Hi....i'm A Christian

[florduh]

In answer to the question, see my signature line.

[ThreeD]

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

He doesn't get his "just due".

 

I don't really see the issue with this. I also don't see where this is going...unless we are walking towards something along the lines of "Where do we get our sense of right and wrong? Or sense of justice and injustice? How can there be morality without a god?"

 

Or, maybe it really and truly wasn't meant to go anywhere, in which case I am really confused. Like, I don't see the value or purpose in the question.

I'm sorry for not being clear. Yes that was along the lines I was going. I would think people would want justice either way. The wicked have to get punished whether it's in this life, the afterlife, or even both if you want a God that is just...and you should.

 

Let's take that example of the murder or something as simple as a robbery. Let's say they catch him and he's on trial. Wouldn't you want the judge to be just. What if the judge said, "Well you only stole a few things...people have stolen before and not gotten caught. I'll let you off with a warning. You don't deserve jail as there are people who have done much worse than you"

 

And here you are sitting in the court room with your car gone, $20,000 in savings gone, along with other valuable things. Would that be fair?

 

I would certainly want the judge to be just. And yes, if there is a god, I would want him to be just.

 

I don't think that the argument here is about whether or not justice is something to be desired. It is about what it means to be just and what qualifies as just. And the Christian god is not just. Justice is more than simply punishing those who do wrong. It is about issuing a just punishment - a punishment that is reflective of the "crime" committed. A just judge is just to both the victim and the perpetrator.

 

And no, I do not think that the judge's verdict in your scenario is just.

 

And I do not think that eternal torture is a just punishment for any wrong-doing.

 

I think that's what people have the problem with. The eternal punishment. I think I may have said it in this thread (maybe not) but it all comes down to who you follow. If the wicked are doing wicked deeds which are of the devil their father and the devil ends up in hell, why would they not want to follow him?

[HelloWorld]

I think that's what people have the problem with. The eternal punishment. I think I may have said it in this thread (maybe not) but it all comes down to who you follow. If the wicked are doing wicked deeds which are of the devil their father and the devil ends up in hell, why would they not want to follow him?

 

Would it be correct for me to say, then, that you believe that God does not will people to hell? You believe that people choose hell themselves by their free will?

 

Would you also agree that God needs to be just in order to be all-loving?

[Casey]

Who's to say the hypothetical murderer in this case doesn't get punished? I believe he will, but not for eternity. I'll put it this way, in this life human beings tend to hang about with others of their ilk, right? By and large, an honest man doesn't consort with criminals, and criminals don't consort with honest men. That's just the way it is. Well then my own theory is, and I would stress it is but a theory, that the same holds true in the afterlife.

 

That is to say, a person that has been a good person in this life will gravitate towards other good people (birds of a feather flock together) and someone who was the very opposite will do the same; they will go towards those who were like them. Thus when christians say, "God doesn't send anyone to Hell, they choose it for themselves", there is a grain of truth in that. If you consort with thieves, robbers and other villains, in one way or another your life will be a misery, and that's in the here and now.

 

In fact it's quite possible you will get so hardened that in the end you won't even feel comfortable around honest people. If that is true in this life, why should it not be so in the next? (If there be any life after death) Yet it is possible in this life for criminals to "wake up to themselves" and see themselves for what they are, and so cease and desist their criminal activities. It isn't easy, yet it does happen. Thus I should say (and again it is only a theory) that those who end up in "Hell" in the afterlife will stay there until they too come to realise "There is a better way than this". If that involves reincarnation (in another human form) so be it. The point is you will pay for what you have done, not for eternity as christians would have it, but until you decide to straighten yourself out, and that may take a bloody long time, eh?

Casey

[Astreja]

Bottom line I just want to say that God has to punish evil and be just.

Existential fallacy: No evidence for the existence of your god.

 

The thing is, you're evil. I'm evil. Man is evil.

