Moral Decay

[PaulQ]

Why should I believe in the golden rule? Obviously I don't want people stealing from me, that would be a wrong done to the most important person in the universe, me.

 

You're correct; the golden rule is not one to live by. There are things you might want others to do to you that they wouldn't want done to them. That's why I base my moral compass on a set of principles.

 

The secular threat of being ass raped by Bubba is enough to control that. That and I don't have a desire to kill anyone with an axe, except my enemies, and I am restrained from doing so by the aforementioned secular threat of going to prison and being ass raped by Bubba. In fact fear of being ass raped by Bubba is a stronger motivator than fear of hell, hence why I masturbated all the time (even when I felt horribly guilty about it) when I was a Christian but never killed anyone.

 

Quite often, those enemies who have treated us so badly in this life as to make us wish to kill them tend to live miserable existences, often haunted by their own past. To kill them would give them the peace they will never have in life; so why not let them live in the hell they made on earth?

 

Fear based obedience is still where I'm at actually. It's just fear of secular consequences as opposed to metaphysical ones. But if I were hypothetically able to be beyond the secular consequences, for example if I had superpowers or a privileged position that made me above the law, I would have nothing to fear.

 

Yes you would. You would fear yourself. Ultimately, you would realize that everything you did, the actions you took in your life were a result of how you were conditioned by those you hated the most. They would have turned you into this monster. Ultimately, we all die, and odds are good that those who treated you badly aren't looking forward to old age anyway; so at the end of the day, the nothings are still nothings, but you will have become that which you hate. You honestly think that would be a good thing?

 

For example, if you were taken into a room, and presented with a button, and told in a way in which you could 100% know that the speaker was being truthful, that you would be rewarded for pressing that button with let's say, enough money to never have to work again and a ray beam you could point at the members of your preferred sex and make them instantly attracted to you, but 1000 children would die, none of whom you know or are known by anyone you know, and no one will ever find out, would you do it? I would.

 

Which would mean you would have become that which you hate.

 

Ever heard of school? As in before you're an adult school? That your parents and society force you to go to and spend time with people who you can't just walk away from?

 

Been there, done that, made me feel good after my 18th birthday to have the power to take control of my life.

 

Or how about a job that feels the only job that will take you, and your coworkers are a bunch of jackasses that treat you just as bad as the kids in middle school did.

 

There are labour laws, and human rights laws. My guess is you do not know your rights, which is unfortunate. I suggest you find out exactly what your rights are. I know for certain that if a co-worker treated me as badly as some kids in middle school treated me, and my employer allowed that to continue, they'd be facing a lawsuit that would probably bankrupt them and set me up for the rest of my life.

 

I've been in both those situations.

 

Which further confirms my opinion that you are oblivious to your rights, which likely stems from the preachings of Christianity that you should be a lamb.

 

Or ineffectively TRY to defend yourself and THEN get punished for it.

 

Clearly, you do not understand your rights. There are tools available to you. If you knew your rights, then you would be able to effectively defend yourself and make those who cross you rue the day they met you. Especially when they're working to pay you off.

 

Really? Did I have "control over my own life" when I was a child? Did I have "control over my own life" when I was a sperm cell and an egg cell combining genetics to make me who I am, in comination with all the experiences I had as a child that made me who I am? No.

 

No, but by the age of 18 (or sooner in some jurisdictions), you did have control. You indicated you're past 25, so you're clearly in complete control now; whether you wish to admit it or not.

 

Material possessions can be converted into pleasure. For example, a video game. By playing it I experience pleasure. Or more directly, one can buy pleasure by going to, for example, a strip club.

 

The only pleasure you derive from those things is the pleasure they advertise you should feel. I personally get absolutely no pleasure from going to a strip club; I find it demeaning to my own sensibilities, though I don't fault those who choose to go. As fun as video games are, I find real life much more interesting; so video games have become nothing more than a diversion for me.

 

You continue to allow yourself to be a slave to the system. You want to buy what they're selling. The only hope for you is to find a way to rise above it all; only then will you truly find contentment.

[Vigile]

Why should I believe in the golden rule? Obviously I don't want people stealing from me, that would be a wrong done to the most important person in the universe, me.

 

I recognise that this is a "wrong" and "evil" view. It doesn't stop me from feeling it.

