Any Answers?

[Neon Genesis]

I find the Bible an inspiring, and informative look at a stateless people trying to find an identity... not The History, but a history.

That's your opinion, but just because it's your opinion doesn't give you the right to go around forcing your opinion on other people and demanding we agree with you. Muslims believe their Quran is more beautiful and inspiring than the bible, but would you like it if some Muslims accused you of being a fundamentalist if you didn't agree with them? If you truly find the bible inspiring, why don't you follow the Golden Rule and do unto others? I find parts of the bible to be inspiring myself, but I don't go aground demanding everyone else to agree with what I think is inspiring because I wouldn't like it if someone did it to me. Why is it so difficult for you to do the same instead of demanding everyone agree with you?

 

I find it inspiring how this culture resisted the Hellenization and alienation of their cultural beliefs and practices and how some were willing to die to resist. The whole Kingdom of God idea as opposed to the Kingdom of Rome or Babylon or Assyria... beautiful.

How is it more inspiring for Christians to create a religious nation where they force their beliefs on everyone else than any other nation that forces people to bow down and follow them blindly? What gives Christians the right to force their beliefs on other people?

 

There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, than just truth and and reality. When you get complete control of truth and reality, you let me know.

I love how you tell us we don't have control of truth and reality but then you turn around and tell us what truth and reality are to you. What, are you God or something?

 

The Bible is a JEWISH History... written by and for Jewish people.

Good for them, but we're not Jewish, so stop demanding that we should find something that you claim wasn't for us to begin with to be beautiful if we don't want to.

[florduh]

I hate it when I am the only one in a conversation that seems to have critical thinking skills.

 

Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us and correcting us when we err, kcdad.

 

Most of us have never read the Bible, or even thought about it much. We have discussed these subjects for quite some time, all the while not having a clue as to what we were talking about. Under your instruction and enlightenment, perhaps we can learn to be rude, arrogant, and insufferable pricks as well.

[Guest kcdad]

I hate it when I am the only one in a conversation that seems to have critical thinking skills.

 

Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us and correcting us when we err, kcdad.

 

Most of us have never read the Bible, or even thought about it much. We have discussed these subjects for quite some time, all the while not having a clue as to what we were talking about. Under your instruction and enlightenment, perhaps we can learn to be rude, arrogant, and insufferable pricks as well.

 

I am not insufferable!

 

I have observed that most conversations on these boards never get below the traditional interpretation of The Bible and Church doctrine. Sweeping generalities about The Bible are pointless because as you well know, it is 99 books... (or 89, or 79 or 69 depending on how you want to count them). To speak of The Gospels or The Gospel as if there were only 4, or only one (depending upon your meaning), is also pointless and so ethnocentrically (sp?) blind that I want to throw my shoe.

 

I am sorry for my anger towards you, your questions and statements just seem so puerile and shallow it pisses me off. I expect more from people who claim to have come to some great intellectual and spiritual decision. It isn't because you are an "ex", I feel even greater anger towards "believers" who teach and preach the same level of intellectual pablum.

 

Yes, I suppose I am arrogant and rude and a prick. I have devoted about 40 years to understanding human beings, their beliefs, their knowledge and their communication... My particular area of interest is society, and the reciprocity practiced by the individuals in it and society itself. Religion is just one aspect of that mutual creative activity.

[Vigile]

I am sorry for my anger towards you, your questions and statements just seem so puerile and shallow it pisses me off. I expect more from people who claim to have come to some great intellectual and spiritual decision. It isn't because you are an "ex", I feel even greater anger towards "believers" who teach and preach the same level of intellectual pablum.

 

To be fair, you don't need a degree in theology to soundly deconvert. Personally I have very little interest in the bible. That doesn't mean I don't have solid, thoughtful or intellectual reasons for deconverting. The bible has been parsed like no other book yet the truth is there isn't much profound about it other than the fact that a relatively old and large religion claims to use it as their source of truth.

 

IOW, I've read the bible many times. I in no way claim to be a biblical scholar. Finally, I see the field of serious bible study to be one of equal importance with the study of the Iliad. It has historical merit but is not necessary for deconversion with intellectual honesty.