 

That, sir, is slander. Our actions are evil, or they are good. They are not part of our nature, and until otherwise demonstrated, they do not follow us beyond the grave.

 

As good as we all think we may be at times, there are those times that I can attest of where I know I did someone wrong whether by stealing or straight up doing a girl wrong by cheating.

 

And what did you do to make amends to the human you wronged?

 

If you did nothing at all, you are not in a position to lecture anyone about morality.

 

The thing is (and yes I already know it sounds crazy to all of you) God decided to come to earth as a man, to appease men everywhere and bear the burden of that punishment.

Yes, that does sound crazy. Batsh*t crazy, in fact. And a totally cracked form of "making things right".

 

But yes all men are puppets in some way shape or form... God has created vessels of wrath and mercy according to His purposes and if you don't believe in Him because of that, then cool.

 

What an absolutely horrible philosophy you espouse, ThreeD. I hope that you see the light of reason and move away from that nonsense very soon.

[ThreeD]

I think that's what people have the problem with. The eternal punishment. I think I may have said it in this thread (maybe not) but it all comes down to who you follow. If the wicked are doing wicked deeds which are of the devil their father and the devil ends up in hell, why would they not want to follow him?

 

Would it be correct for me to say, then, that you believe that God does not will people to hell? You believe that people choose hell themselves by their free will?

 

Would you also agree that God needs to be just in order to be all-loving?

 

Well to start off, free will is non existant. Free will is the ability to chose something equally without any influences. That doesn't exist. Everyone on this earth makes decisions and is driven by their desires. I make a choice to eat chocolate cake because I desire to do so at that time. Tiger Woods plays golf because he loves it and has desired to since he was young. He wouldn't be able to just quit or throw down his clubs unless he desired to do so. A will is purposing to do something but not always being able to do it so the will is not free. It is limited. You cannot chose to extend your life. You cannot chose to fly over the ocean without the use of a plane or other machine, and you may want to be a millionare, but circumstances prevent you from doing so. People make choices based on feelings, external circumstances, etc, so the will is not "Free". Man is always making choices based on something and not just because.

 

So to answer your question, no God does not will people to hell in the sense He does not make this choice for them. Like I stated above, man will do what he desires most at any given moment. If man has a sinful nature, he will always make decisions according to that nature because well, that is his nature. A dog can be nothing but a dog and bark and chase squirrels. It can't meow or moo or swim because that's not it's nature.

 

But yes God can allow them by removing His hand from their lives to go to destruction. If that's what you mean by willing people to hell then I would say yes. But if you mean actively sending them there and making them go there, then no.

 

And yes God needs to be just in order to be all loving. You can't have all justice and wrath without showing love, and vice versa.

[Antlerman]

The thing is, you're evil. I'm evil. Man is evil. As good as we all think we may be at times, there are those times that I can attest of where I know I did someone wrong whether by stealing or straight up doing a girl wrong by cheating.

And being less than perfect therefore qualifies you to be called "Evil"? How psychologically damaging! There's no middle ground, no I'm a good person for the most part who sometimes acts badly? No grace in you? No compassion? Just hard, razor sharp absolute capital punishment for any infraction. Not even a finger cut off for taking a cookie, but full and total decapitation?

 

Ouch, what happened to make you look at people like this?

 

Man is selfish, prideful, and arrogant.

And good, and loving, and compassionate, and forgiving, and graceful, and hopeful, and giving, and, and, and..... let's keep them coming! Give it a try! It feels good. It's also true.

[ThreeD]

Bottom line I just want to say that God has to punish evil and be just.

Existential fallacy: No evidence for the existence of your god.

 

The thing is, you're evil. I'm evil. Man is evil.

 

That, sir, is slander. Our actions are evil, or they are good. They are not part of our nature, and until otherwise demonstrated, they do not follow us beyond the grave.

 

As good as we all think we may be at times, there are those times that I can attest of where I know I did someone wrong whether by stealing or straight up doing a girl wrong by cheating.