 

Wrong or evil are just words. Most people, however, feel an emotion called human empathy. While motivated by self interest, they also recognize that others may feel, have loved ones who care about them and who care about others. The recognition of this fact causes people to actually care about the well being of not only themselves but of others too. Those without this emotion are considered sociopathic. I personally don't think you are sociopathic. I just think you are asking the hard questions of yourself and trying to see where you ultimately come down on these issues.

[Guest Marty]

I'm still not convinced you're real, but you say some things that appear to come from my own thoughts so I'm having trouble deciding what side of the fence to be on with you. But I have never met anyone with such a negative and hopeless worldview. In many ways, reading these 2 threads have made me feel a bit better about myself, because I previously thought I was the most negative, hopeless person on the planet.

 

You need to have a professional help you. You most likely need some medication to help balance you out, and you also need quite a bit of deprogramming. Please, get some help...

[florduh]

"For example, if you were taken into a room, and presented with a button, and told in a way in which you could 100% know that the speaker was being truthful, that you would be rewarded for pressing that button with let's say, enough money to never have to work again and a ray beam you could point at the members of your preferred sex and make them instantly attracted to you, but 1000 children would die, none of whom you know or are known by anyone you know, and no one will ever find out, would you do it? I would."

 

 

Okay, kill a thousand children so you can get laid and not have to work. This is either a put on, or the whiniest little jerk on the planet. If the above quote doesn't scream "sociopath" I don't know what does.

 

"Life is so terrible. I have to work to pay my bills. I just want to beat off and not work." It's like the six year old child who doesn't get that new bike, or is told he can't take toys away from his classmates. "I didn't ask to be born!!! Waaahhhhh!!!"

 

Grow up, see a psychiatrist, or stop putting us on, whichever is appropriate.

[Deva]

There are a very few people in the world who I would feel bad about hurting, even if I were to get ahead. Family and close friends. Most people, however, I view as expendable.

 

Even the people I love the most, if the temptation offered was high enough, for example is an evil supernatural being offered me eternal youth or mind control powers, but only if I were to sacrifice them, I would feel bad about it but the temptation of power would be too great.

 

I hate that about myself but know it is true.

 

Assuming you are genuine and are being straight with us --

 

It seems like on some level you know the damage this view of the world is doing to you, since you say you "hate that about myself". You seem to have a very low to nonexistent level of empathy for others. I hope you get the help you need to be able to better live with yourself and the world around you.

 

I also suggest some one-on-one counseling, since just writing on a web site is probably not going to be enough.

[Amethyst]

Get some professional help. Really.

 

I tend to agree.

 

Plus I think you can choose to be "moral" or not. If you find yourself doing things you hate yourself for then I would guess that you have some repressive issues. Professional help is advised.

 

I tend to agree as well.

 

Also, it depends on what you define as moral. Are you seriously considering harming people? Are you actually harming people? Are you seriously considering harming yourself, or have you actually harmed yourself? Are you actually committing crimes or seriously considering committing them? If any of the above apply to you, you need professional help, and you need to get it as soon as possible. Please.

 

Are you actually drinking alcohol when your church condemned it? Are you listening to rock music when your church condemned it? Are you reading Harry Potter when your church condemned it? Are you wearing normal clothing when your church had special clothes or uniforms you had to wear? Are you watching TV/movies your church condemned because they were not religious-based programming? Have you done your hair in a style your church condemned or gotten piercings or tattoos when your church condemned that? Those things are not necessarily immoral behavior because they do not HARM someone (unless of course, you are getting drunk repeatedly, and/or going out and driving drunk).

 

As for sex, certain things the church considers "immoral" or "evil", are part of normal human sexual behavior. IMO, as long as it is consenting, who gives a crap? The church has long had issues with human sexual behavior, almost as if the writers of the Bible were OCD about it.

 

IMO, the most important thing to consider in morality is: does what I am doing harm me, or anyone else in some way? If the answer is yes, you might want to reconsider your actions and/or find another way to do whatever you were doing.

 

Therapy does help, seriously. I highly recommend it. Web sites can only do so much.

[The-Captain]

Sociopath? I dunno, I see more of a self indulgent whiner trying to sound like a comic book villain for kicks. Bloody waste of time is what it is.

[REBOOT]

"For example, if you were taken into a room, and presented with a button, and told in a way in which you could 100% know that the speaker was being truthful, that you would be rewarded for pressing that button with let's say, enough money to never have to work again and a ray beam you could point at the members of your preferred sex and make them instantly attracted to you, but 1000 children would die, none of whom you know or are known by anyone you know, and no one will ever find out, would you do it? I would."