 

Yes, I suppose I am arrogant and rude and a prick. I

 

Don't worry about it. I've been accused of the same and I'm sure it's well deserved. You think for yourself so you're all right by me.

[florduh]

I have devoted about 40 years to understanding human beings

 

 

You have wasted your time.

[The-Captain]

There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, than just truth and and reality. When you get complete control of truth and reality, you let me know.

 

My only problem with it is that many take it as such. And sure so the OT is the Jewish national myth, great, I just don't like people idealizing the genocide, authoritarianism etc. and trying to transplant those values into today. So I think to an extent we do need to devalue the Bible.

[Neon Genesis]

I am not insufferable!

 

I have observed that most conversations on these boards never get below the traditional interpretation of The Bible and Church doctrine. Sweeping generalities about The Bible are pointless because as you well know, it is 99 books... (or 89, or 79 or 69 depending on how you want to count them). To speak of The Gospels or The Gospel as if there were only 4, or only one (depending upon your meaning), is also pointless and so ethnocentrically (sp?) blind that I want to throw my shoe.

 

I am sorry for my anger towards you, your questions and statements just seem so puerile and shallow it pisses me off. I expect more from people who claim to have come to some great intellectual and spiritual decision. It isn't because you are an "ex", I feel even greater anger towards "believers" who teach and preach the same level of intellectual pablum.

 

Yes, I suppose I am arrogant and rude and a prick. I have devoted about 40 years to understanding human beings, their beliefs, their knowledge and their communication... My particular area of interest is society, and the reciprocity practiced by the individuals in it and society itself. Religion is just one aspect of that mutual creative activity.

But how do you define "sweeping generalities" about the bible? There's over 35,000 denominations of Christianity in existence all with widely different interpretations of the bible. That's not even counting Jewish and Muslim interpretations of Jesus' teachings. Were you there when the biblical authors wrote the scriptures? Have you asked the authors specifically what they meant when they wrote it? If you didn't, then you don't know what the authors meant when they wrote the scriptures anymore than anyone else does. Unless you have some evidence that you personally met the authors and know the one true way to Christianity, then you're also guilty of making sweeping generalities and have no right to talk. The point is you don't know the truth either and religion is all just a big cosmic guessing game.

[Ouroboros]

I have observed that most conversations on these boards never get below the traditional interpretation of The Bible and Church doctrine. Sweeping generalities about The Bible are pointless because as you well know, it is 99 books... (or 89, or 79 or 69 depending on how you want to count them).

I thought it was 66? At least that's what I remember from my studies.

[Deva]

I have observed that most conversations on these boards never get below the traditional interpretation of The Bible and Church doctrine....

I expect more from people who claim to have come to some great intellectual and spiritual decision. It isn't because you are an "ex", I feel even greater anger towards "believers" who teach and preach the same level of intellectual pablum.

 

If the overall level of intellectual discourse here is below your expectations, maybe it would be better if you found something more suitable elsewhere. I don't see where it says on this site that all members must be intellectual heavyweights. No one twisted your arm to come on here and make your contributions and observations.

[Ouroboros]

And yet they survived... Can you say the same about the cultures that settled America from Asia? Can you say the same for the Angles or Celts? Can you say the same for the Romans? The Mongols? The Mayans? Their faith in their History is UNIQUE. BTW... EVERYONE has been conquered at one time or another. There are no undefeated societies.

My understanding is that the Jews aren't "pure-bred" any more than other cultural races. The Anglos survived as Englishman. Right? Isn't the Irish offspring of the Celts? The Romans is pretty much a big chunk of European population. Our laws are considered to be rooted in the Roman system. However many laws are different today. Things change, so no culture is exactly the same as the one they came from. The Jewish culture and religion isn't the exact same as the one in 1 CE. At least that's what I thought. They're reading pretty much the same Torah, but that can be said about Hindus, Buddhists, and even Zoroastrians as well. So I'm not sure if your point is really valid. The Jews are not as unique as you try to paint them. What about the natives in America? The Indians try to keep their heritage, but Christianity invades them and shove a new religion down their throat, and yet there are still a few around who managed to survive the cultural oppression. Is it a miracle? Nah. Just random chance. Sometimes it happens, because statistically, it should or could happen sometime.