 

And what did you do to make amends to the human you wronged?

 

If you did nothing at all, you are not in a position to lecture anyone about morality.

 

The thing is (and yes I already know it sounds crazy to all of you) God decided to come to earth as a man, to appease men everywhere and bear the burden of that punishment.

Yes, that does sound crazy. Batsh*t crazy, in fact. And a totally cracked form of "making things right".

 

But yes all men are puppets in some way shape or form... God has created vessels of wrath and mercy according to His purposes and if you don't believe in Him because of that, then cool.

 

What an absolutely horrible philosophy you espouse, ThreeD. I hope that you see the light of reason and move away from that nonsense very soon.

 

Well hey, as I said, if the reasons stated above are your reasons (among many) for not believing, then more power to you.

[GraphicsGuy]

Bottom line I just want to say that God has to punish evil and be just.

 

So God has to punish the evil that HE created in the first place? According to mainstream Xian theology he KNEW it would all happen this way so he created Lucifer on purpose to become evil incarnate. He KNEW that Adam and Eve would "fall".

 

The thing is, you're evil. I'm evil. Man is evil.

 

Ah yes. The incredibly negative Xian worldview that we all suck. Dude, I'm not evil. Why do you think you're so evil? What have you done so bad in your life? Looked at a woman and wanted to sleep with her? Jack off every night while viewing porn? Wanted to steal something? Wanted to have a beer?

 

Wow, you're just incredibly horrible...NOT!

 

Man is selfish, prideful, and arrogant.

 

All rather redundant tendencies there, by the way. But what about our good points? Caring, loving, happy, etc.? And no, those things DON'T come from "god".

 

So if God has to justly punish the wicked, that includes all of mankind.

 

So God made us just to punish us? Is that it? Going by the Xian view of things we're talking about 90% of ALL humanity that has ever lived being punished by your "loving" god.

 

(and yes I already know it sounds crazy to all of you)

 

Ahh...you obviously don't believe we ever really believed it. Made sense to all of us at some point...and then we woke up...

 

God decided to come to earth as a man, to appease men everywhere and bear the burden of that punishment.

 

Again, God KNEW all this was going to happen so he planned to sacrifice himself to himself at what point exactly?

[GraphicsGuy]

Oh yes...hypothesis here...

 

If I create sentient life do I have the right to tell them how to live their lives?

[ThreeD]

The thing is, you're evil. I'm evil. Man is evil. As good as we all think we may be at times, there are those times that I can attest of where I know I did someone wrong whether by stealing or straight up doing a girl wrong by cheating.

And being less than perfect therefore qualifies you to be called "Evil"? How psychologically damaging! There's no middle ground, no I'm a good person for the most part who sometimes acts badly? No grace in you? No compassion? Just hard, razor sharp absolute capital punishment for any infraction. Not even a finger cut off for taking a cookie, but full and total decapitation?

 

Ouch, what happened to make you look at people like this?

 

Man is selfish, prideful, and arrogant.

And good, and loving, and compassionate, and forgiving, and graceful, and hopeful, and giving, and, and, and..... let's keep them coming! Give it a try! It feels good. It's also true.

 

"And being less than perfect therefore qualifies you to be called "Evil"? How psychologically damaging! There's no middle ground, no I'm a good person for the most part who sometimes acts badly? No grace in you? No compassion? Just hard, razor sharp absolute capital punishment for any infraction. Not even a finger cut off for taking a cookie, but full and total decapitation?"

 

Exactly. No one is perfect and we all do some things that we are not proud of. The question is, is it okay to get away with these things? That's what Christ is for. For the simple fact that man can't be perfect, and cannot be good all the time.

 

"And good, and loving, and compassionate, and forgiving, and graceful, and hopeful, and giving, and, and, and..... let's keep them coming! Give it a try! It feels good. It's also true."

 

I would agree at times.

