Aahhh, Isn't This Just So Sweet?

[babysealclubber]

Gotta back off this thread for awhile. Too draining.

 

Me too. Interesting, but draining.

 

EDIT:

 

Ack, can't help myself. I see zionism as being a core issue. Drinking, Dancing, etc. aren't core issues from my perspective. The other core incentive for Islamic violence is Islam.

 

And when you get right down to it, the real problem is fundamentalism.

 

And the honest-to-goodness, deep-down root of the problem is Human Nature. I think I may have said everything I care to say on the subject. Thanks for the discussion.

[The-Captain]

 

Thanks Ameen, it's always good to hear peoples pertinent experiences. More relevant than any number of armchair articles IMO.

[The-Captain]

Gotta back off this thread for awhile. Too draining.

 

FWIW you made me re-evaluate some opinions and long held positions.

[Ameen]

 

Thanks Ameen, it's always good to hear peoples pertinent experiences. More relevant than any number of armchair articles IMO.

 

Thank you for the kind words! I appreciate them.

 

Unfortunately, the topic of this thread is a real part of my life, and my family from that part of the world often visits the family here in New York. I just wanted to share.

 

---

 

Point of interest: At the height of the Lebanese civil war, my relatives had to travel in bizarre ways to get from Beirut to New York and back. The most common was to drive from Beirut, Lebanon to Damascus, Syria (since Beirut airport was bombed many times), fly from Damascus to Moscow, take another plane from Moscow to Vienna, and then take a third plane from Vienna to New York.

[Vigile]

Really great post Ameen.

 

I don't want to get into politics. I really have studied the politics of the various Middle-East mandates and the creation of Israel in depth, and all I see is atrocities committed by everyone. It's like using the Bible to try to prove reality. With the right quotes, bias, and application or misapplication of logic, you can prove any side is "right."

 

And this explains precisely why these debates just make me tired. I contend there is no bias here that has the upper hand. I refuse to take sides in this issue and it angers me that my government has taken sides.

 

That said, it warmed my heart listening to Obama give his presentation as he introduced his diplomatic envoy appointments yesterday on BBC. For the first time in a long time I watched a US president refuse to take sides while acknowledging that both sides have legitimate grievances. That's a start in the right direction from a US perspective IMHO.

[Jedah]

http://www.politics.com/video/IzA1NQ3vm9M/...inian-children/

 

Not much needs to be said.

[PiracyOfTheHead]

This entire thread has opened my eyes to a number of things I never knew, or had not thought of before.

 

I dont think that anybody can claim to not be biased, we all have feelings and have all been told many different stories.

 

We all have friends, relatives, acquaintances that involve one side or the other in some way.

 

 

One thing that is being overlooked I think is INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY, everybody continues to speak of "Jews", "Muslims", "Arabs" "Palestinians", "Zionists", "Israelis".....aren't the people who do wrong "the bad guys" and the people that do right "the good guys"?

 

Aren't there people in each government that are doing right or doing wrong?

 

Aren't their people in each land that do bad or good?

 

Aren't their people in each militia or military outfit that do bad or good?

 

Aren't there people of each race, religion or political belief that do bad or good?

 

I have been friends with all of the above mentioned "types" of people. And I have also had problems likewise.

 

My step-father is of Jewish descent. His mother became best friends with an Arab Muslim for the last decade of her life.

 

I always chose to take people on an individual basis, counting their own merit as what mattered.

 

This is one of the top ten most sensitive subjects in the world and I am trying to give it the respect it deserves.

 

We can look at policy, look at laws, look at the Balfour Declaration, and everything that pertains to government and so on, we can dissect those things and make choices but it will still be based on opinions and biases, whether history is correct, whether such and such is true or skewed.

 

There is no simplistic way of viewing this and that needs to be accepted and addressed, there's simply no unraveling this gigantic mess, there are far too many knots, its like a mile long bundle of Christmas lights, and when it is finally unraveled you have to check each individual bulb, once that is figured out, one blows and the whole thing goes out and you have to search again.

 

The ONLY thing besides teaching every single person to be peaceful seems to be the question of why a nation was officially sanctioned in that part of the world, surrounded by Arabs, why didn't our leaders learn from the past??

 

Why not create another gigantic land and help all the dispersed, everywhere, even in what was to be once again called "Israel"? Why re-establish that territory??

 

It seems like a deliberate and planned catastrophe from the beginning.

 

Regardless of history, regardless of previous ownership, the fact of the matter is that people are continually conquered and dispersed, its the way life has been for all of us, IT SUCKS, and we move on because we have to not because we want to. I cant go to my old apartment and demand to live there because I was once there, even if the tenants after me were Irish and then British and then Irish and then British, its simply not my apartment any longer, there were myriad reasons that I had to leave it but that is not the fault of the management there, nor of the new tenants, nor of the neighbors.

 

Now this is purely a question, not my demand, not my solution. It is simply the one thing that sticks out in my mind that I can not grasp.