 

 

Okay, kill a thousand children so you can get laid and not have to work. This is either a put on, or the whiniest little jerk on the planet. If the above quote doesn't scream "sociopath" I don't know what does.

 

"Life is so terrible. I have to work to pay my bills. I just want to beat off and not work." It's like the six year old child who doesn't get that new bike, or is told he can't take toys away from his classmates. "I didn't ask to be born!!! Waaahhhhh!!!"

 

Grow up, see a psychiatrist, or stop putting us on, whichever is appropriate.

 

Exactly my line of thought !

 

This guy is obviously a plant from some christian site, testing the morality of ex-christians

[DarthXaos]

True, you can do that once or twice, but if you do it three times, four times, n-times, the chances of you being discovered increases probably exponentially. Your risk gets higher and higher and you're playing with your life.

 

That's why I don't actually do it. Not because I'm moral, but because I'm a coward.

 

Basically, you don't value your future (potential) life enough to avoid the risks. Friends and family will find out sooner or later. If you steal from them, they might not notice the first time, but the second or third time they'll get suspicious, and then not much later they will have evidence and confront you, and you have ruined your relationship with them.

 

Like I said, even if I could get away with it, I WOULDN'T do it to friends and family. They, unlike most of humanity, actually mean something to me.

 

It's your life. You are in control of it. And it's your responsibility to make your life the way you want it to be. If you ruin it, don't blame someone else, but blame yourself for not caring for your own welfare. No one will make you successful. No one will make you happy. Only you can do it. And whatever you do now, you will pay for one way or another later in life.

 

This whole concept, I disagree with. In fact it was coming to reject the concept of personal responsibility that was one of the keys in my loss of faith, because it led to seeing God as someone who judges people for things they aren't responsible for.

 

Because who we are is pre-determined. I didn't choose to have this personality. I didn't choose to feel the way I do. I didn't choose my genes. I didn't choose the early childhood experiences that shaped me. All this was determined at the big bang, when the interaction of physical forces determined how everything would play out. Perhaps if one atom had gone a half a degree in a different direction, my mind would have been formed as the most altruistic person in history.

 

That's why I base my moral compass on a set of principles.

 

I have principles too. But when its easier to compromise them, I tend to always do so.

 

Quite often, those enemies who have treated us so badly in this life as to make us wish to kill them tend to live miserable existences, often haunted by their own past. To kill them would give them the peace they will never have in life; so why not let them live in the hell they made on earth?

 

I think many of them are living perfectly happy lives. That's why if I had the power, I would actually target their loved ones. See, losing a loved one is the worst pain one can feel emotionally. I have felt it. Therefore, it makes sense to me to inflict that on those that have earned my hatred. I understand intellectually my hatred is irrational. That doesn't stop me from feeling it. And since I have no power, these thoughts remain in my fantasies instead of actually coming out.

 

Now If I was ever given power, like say being made leader of a country or something, unfortunately (fortunately, for the rest of humanity) I don't have the charisma for that.

 

But I still fantasize about sending my secret police to seize my enemies and visit unspeakable horrors on them until they submit to MY will. MY kingdom come. MY will be done.

 

Yes you would. You would fear yourself. Ultimately, you would realize that everything you did, the actions you took in your life were a result of how you were conditioned by those you hated the most. They would have turned you into this monster. Ultimately, we all die, and odds are good that those who treated you badly aren't looking forward to old age anyway; so at the end of the day, the nothings are still nothings, but you will have become that which you hate. You honestly think that would be a good thing?

 

Possibly. But with power I could drown myself in enough pleasure to numb the guilt.

 

Been there, done that, made me feel good after my 18th birthday to have the power to take control of my life.

 

But by then you had already become the person you were destined to be. Long before then, pretty much most of who you are is determined before age 2.

[DarthXaos]

There are labour laws, and human rights laws. My guess is you do not know your rights, which is unfortunate. I suggest you find out exactly what your rights are. I know for certain that if a co-worker treated me as badly as some kids in middle school treated me, and my employer allowed that to continue, they'd be facing a lawsuit that would probably bankrupt them and set me up for the rest of my life.

 

That job has already ended. But the damage has been done.

 

But here's the issue. Your view is very idealistic. But in practice it works just like middle school. It's your word against theirs, and there's more of them.