[godlessgrrl]

Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

If they don't get caught, that is indeed the end of it. Justice is not served according to society's dictates, though the individual's death does mean that a potentially dangerous individual has been removed from society by some means or other.

 

Independent of that: you make a lot of positive assertions about god. Is there some compelling reason why they should be regarded as anything other than your own opinion?

[Antlerman]

The thing is, you're evil. I'm evil. Man is evil. As good as we all think we may be at times, there are those times that I can attest of where I know I did someone wrong whether by stealing or straight up doing a girl wrong by cheating.

And being less than perfect therefore qualifies you to be called "Evil"? How psychologically damaging! There's no middle ground, no I'm a good person for the most part who sometimes acts badly? No grace in you? No compassion? Just hard, razor sharp absolute capital punishment for any infraction. Not even a finger cut off for taking a cookie, but full and total decapitation?

Exactly. No one is perfect and we all do some things that we are not proud of. The question is, is it okay to get away with these things? That's what Christ is for. For the simple fact that man can't be perfect, and cannot be good all the time.

So you're saying we should follow Christs example and cut your child's head off for taking a cookie and disobeying you? Since one sin makes the whole thing sin, then their need be no wise judge necessary at all! One punishment only - DEATH. Remember Achan's kids...

 

Does this sound like the Light of the World to you, or blackness of heart? I vote for blackness of heart.

 

Man is selfish, prideful, and arrogant.

And good, and loving, and compassionate, and forgiving, and graceful, and hopeful, and giving, and, and, and..... let's keep them coming! Give it a try! It feels good. It's also true.

I would agree at times.

Ahh.... then you can't say that man's nature is EVIL! Evil is evil. There is no good in evil.

 

Sounds like you don't believe what you say you do. So why do you choose to say you do? Don't you see the cracks and fissures in your doctrines, how they don't follow your heart? So which is right? Which should you believe?

[♦ nivek ♦]

ThreeD:

 

In my real.world, "The Game with No Respawn" three dozens+ of people I was associated with were recently horribly murdered.

 

Didn't know them personally *yet*, the outfit that does the work we do ensures their privacy. Should these folks want to meet FtF here in America, we'd do it.

 

On their way out to the Freedom Bird they were robbed, their daughters and women raped, and all were shot down, bodies mangled then fired.

 

Easy enough for the old timers to say, sigh, and shrug shoulders, say "Ahhhhh, this is Africa.." and let things drop.

There is no end of violence in their lives.

 

Do I wish to settle some cosmic scores? Would I, if capable, ruck up, go hunt me some realllllllllly badddddd men?

Don't even use any of the gray cells. Of course I do.

 

No longer physically capable, and in turn sit here doing the make busy work this end of operation and hope some truckload of mouthy Mugabe supporters gets blow_the_fuck_away.

 

There is no "Cosmic Justice", there is no "Fair", hardly "close enough" when it comes to making things weigh right in the scales of life.

 

Yeah, the murderer who is not caught gets a "Gee, when I die, my crimes go with me scot free" card...

 

kevinFuckin'L

[ThreeD]

Bottom line I just want to say that God has to punish evil and be just.

 

So God has to punish the evil that HE created in the first place? According to mainstream Xian theology he KNEW it would all happen this way so he created Lucifer on purpose to become evil incarnate. He KNEW that Adam and Eve would "fall".

 

Yes He knew all this would happen and allowed it to happen.

 

The thing is, you're evil. I'm evil. Man is evil.

 

Ah yes. The incredibly negative Xian worldview that we all suck. Dude, I'm not evil. Why do you think you're so evil? What have you done so bad in your life? Looked at a woman and wanted to sleep with her? Jack off every night while viewing porn? Wanted to steal something? Wanted to have a beer?

 

Wow, you're just incredibly horrible...NOT!