 

I can in no way learn the entire history of this situation from say, the time the Old Testament speaks of the Hebrews going in and taking the land, weren't there people there before that?? I may have my OT history messed up but didn't the land belong to others in the first place? Wasn't it taken over by the "Chosen people" because Jehovah told them to??

 

And even if I learned all there was to know, how do I know how accurate the info is, were talking thousands of years here.

 

So I would say start with post WWII, why create this situation?? THAT is what I do not understand.

 

TIA for any info or opinion on the matter.

 

P.S. -------- I MUST say again, I am asking to ask not to be rhetorical, so please do not think I have made a statement or stated an opinion.

[chefranden]

Sorry all, I started a good argument and then let meat life interfere with it. I think I'll be able to catch up this weekend.

 

Consider the following,

 

S: (n) terrorism, act of terrorism, terrorist act: (the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear)

 

"In his retrospective "Parsing Gains of Gaza War," New York Times correspondent Ethan Bronner cited this achievement as one of the most significant of the gains. Israel calculated that it would be advantageous to appear to "go crazy," causing vastly disproportionate terror, a doctrine that traces back to the 1950s. "The Palestinians in Gaza got the message on the first day," Bronner wrote, "when Israeli warplanes struck numerous targets simultaneously in the middle of a Saturday morning. Some 200 were killed instantly, shocking Hamas and indeed all of Gaza." The tactic of "going crazy" appears to have been successful, Bronner concluded: there are "limited indications that the people of Gaza felt such pain from this war that they will seek to rein in Hamas," the elected government. That is another long-standing doctrine of state terror. I don't, incidentally, recall the Times retrospective "Parsing Gains of Chechnya War," though the gains were great."

Chomsky

[chefranden]

I don't want to get into politics...

 

Ameen,

 

After reading this, I have nothing really to continue the argument. You've said it all. I'll just add that we should sanction both sides.

[Emme]

This fucking issue gives me a real headache. It's so complicated, I can't just pick a side. It's not black and white or "good" or "bad". There are so many arguments, I don't understand how it's even possible to pick a side and stick to it, without ignoring things not agreeable.

[pitchu]

Ameen,

 

Somehow I missed your post, catching it only now that I've returned to re-read, after stepping away from this thread.

 

I owe you an apology for my overweening assault on Arab men.

 

(I can only say I'm relieved that, in re-reading, I at least found myself stating that, of course, there are exceptions. -- How little to offer!! Sorry, again.)

 

It was also careless of me to fail to make distinctions between "The Arab World" and "The Islamic world" when making my points.

 

For all of this, I apologize to you.

 

I, too, have felt the anger rise and my face grow hot from the scorn of the majority around me. I was a California-born child of American South dust-bowl immigrants. I saw a woman spit at the feet of my mother upon hearing her hillbilly accent. I threw away my paper-sack lunch regularly to avoid the teasing and laughter from other kids, to whom the food my mother made for me was alien. Our poverty was reflected in every ragged thing I wore, and "Poor White Trash" was hissed at me.

 

Through the years, I've come to feel easy about that label, self-assigning it when the occasion merited the eliciting of a few gasps within conversation grown too smug.

 

When I refer to my Poor White Trash origins, I must with all honesty admit to certain strains which run strongly through my class of People: bigotry, narrow-mindedness, anti-intellectualism, fundamentalism, mistrust and suspicion of the world beyond, a propensity toward slovenliness, drunkenness, (and, of course) incest. All these were elements not only in the class, itself, but in my extended family, so I would be unreasonable to deny that they are markers of my People. Trite often arrives from truth.

 

Yet I'm completely who I am, and so I have to see, also, their doggedness in their struggle to survive drought, destitution, dislocation and revilement, my Grapes of Wrath People.

 

I suppose all this is to convey my desire that all persons be open to acknowledging the negative and damaging strains in their People, too, and to eschew ennobling.

 

Ex-Christian.net has, for my five years here, been a place where the great preponderance of opinion, re: the Middle East, demonizes Israel and ennobles Palestinians. I can't bear it. It is unbearable.

 

If all posts relative to Jews and Arabs were as measured, open-hearted, considered and humane as was yours, there would be no need, here, for a fire-breathing pitchu.

[Ameen]

Hi there, pitchu.

 

I fully understand, and I bear you no animosity and no ill will at all. I'm here to make friends, not enemies.

 

It makes me sad that you had to put up with so much while growing up. I respect your honesty and integrity, as I know it is not easy to write such painful things on a public board.

 

What can I possibly say about the way you were treated? It's a shame that most folks forget their neighbors are human beings with needs, desires, dreams, and a tremendous capacity for being deeply hurt and made to feel self-loathing when treated cruelly.

 

When people step on my sexual orientation, I become a fire-breathing Ameen! No need to apologize for your own sparks, pitchu.