 

No, but by the age of 18 (or sooner in some jurisdictions), you did have control. You indicated you're past 25, so you're clearly in complete control now; whether you wish to admit it or not.

 

But who I am had already been determined. I am simply a slave to my programming. I'm just the character, in fact in the storyline of the universe I am an uncredited extra. I merely act out the actions that have been scripted for me since the Big Bang.

 

The only pleasure you derive from those things is the pleasure they advertise you should feel. I personally get absolutely no pleasure from going to a strip club; I find it demeaning to my own sensibilities, though I don't fault those who choose to go.

 

No one had to advertise me to convince me that an attractive female rubbing against me through a thin layer of clothing is pleasurable. The fact that I have to change my pants after I come home is evidence the pleasure is quite real.

 

Wrong or evil are just words. Most people, however, feel an emotion called human empathy. While motivated by self interest, they also recognize that others may feel, have loved ones who care about them and who care about others. The recognition of this fact causes people to actually care about the well being of not only themselves but of others too. Those without this emotion are considered sociopathic. I personally don't think you are sociopathic. I just think you are asking the hard questions of yourself and trying to see where you ultimately come down on these issues.

 

I do have this emotion, but I feel it much less intensely than I feel my own pleasure or pain. I also am more likely to feel it for people who actually matter to me than for some random stranger.

 

"I didn't ask to be born!!! Waaahhhhh!!!"

 

Well I DIDN'T.

[DarthXaos]

I tend to agree as well.

 

Also, it depends on what you define as moral. Are you seriously considering harming people? Are you actually harming people?

 

No. Only fantasizing about it, like I've done all my life.

 

Are you seriously considering harming yourself, or have you actually harmed yourself?

 

I do plan to commit suicide, but not in the near future. I have to wait at least until after my mom dies, so I don't destroy her with the thought of me going to Hell, because she's not strong enough to handle that, not after losing my dad.

 

So it's probably going to be another few decades before I end my pain.

 

Are you actually committing crimes or seriously considering committing them?

 

Depends what you mean by crimes. Speeding? Downloading music?

 

If you mean real crimes than no. Again, way too cowardly and afraid of the consequences of getting caught. Not willing to risk being ass raped by Bubba, in fact I would rather DIE than be violated that way.

 

IMO, the most important thing to consider in morality is: does what I am doing harm me, or anyone else in some way? If the answer is yes, you might want to reconsider your actions and/or find another way to do whatever you were doing.

 

I do do plenty of things that bring me short term pleasure at a long term detriment. I'm an instant gratification kind of guy.

 

Therapy does help, seriously. I highly recommend it. Web sites can only do so much.

 

Well, If I knew where to go, and could afford it.

 

Sometimes you just need to vent your emotions. I normally don't do a lot of posting on forums, I prefer to lurk most of the time. But sometimes I just hit points where the despair overwhelms me and I wonder if there's anyone who can understand the way I feel.

 

Most people don't. They, maybe rightly, feel superior.

 

I see more of a self indulgent whiner

 

Maybe I am. I can't help the way I feel, even if it is best qualified as wangst.

 

Are you actually committing crimes or seriously considering committing them?

 

Depends what you mean by crimes. Speeding? Downloading music?

 

If you mean real crimes than no. Again, way too cowardly and afraid of the consequences of getting caught. Not willing to risk being ass raped by Bubba, in fact I would rather DIE than be violated that way.

 

IMO, the most important thing to consider in morality is: does what I am doing harm me, or anyone else in some way? If the answer is yes, you might want to reconsider your actions and/or find another way to do whatever you were doing.

 

I do do plenty of things that bring me short term pleasure at a long term detriment. I'm an instant gratification kind of guy.

 

Therapy does help, seriously. I highly recommend it. Web sites can only do so much.

 

Well, If I knew where to go, and could afford it.

 

Sometimes you just need to vent your emotions. I normally don't do a lot of posting on forums, I prefer to lurk most of the time. But sometimes I just hit points where the despair overwhelms me and I wonder if there's anyone who can understand the way I feel.

 

Most people don't. They, maybe rightly, feel superior.

 

I see more of a self indulgent whiner

 

Maybe I am. I can't help the way I feel, even if it is best qualified as wangst.

[Guest Marty]

You know, I just re-read everything you wrote in this post again, and although I relate to some of your "thoughts", I don't think you are real. I say this now with almost 100% certainty now because everything you have said has come straight out of the church's rule book on what happens to people when they leave the faith. You are what I was told will happen to me if I lose faith. So my thinking now is that you are a covert xtian testing our morals, or you are a highly suggestive person that believes everything anyone ever tells you with out thinking or feeling for yourself.