 

So the few Zoroastrians who managed to keep their faith intact and their holy scriptures unchanged, for as long, or perhaps longer, than the Jews, they are out of the picture as UNIQUE because... ... ... why?

[Guest kcdad]

And yet they survived... Can you say the same about the cultures that settled America from Asia? Can you say the same for the Angles or Celts? Can you say the same for the Romans? The Mongols? The Mayans? Their faith in their History is UNIQUE. BTW... EVERYONE has been conquered at one time or another. There are no undefeated societies.

My understanding is that the Jews aren't "pure-bred" any more than other cultural races. The Anglos survived as Englishman. Right? Isn't the Irish offspring of the Celts? The Romans is pretty much a big chunk of European population. Our laws are considered to be rooted in the Roman system. However many laws are different today. Things change, so no culture is exactly the same as the one they came from. The Jewish culture and religion isn't the exact same as the one in 1 CE. At least that's what I thought. They're reading pretty much the same Torah, but that can be said about Hindus, Buddhists, and even Zoroastrians as well. So I'm not sure if your point is really valid. The Jews are not as unique as you try to paint them. What about the natives in America? The Indians try to keep their heritage, but Christianity invades them and shove a new religion down their throat, and yet there are still a few around who managed to survive the cultural oppression. Is it a miracle? Nah. Just random chance. Sometimes it happens, because statistically, it should or could happen sometime.

 

So the few Zoroastrians who managed to keep their faith intact and their holy scriptures unchanged, for as long, or perhaps longer, than the Jews, they are out of the picture as UNIQUE because... ... ... why?

 

Angles came from Germany... the English are a mixed bag of Norse, French Danes and Germans... mostly Germans.

The Irish are Celts Gales and Picts (like the Scottish and Welsh), as well English (see above).

Our laws are rooted in English common law. Our government is based on Roman and Native America governmental bodies.

 

Who said anything about miracles? Why are you clouding the coffee with that powdered artificial creamer?

 

The Native Americans who have maintained their culture in the face of The New Roman Empire are to be commended... where are they? Yes, there are independent nations of Native Americans, but they are very much economically assimilated and pluralistically integrated into greater American society.

[Ouroboros]

Angles came from Germany... the English are a mixed bag of Norse, French Danes and Germans... mostly Germans.

Mostly Germans, came from Angles, well, they have their roots in Angles, so Angles didn't disappear, just changed, and mixed.

 

So are the Jews of today pure-blooded? Nope. I'm certain they have DNA from other "races" too.

 

The Irish are Celts Gales and Picts (like the Scottish and Welsh), as well English (see above).

So Celts didn't disappear.

 

Our laws are rooted in English common law.

Oops. Yes, you're right.

 

Our government is based on Roman and Native America governmental bodies.

So part of the Roman heritage didn't disappear? So does Israel have the same constitution and religious laws it had 2,500 years ago? Nope. So even there, no difference between the Jews and anyone else.

 

\

Who said anything about miracles? Why are you clouding the coffee with that powdered artificial creamer?

Yup. With pixie dust.

 

The Native Americans who have maintained their culture in the face of The New Roman Empire are to be commended... where are they? Yes, there are independent nations of Native Americans, but they are very much economically assimilated and pluralistically integrated into greater American society.

But they still hang around, and many still practice their old religion. Same does the Zoroastrians.

 

The conclusion then is: Israel and Jews are no more different or UNIQUE than many other "races", traditions, or religions.

[The-Captain]

Goes back even further than that.

 

Most of the Germanic peoples came from Scandinavia in the beginning. So Franks, Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Goths, and all the others that became the various French, German and English peoples were part of a mass migration lasting around a century. They moved into areas that had been inhabited by the Gallic and Celtic peoples that had been displaced by Rome. Celts weren't actually native to the Isles, if I remember right. Tribes like the Picts and Iceni had been there a lot longer, Celts mostly moved there to get away from Romans. Then much later you had the Norman invasion (Nor-man=Northman they were originally Vikings that settled in France).