 

In terms of looking at a woman, yes I have done that many times. Any man who said he hasn't is a liar. Thing is, I don't have a right to . I sicken myself when I violate a woman in my mind...not not saying it is wrong to admire beauty in a woman whehter it be physical or internal. I'm saying there's saying someone is beautiful, and there's just violating a woman with your mind whether she knows it or not. Porn sickens me as well. And yes I have looked at it. I look at it as if I had a daughter, would I want her doing this stuff? Not just about my pleasure but thinking about the degredation of women. Stealing is breaking the law. I have nothing against having a beer every now and then. Some of it tastes good.

 

Man is selfish, prideful, and arrogant.

 

All rather redundant tendencies there, by the way. But what about our good points? Caring, loving, happy, etc.? And no, those things DON'T come from "god".

 

So if God has to justly punish the wicked, that includes all of mankind.

 

So God made us just to punish us? Is that it? Going by the Xian view of things we're talking about 90% of ALL humanity that has ever lived being punished by your "loving" god.

 

As I've stated in this thread before, he has created vessels of wrath and mercy. In Proverbs, it says He has created even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

(and yes I already know it sounds crazy to all of you)

 

Ahh...you obviously don't believe we ever really believed it. Made sense to all of us at some point...and then we woke up...

 

Yes I see.

 

God decided to come to earth as a man, to appease men everywhere and bear the burden of that punishment.

 

Again, God KNEW all this was going to happen so he planned to sacrifice himself to himself at what point exactly?

 

He planned this from the beginning. "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world". Yes everything was planned.

 

Oh yeah if I messed up your quotings and deleted something, forgive me, I'm trying to figure out the coding and severely messed up.

[Asimov]

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

Yes, I do believe that's the end of it. Face it: You may want closure and universal justice, but wanting something does not make it so.

 

Ok. So if a close family member of yours was the victim in such a heinous crime and the killer was not caught ever, you would be alright with that? You wouldn't want any justice to come down on that person.

 

That's retarded, of course I would want justice.

 

My desire is irrelevant to the facts of reality in that some people NEVER get caught. Fabricating a concept of "eternal justice" to placate myself and others isn't really dealing with the issue but concocting a fantasy-land to cope.

[HelloWorld]

But if you mean actively sending them there and making them go there, then no.

 

This is what I mean. I don't want to get into a debate about it here, but I also do not believe in free will. I am a determinist.

 

And yes God needs to be just in order to be all loving. You can't have all justice and wrath without showing love, and vice versa.

 

[A] You maintain that God is all-loving.

I gather that you also believe that he is all-knowing in the sense that he knows all that was, all that is, and all that shall come to pass.

[C] Finally, you insist that God does not actively make people go to hell or otherwise send them to hell.

 

I assume that you believe God created the universe, including human beings.

 

I would like to suggest to you that it is not possible to believe all three of these things simultaneously. If you accept [C], you must reject [A] or . If you accept [A] and , you must reject [C]. Here's why.

 

God is all-knowing. Therefore, before he even made one particle in the universe, he knew that there were some people X who would ultimately, to use your own words, "choose the devil as their father and reside with him in hell forever." Knowing this, still created those people.

 

You argue that God does not "make" people go to hell. My statements above show that God MADE X to have a destiny of torment, and he knew all along that he was doing it. GOD MADE PEOPLE FOR HELL.

 

An all-loving God would never create a being whose final destination was eternal torment.

 

If God doesn't "actively make people go to hell" or otherwise send them to hell, then he cannot be both all-loving and all-knowing.

 

Since the Christian god claims to satisfy [A], , and [C] simultaneously, we can confidently say, based on the above, that he does not exist.

 

 

Now, I have to finish my homework. Ciao, people.

[Guest kcdad]

Hi all...I'm new and yes I'm a christian. I've read through some threads and have been here in the past just browsing through. I can't remember how I got here. Anyways, I probably don't have anything new to present. No arguments, no other things to try to debate on as I'm sure you've all heard before. If this thread turns into a discussion, then great, I have no problem.