 

As I see it nearly impossible to be that gullible at an age of over 25 as you claim, I have to say you are a impostor. Goodbye!

[PaulQ]

This whole concept, I disagree with. In fact it was coming to reject the concept of personal responsibility that was one of the keys in my loss of faith, because it led to seeing God as someone who judges people for things they aren't responsible for.

 

Because who we are is pre-determined. I didn't choose to have this personality. I didn't choose to feel the way I do. I didn't choose my genes. I didn't choose the early childhood experiences that shaped me. All this was determined at the big bang, when the interaction of physical forces determined how everything would play out. Perhaps if one atom had gone a half a degree in a different direction, my mind would have been formed as the most altruistic person in history.

 

This, much like Christianity, is a belief with no actual basis in scientific fact. Also, like Christianity, it is wrong. Who we are is not pre-determined; consider studies of identical twins who have identical genes, identical upbringings, but go on to live two completely different lives. They do so because they choose to live lives different from each other; because they recognized that their lives were not pre-determined. That we alone determine our fates.

 

I've always told people that, if they don't have a plan for their lives, someone else will do it for them, but only to the benefit of the person with a plan. It's your choice to allow the negative experiences in your life help to shape you into the thing you hate, or to use them to shape you into someone that refuses to become the thing you hate. To stand up against that which you hate.

 

I think many of them are living perfectly happy lives. That's why if I had the power, I would actually target their loved ones. See, losing a loved one is the worst pain one can feel emotionally. I have felt it. Therefore, it makes sense to me to inflict that on those that have earned my hatred. I understand intellectually my hatred is irrational. That doesn't stop me from feeling it. And since I have no power, these thoughts remain in my fantasies instead of actually coming out.

 

As you have already demonstrated, much of what you think is completely out to lunch and out of touch with reality. Without ever trying to develop a personal relationship with an enemy at some level, you never recognize the fact that what you see as a perfectly happy life is a facade. You believe what they want you to believe. They still manipulate you to believe their distorted, twisted version of reality. Ergo, they keep you under their control.

 

Possibly. But with power I could drown myself in enough pleasure to numb the guilt.

 

At some point, pleasure becomes nothing more than a numb sensation, and you recognize there is no escape.

 

Been there, done that, made me feel good after my 18th birthday to have the power to take control of my life.

 

But by then you had already become the person you were destined to be. Long before then, pretty much most of who you are is determined before age 2.

 

Au contraire; once again, you demonstrate that what you think to be true is, in fact, not. When I was 18, I dropped out of school, got a job, and lived on my own; eking out a living with whatever job I could get. I withdrew into myself. I barely got my high school diploma, and could barely afford to pay my rent. Over the next three years, I became very introspective. I started to explore who and what I was; and who and what I wanted to be. I realized that the life I was living was the life that those I hated and loathed wanted me to live. I took back control. At 21, I got a student loan, went back to College, and graduated with honours. At 24, I married the woman I wanted to marry. I also gave up smoking. In 3 years, I transformed myself into a completely different person. I sit here today, more than a dozen years later, and the person I am today has changed even more substantially than who I was at 24. By 30, I had already changed careers from that which I went back to school for to one which paid substantially more; and today, I've set myself up for yet another career change. I adapt and change the plans for my life, in part according to the changes in the world around us, and in part according to the changes within myself.

 

I, and I alone, determine what I am going to become. Oh, there are still people in my life who try to take that control away, but of course they cannot. I've had to destroy relationships for my own greater good; but in the process, I have earned a respect I never had before.

 

That job has already ended. But the damage has been done.

 

But here's the issue. Your view is very idealistic. But in practice it works just like middle school. It's your word against theirs, and there's more of them.

 

We live in a modern age, where collecting evidence has become exceptionally easy. My cheap MP3 player can record the things others say to me. A cheap digicam can perform video surveillance. Learn how to give people the rope they need to hang themselves, and they almost certainly always will. Our justice system still favours evidence over hearsay, and the rewards can be substantial.

 

Your problem is that you only react; you still cannot comprehend the development of a plan and carrying it out, all because of your incorrect beliefs that you are a player in a storyline. In fact, you're simply allowing others to write the story for you by your inaction.