 

In a way this is relevant to the prior discussion, people groups are rarely as simple as they look. The notion of the Jews as a radically separate group is largely fiction, reinforced by the religious desire to see it that way.

[Guest kcdad]

But they still hang around, and many still practice their old religion. Same does the Zoroastrians.

 

The conclusion then is: Israel and Jews are no more different or UNIQUE than many other "races", traditions, or religions.

 

MANY? You want to back that up with something other than a claim? Most Native Americans I encounter are Christian, and few worship the old gods, except for the tourists.

I have no problem with the Zoroastrians... they worship the same God. How many? 10,000 in the world, maybe.

[Guest kcdad]

In a way this is relevant to the prior discussion, people groups are rarely as simple as they look. The notion of the Jews as a radically separate group is largely fiction, reinforced by the religious desire to see it that way.

 

The Jews are different because they base their identity on History... true or false, it is based on their history. That's why one does not have to be religious to be a Jew. That's why they identify with The Nation of Israel, even though the Nation of Israel disappeared about 2700 years ago never to return.

[agnosticator]

The atheist response to tragedy "it happened because of the way I lived my life", is really a christian belief about morality being christian based. The atheist is believed to be immoral or lacking the ability to do what is decent because he is without religion. So, this really is not the opposite viewpoint.

Atheists may buy into this christian belief because our society shoves it down our throats from infancy to the grave. Blaming their lack of faith for tragedy directed at them is all too christian.

 

Even as an atheist one can still say that it was their lifestyle that lead to their problems. Let's say I were a chronic alcoholic all of my life and then my liver began to fail; my previous actions may very well have resulted in my liver issues.

 

It wasn't a tragedy that caused me to question a god--in fact, I don't even know exactly what--I think it was the culmination of the tiny notches that eventually lead to me seeing religion as false.

 

I haven't been following this thread....

 

I see your point OpheliaG. I was thinking of the quote"it happened because of the way I lived my life" as referring to living life as a non-believing, non-praying, non-churchgoing person. Everything this person does is seen by christians as morally decadent. Some nonbelievers I know buy into the christian moral superiority belief.

[agnosticator]

Hi Hawklord61,

 

It seems to me that anyone who decides either way without an honest examination of the bible, hasn't much of a leg to stand on for or against christianity. If and when another tragedy or bad experience happens, they can flip the other way. Emotions and disappointments aren't enough to effect a permanent change.

 

Instead, the bible showed me it was a godless collection of writings from arrogant, senile men.

 

 

You go a long way from thoughtful study to "godless collection"...

 

I don't have any issue with someone rejecting The Bible as "Word of God" etc... however, to dismiss their experiences as "arrogance and senility" is rather egocentric and arrogant on your part... don' t you think?

 

I think your issue is with the editors, compilers, and commentators, not the authors... but that is for you to resolve.

 

 

It doesn't matter to me who really wrote them. The words are there, and they convey thoughts and ideas which many times are arrogant, cynical and deluded. It is a far cry from representing a loving god, unless one edits out the inhumane parts. Have you not read them, honestly?

[Ouroboros]

MANY? You want to back that up with something other than a claim? Most Native Americans I encounter are Christian, and few worship the old gods, except for the tourists.

I have no problem with the Zoroastrians... they worship the same God. How many? 10,000 in the world, maybe.

But... but... that doesn't make Jews UNIQUE as you said they were. Everyone is unique, and no one is unique. There's nothing more special with the Jews. That was my point. You made a claim they somehow held a higher uniqueness than anyone and everyone else, but I don't see they do, since we only need to find one other religion where they practice the old traditions or have other cultural inheritance today. Take the Hindus, Buddhists, or the few Indians who are left practicing the old traditions. Sure, many of them are Christian, but isn't most Jews secular, and some Christian too, so what is the big difference that makes you claim Jews are unique by any standards?