 

Actually I do have a question for atheists/agnostics that you've probably heard before. Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

Yes, unfortunately, that would be it. As a Christian it should have been over long before that.. forgiveness, remember? I think, according to The Bible he would have to have killed 78 of your loved ones before you could justify not forgiving him.

 

Why is it that so many westerners think justice only means getting punished for doing something. Why is it that justice doesn't come in to play until someone gets hurt?

 

(oh, by the way, it's not a crime if you don't get caught)

 

(Oh, and Jesus said: if you forgive someone their sins, then their sins are forgiven)

[Astreja]

Well hey, as I said, if the reasons stated above are your reasons (among many) for not believing, then more power to you.

 

Answer my question, please: What have you done, in the real world, to make amends to any people whom you have wronged?

[ThreeD]

Hello ThreeD,

 

I will dispense with any cordialities and cut to the chase. The Gawd you follow is a hideous cruel thug. I will lay it out in a legal manner. If you hold such a being to the same Biblical standard he theoretically holds mankind to, then he fails miserably. If you believe that every word of the Bible is "God's Word", then you must look at what he says versues what he does.

 

OK.

 

First, let's look at the beginning, before man was ever supposedly created. Lucifer fell and became satan. God banished him from heaven and he rules the earth. Dumb question, ....Why did the bible god not deal with Satan right then instead of waiting until the end of the Tribulation? Here is the more hideos part, ....If such god, supposedly knows past present and future and every minute part of the universe and supposedly holds it all together could not eliminate sin at the beginning, is he less than GOD? Is he less than all powerful?

 

Because that was His plan. From beginning to end, it about God showing His wrath and mercy. He wanted to redeem a people. He doesn't just know past, present, and future, He has planned it from the beginning.

 

What is even far far worse,...A supposedly all powerful supposdly all loving God created a frail being, Man, knowing he would fall and set him to a standard he could not keep then when he did fall condemned him to Hell, when he could prevented it before ever creating man. Based on such action, the God of the Bible was contributory to Man's fall. By not removing the event leading to the fall, there is a term for having a reasonable ability to prevent a crime and not doing so, it is called....."Contributory Negligence". Contributory Negligence is premeditated and thus criminal. God could be found guilty for man's fall.

 

He allowed man's choice to fall and enter into sin. People are always saying man has "free will" well this is what man did with his "free will". People want a God that makes life happy all the time, yet that contradicts "free will"

 

Let's look at other areas. If you look at each of the 10 commandments, you will find that in some way or another in some form, God is guilty of braking the very laws he wants man to follow. He sets a standard he himself cannot follow. The Character known as "God" found in the Bible is like a Mafia Dictator. He offers you a deal you cannot resist. He points a gun to your head and says...."Accept Christ as savior and live forever and have more than you could imagine, ...reject him and go to Hell"....dude...that is extortion.

 

Well no. He doesn't point a gun to your head with a decision. He saves who He wants to save and that's the only reason why people are saved. The only reason people accept Christ is because God has allowed them to do so by opening their eyes to their sinfulness.

 

It is based upon the observations, the God of the Bible contains all human emotions and frailties and thus, the character known as "God" was invented by man to control man. Nothing more. Furthermore, if he did exist, he is nothing more than a common cosmic thug who is abusive and sadistic.

 

Well I would agree that a system like that Cathotlic Church was made to control man. The Reformers such as Martin Luther fought against this and led people out of it by opening people's eyes. He risked his life to come against the control mechanism invented by man that you speak of. I'm not controlled by man or a church system. I don't tithe because it isn't biblical for the church so I'm not "Extorted" out of my money to keep the "system" going.

[ThreeD]

Do you believe that if someone were to commit murder or any other heinous crime, and not get caught and die without getting caught, is that just the end of it? How does that person get his just due for something society did not catch him for? Thanks.

 

If they don't get caught, that is indeed the end of it. Justice is not served according to society's dictates, though the individual's death does mean that a potentially dangerous individual has been removed from society by some means or other.

