing evil? And why is he pissed off about it when it comes to pass.

 

You know that murderer above that gets off the hook in this life? Yep, God planned it that way. You said so. According to you were are just fancy tin soldiers on the chess board of God. By the way if I happen to smack you up side the head with a two by four don't take it personal. It is just God's plan.