 

I will never demonize the Israeli people. I will indeed enoble the Palestinian people, but as I hope I made clear I will enoble all Middle Eastern people (Israelis included) and, for that matter, all human beings. I do spend a little more time enobling Palestinians than others, though, as so many in the U.S. and (believe it or not) in the Arab World hate Palestinians. In addition, my mother is 100% Lebanese, and all her ancestors come from a small village called Wjdadeh (near Marj Uyun in southern Lebanon). But by chance she was born in Haifa and her brother in Nazareth when those cities were part of the British Mandate of Palestine. My grandfather was a doctor, and he had set up practice in Haifa. Haifa had great influence on my mother's family and traditions, and it is part of who I am even though I have never been there.

 

Take a look at my avatar and you'll see why many people think I am Jewish. I am Semitic, pure and simple, for Arabs and Jews are both Semitic. I am also proud to be Semitic. (I know this is sticky business and many disagree with me on whether Arabs and Jews are one people--but it is what I believe. I may even get a few nasty posts in relpy on this board.) As far as I am concerned, the only difference between Arabs and Middle Eastern Jews is religion and politics. I don't believe in religion, and politics is something I leave to people I don't respect.

 

Of course, I would then extend this discussion to talk about how all of humanity is the same and the labels we use (including my Semitic label) are outdated and even dangerous.

 

Back to politics... I have no respect for any government, and I demonize the American government, the Israeli government, the various Arab governments... On the other hand, I have a great love for the American people, the Israeli people, all Arab people... Who else? Mongolian people, Peruvian people, Zimbabwean people, Fijian people...

 

Although I have taught university-level English as a Second Language for 14 years, my graduate degree is in history, and I truly believe that in the Middle East as elsewhere both sides are right and both sides are wrong. O.K., this is starting to turn into poetry. Sorry. Clearly, I could never be a politician, as I'd be eaten alive in days. Or one day. Or one hour.

 

Growing up, I was rather anti-Semitic because that is what I was taught. Even in university, I championed only Arab causes and sometimes alienated Jewish classmates. I know better now, and I regret my more ignorant days. The brand of Christianity I was involved in taught absolutes, and my OCD loved black and white thinking.

 

There are both Muslim and Christian men in the Middle East and elsewhere who are forward thinking, even-handed, and not anti-Semitic. I know some personally. Also, a development I applauded six months ago... The new ambassador to the United States from Muslim Bahrain is a Jewish woman, Houda Nonoo: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7426806.stm

 

There are so many horrors in the world--and especially in the Middle East. And yet, if you look hard enough, you can find small islands of sanity. Like this board...

 

All the best,

 

Ameen

[nightflight]

......................

[PiracyOfTheHead]

I am still hoping somebody addresses my questions on page 3, I really would like to hear some opinions. There are a lot of very good problem solvers and highly educated people here.

[chefranden]

One thing that is being overlooked I think is INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY, everybody continues to speak of "Jews", "Muslims", "Arabs" "Palestinians", "Zionists", "Israelis".....aren't the people who do wrong "the bad guys" and the people that do right "the good guys"?

 

Well this was the point of the OP. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Why do the assholes of a people always seem to be in charge?

 

Aren't there people in each government that are doing right or doing wrong?

 

Aren't their people in each land that do bad or good?

 

Aren't their people in each militia or military outfit that do bad or good?

 

Aren't there people of each race, religion or political belief that do bad or good?

 

Yes to all.

 

I have been friends with all of the above mentioned "types" of people. And I have also had problems likewise.

 

My step-father is of Jewish descent. His mother became best friends with an Arab Muslim for the last decade of her life.

 

I always chose to take people on an individual basis, counting their own merit as what mattered.

 

This is fine if you can deal with with people individually, but bombing and rocketing take a collective to operate. As an American I meet really nice people everywhere in this country. You wouldn't expect any of them to sanction torture, illegal war, or genocide and yet as a collective we do/have done just that.

 

 

So I would say start with post WWII, why create this situation?? THAT is what I do not understand.

 

It proved to be the easiest option for the British. Remember the idea for the final partition of the Ottoman Empire was control/cheap access to the oil. In spite of the usual rhetoric of peace, democracy, self determination, and freedom none of this would actually be allowed. The people might decide that the oil belonged to them and sell it dearly or use themselves or just leave it in the ground. As soon as Iran elected a government Iranians did just that, and the United States & Great Britain worked to destabilize and overthrow that government and install the Shah. The existence of Israel was a convenient destabilizing influence in the region. It's existence helped the dictators and despots of our choice stay in power.

 

I think that it was Egypt's Nasser that want to form a Pan Arab Union that could better stand up to the west. We made sure that didn't happen either.

 

After the oil runs out in the middle east you won't hear about the troubles much any more, just like we hear very little about what is happening in Africa.

[Saviourmachine]

It is so good to read your posts chef and pitchu, if there were a lot of people like you, we wouldn't have wars. I am so far from this war that it is so easy to see that you have both valid points. What's left to me is what can we do? I fell in love with Karen Armstrong (a little ad: Charter for Compassion Talk) who told that that is what young people ask on both sides. I am sure a lot of people want to have this ended. How to end it?

[pitchu]

Thank you for the words of appreciation and encouragement, Saviormachine.