 

Independent of that: you make a lot of positive assertions about god. Is there some compelling reason why they should be regarded as anything other than your own opinion?

 

Well you're not going to like the answer lol but because of the Word of God.

[Guest kcdad]

"Because that was His plan. From beginning to end, it about God showing His wrath and mercy. He wanted to redeem a people. He doesn't just know past, present, and future, He has planned it from the beginning. "

 

He wanted to redeem a people he had even created yet?

 

It sounds like he wanted revenge for being dissed by this rebellious angel. Sounds like he created a bunch of itty bitty strawmen to knock down, beat up and set fire to... not unlike a 5 year old. He was really angry at this bad angel and instead of taking it out on him, he took it out on us clay pots that he created to be destroyed.

 

But let's say for that you are right in all that you believe.. can you tell me what is to keep another rebellion in heaven from happening when all of us wretched sinners get there with our free will? Then what? More clay pots that will be afraid of us haunting them and their children?

[ThreeD]

The thing is, you're evil. I'm evil. Man is evil. As good as we all think we may be at times, there are those times that I can attest of where I know I did someone wrong whether by stealing or straight up doing a girl wrong by cheating.

And being less than perfect therefore qualifies you to be called "Evil"? How psychologically damaging! There's no middle ground, no I'm a good person for the most part who sometimes acts badly? No grace in you? No compassion? Just hard, razor sharp absolute capital punishment for any infraction. Not even a finger cut off for taking a cookie, but full and total decapitation?

Exactly. No one is perfect and we all do some things that we are not proud of. The question is, is it okay to get away with these things? That's what Christ is for. For the simple fact that man can't be perfect, and cannot be good all the time.

So you're saying we should follow Christs example and cut your child's head off for taking a cookie and disobeying you? Since one sin makes the whole thing sin, then their need be no wise judge necessary at all! One punishment only - DEATH. Remember Achan's kids...

 

Does this sound like the Light of the World to you, or blackness of heart? I vote for blackness of heart.

The thing is, He also forgave people in the Old as well. Also let's say you did believe in a god, what would you say of that god, if he allowed you, the one who was created, to decide whether what He does is just or not? If you did beleive in a god, and he is creator of all, wouldn't you think he has the right to do things according to his purposes?

 

Man is selfish, prideful, and arrogant.

And good, and loving, and compassionate, and forgiving, and graceful, and hopeful, and giving, and, and, and..... let's keep them coming! Give it a try! It feels good. It's also true.

I would agree at times.

Ahh.... then you can't say that man's nature is EVIL! Evil is evil. There is no good in evil.

 

Sounds like you don't believe what you say you do. So why do you choose to say you do? Don't you see the cracks and fissures in your doctrines, how they don't follow your heart? So which is right? Which should you believe?

 

Man's nature is evil, but what man considers good is even as filthy rags before God.

[Antlerman]

But let's say for that you are right in all that you believe.. can you tell me what is to keep another rebellion in heaven from happening when all of us wretched sinners get there with our free will? Then what? More clay pots that will be afraid of us haunting them and their children?

Not going to happen. All freethinkers will be anhilated in the lake of fire and their stinking, freethinking genes with them! The heavenly "host" are more worker bee clone drones, "made in the image of Christ". The real reason for this earthly toil is to prepare a replacement army in hevean for the lost angels who went with Lucifer, in order for them to mount a more effective defense of the throne of God from any future attacks by some other celestial entity who threatens the Almighty, Omnipotent, Potentate (who theoretically needs no defense, except for that army in heaven of course).

 

Oh thank God for the Bible, the light of truth and reason!!

[ThreeD]

Well hey, as I said, if the reasons stated above are your reasons (among many) for not believing, then more power to you.

 

Answer my question, please: What have you done, in the real world, to make amends to any people whom you have wronged?

 

Sorry. I have apologised and asked people of their forgiveness. After that, I can't make them forgive me. Have I been able to find all the people I've wronged? No. That is why we all need grace and mercy.