 

Lets go back to the post that started our little dialogue:

And yet they survived... Can you say the same about the cultures that settled America from Asia? Can you say the same for the Angles or Celts? Can you say the same for the Romans? The Mongols? The Mayans? Their faith in their History is UNIQUE. BTW... EVERYONE has been conquered at one time or another. There are no undefeated societies.

 

I hate it when I am the only one in a conversation that seems to have critical thinking skills.

My critique is that everyone's religion is unique. Every country's history is unique. Every culture is unique. Every "race" is unique. I am unique. You are unique. That makes us all unique in our own sense, and hence we all are equal in being unique. There's nothing extra special with double cheese and extra large fries coming to rescue only because one groups "unique" history is of only just one favorite religious one. What about India? They were occupied by England, where they not? Lets see... they got rid of the occupation through a very unique method... they're unique in history too. Or lets take my home country, Sweden, have had the longest lasting peace in the world, and was the first country to declare itself as Lutheran and throw out the Catholics (many hundred years ago). I mean, it's a bit of a stretch to claim one particular group as more unique than others, when everyone got their own odd story.

[Ouroboros]

The Jews are different because they base their identity on History... true or false, it is based on their history. That's why one does not have to be religious to be a Jew. That's why they identify with The Nation of Israel, even though the Nation of Israel disappeared about 2700 years ago never to return.

Okay. Maybe I'm starting to see what you're saying. The Jewish people is unique because they are a people which was sticking together, even without a country, just like the Gypsy (Romany)... wait... Yeah, what about the Gypsy? Are they a people without a country, and unique in their own sense? What makes them to be a unity of what they are? My understanding strong family traditions is one of the components. Another is a common language, and history. I'm not sure about the religion, but I think it's some form of Christian, but maybe not. Anyway, should we say they are not unique, because only the Jewish people is, or are they just as unique?

 

Maybe the issue here is more that there are certain traits and attributes which are unique for the Jewish people, and other traits unique for each and every other culture. Right?

 

 

(On a side note: Statistics on Native American Religion was 145,363 in 2004. It change +119% from 1990 to 2000. From this site: http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html

I don't know how reliable it is, but for sure it's not that all Indians are Christian.)

[ShadowWolf]

I went through the pains of life, had a mentally abusive mom, lost my dog who was my closest friend, as I've had very few actual friends, my parents divorced, I was a very devoted "super" Christian (even got a plaque with my name on it at the last church I went to for my contributions, volunteer work, and being very knowledgeable of the Bible.). And all the while, God wouldn't even drive the devil out of me so I wouldn't be transsexual.

 

History and real science classes is what made me realize the folly of my twisted faith. Learning about how Christianity had caused alot of war, destruction, and death, nearly caused the lose of all pre-Christian history, and that evolution was nothing like what the church taught got me thinking pretty hard about things.

 

But today, I am damn proud to say I went from one of Christianities best and brightest, into the type of sinner that just the thought of made me cringe.

[ShadowWolf]

Forgot to add. Had I not been such an overzealous Christian prick/borderline Southern Baptist, I probably wouldn't have had such a faith crisis. I would probably still be Christian, but not to the point where Harry Potter books were best used as fire kindling.

[The-Captain]

In a way this is relevant to the prior discussion, people groups are rarely as simple as they look. The notion of the Jews as a radically separate group is largely fiction, reinforced by the religious desire to see it that way.

 

The Jews are different because they base their identity on History... true or false, it is based on their history. That's why one does not have to be religious to be a Jew. That's why they identify with The Nation of Israel, even though the Nation of Israel disappeared about 2700 years ago never to return.

 

Fair enough, and that is a fine way to look at it. Just a little used to hearing the evangelical line on Israel and how bloody special they are and assumed that's where this was headed.

 

You haven't read the book, the Gifts of the Jews, by any chance have you?

[Guest kcdad]

In a way this is relevant to the prior discussion, people groups are rarely as simple as they look. The notion of the Jews as a radically separate group is largely fiction, reinforced by the religious desire to see it that way.

 

The Jews are different because they base their identity on History... true or false, it is based on their history. That's why one does not have to be religious to be a Jew. That's why they identify with The Nation of Israel, even though the Nation of Israel disappeared about 2700 years ago never to return.

 

Fair enough, and that is a fine way to look at it. Just a little used to hearing the evangelical line on Israel and how bloody special they are and assumed that's where this was headed.

 

You haven't read the book, the Gifts of the Jews, by any chance have you?

 

NO i haven't. Can you summarize it?

[Guest kcdad]

 

Jewish history is religion. You can call Judaism a doxic religion all you want, but can not separate it from their history as a people and/or nation. Christians have no such history. They have no such nation or state (although the fundies are trying to turn The United States into one.)

Religion, especially in the case of Jews is not about a particular set of beliefs about some deity. It is a socially constructed understanding of the sacred and the profane.

 

What makes The Roma (as they prefer to be called) different is that they are an genealogical group exclusively, originating in Persia or Northern India, that has attempted to assimilate into other cultures as they encounter them, but have been universally rejected in every society they encounter. They are a sub culture that one does not enter except through marriage or birth, one does not "join" them. However, they are actually a good comparison to The Jewish peoples on many levels.

 

 

A for that native American religion stat: did you see the figures: (47,000 103,000 145,363) That's more than 300% growth in 15 years???????? All of these stats are ugly and ill conceived.

 

This is a badly designed survey, using different methodologies in 1990 and 2001 and then comparing the results... nonsense. Of course the final numbers are projections, (guesses) based on the faulty change in data from 1990 to 2001. You are comparing apples and oranges and coming up with a picture of a banana.

 

If you want the real clincher to the quality of this data, look at the number of agnostics and atheists... DIMINISHING???? NOT LIKELY!

[Ouroboros]

Jewish history is religion. You can call Judaism a doxic religion all you want, but can not separate it from their history as a people and/or nation. Christians have no such history. They have no such nation or state (although the fundies are trying to turn The United States into one.)

Religion, especially in the case of Jews is not about a particular set of beliefs about some deity. It is a socially constructed understanding of the sacred and the profane.

Right. So it makes Judaism one of a kind, but not more special than any one else, since every religion, every culture, and every society got a unique background and history to why they exists. Just because Judaism is the only religious-history based culture, doesn't make them better than anyone else. Agreed?

 

A for that native American religion stat: did you see the figures: (47,000 103,000 145,363) That's more than 300% growth in 15 years???????? All of these stats are ugly and ill conceived.

Very true. But the point is: it is not NONE. It is not like every Indian is Christian, or do you believe that they completely made up the numbers and lied? It's possible, but it's also possible they didn't have good enough consensus. But also, another explanation could be (it's not impossible) that many secularized or Christian Indians turned back to their old religion. And just because the numbers could be somewhat wrong, it doesn't mean that every Indian is Christian as you alluded to. I was making the argument that Indians have a unique religious background, and you claimed every Indian you had met was Christian, so here it is, the truth is, regardless if the exact numbers are correct, not every Indian is a Christian. Btw, you can tell that the early numbers are estimates and not exact, since it's extremely rare that the consensus would end up in exact thousands. Right?

 

This is a badly designed survey, using different methodologies in 1990 and 2001 and then comparing the results... nonsense. Of course the final numbers are projections, (guesses) based on the faulty change in data from 1990 to 2001. You are comparing apples and oranges and coming up with a picture of a banana.

Well, my point really didn't have anything with the increase, or the exact numbers, or method, or trying to prove how amazing the Indians are to have so many believers etc, but rather that you were hinting that there were no believers of the Indian religion in existence anymore. You didn't say it right out, but that was what one of your earlier statements hinted to. So here it is, even if the numbers are estimates, and even if the increase is based on re-converting Indians, they are not ALL Christians.

 

If you want the real clincher to the quality of this data, look at the number of agnostics and atheists... DIMINISHING???? NOT LIKELY!

Up to that year it is quite possible, but I suspect the trend has changed the last 10 years. But as far as I remember, the trend used to be the other way. It goes in waves, and it's beside the point anyway. We're not discussing the nickles and dimes of the statistics, and we're not here to account for every bean in the jar, but the argument was that only the Jews are UNIQUE, and I disagree, every religion got a unique story to tell.