 

I do do plenty of things that bring me short term pleasure at a long term detriment. I'm an instant gratification kind of guy.

 

The fact that you comprehend this demonstrates that you possess the understanding necessary to make your life better, once you get beyond your incorrect beliefs. It also further demonstrates that you choose to be that which you are, and know full well you're making this choice.

[Amethyst]

Well, If I knew where to go, and could afford it.

 

If you are seriously considering killing yourself, as you said earlier, they will help you. Not to mention, hospitals in the United States are REQUIRED to care for people, even if they do not have insurance.

 

Many therapists offer a sliding fee scale, or will take on people pro-bono if they are seriously in need. You have to call around and ask. The Yellow Pages in your area and Google are as good a place to start as any.

 

There are also some web sites that do online and over the phone counseling. I have no idea if they are as effective as face to face, but they may be cheaper.

 

http://www.onlinepsychotherapy.com/

 

http://www.liveadvice.com/

 

I see more of a self indulgent whiner

 

This quote was NOT from me. However, you seem to have latched onto it since you quoted it twice in the same post. Any reason why?

 

No. Only fantasizing about it, like I've done all my life.

 

This is a sign you need serious professional help.

 

I do plan to commit suicide, but not in the near future. I have to wait at least until after my mom dies, so I don't destroy her with the thought of me going to Hell, because she's not strong enough to handle that, not after losing my dad.

 

So it's probably going to be another few decades before I end my pain.

 

Planning for suicide, even at some distant date, is also indicative that you need professional help.

 

Do yourself a favor and get it. Again, they will treat people who are impoverished. Tell them your financial situation.

 

http://www.probonocounseling.org/

 

There may be something like this in your state. You have to do the research. I have no idea what state you live in.

[Ouroboros]

DarthXaos,

 

I'm starting to understand that your problem isn't depression, but rather a compulsive obsession about death and suicide. This is a very serious problem, and dangerous for both you and the people around you.

 

This is my advice: Seek professional help immediately! Don't stop for anything, but go to a specialist of some kind and get treatment. You are a danger to yourself, and it could possibly escalate to danger to others too. When you read this: pick up the phone book, find a doctor of some kind, call them. Immediately!

[RankStranger]

I don't think Darth here is all that unreasonable. I think some of his premises are oversimplified, and I think he's still viewing life through the lens of 'christian morality'.

 

In fact, he reminds me of me when I was younger. Even now I don't disagree with him entirely, though I've found reasons (even if the reason is simply my own entertainment at times) to NOT be such a self-centered dick... at least as our society would define it.

 

I still believe that we are all self-centered dicks... some are more conscious of it than others. Some are in denial. Some are more direct; some are more destructive.

 

Some are subtle and patient... and therein lies my own construct of 'morality'. I find that when I fully consider the consequences and implications of my actions, those actions that I think are in my own best interest often coincide with a conventional notion of 'morality'. That doesn't mean that I really believe in it... but it's a useful model to apply to most situations.

 

IMO, morality is mostly (if not entirely) self-centered. Any altruistic basis for morality that I've ever come across (religious or otherwise), is either circular or arbitrary as far as I can tell.

 

But that's no reason to discard it entirely. An idea doesn't have to be 100% true and internally consistent to be useful.

 

 

 

Fear based obedience is still where I'm at actually. It's just fear of secular consequences as opposed to metaphysical ones. But if I were hypothetically able to be beyond the secular consequences, for example if I had superpowers or a privileged position that made me above the law, I would have nothing to fear.

 

For example, if you were taken into a room, and presented with a button, and told in a way in which you could 100% know that the speaker was being truthful, that you would be rewarded for pressing that button with let's say, enough money to never have to work again and a ray beam you could point at the members of your preferred sex and make them instantly attracted to you, but 1000 children would die, none of whom you know or are known by anyone you know, and no one will ever find out, would you do it? I would.

 

There are a very few people in the world who I would feel bad about hurting, even if I were to get ahead. Family and close friends. Most people, however, I view as expendable.

 

Even the people I love the most, if the temptation offered was high enough, for example is an evil supernatural being offered me eternal youth or mind control powers, but only if I were to sacrifice them, I would feel bad about it but the temptation of power would be too great.

 

I hate that about myself but know it is true.

 

I don't know that I'd approach these hypothetical situations much differently. Thing about scenarios like this is that they're hypothetical. Actions without consequences DO NOT EXIST. So IMO, your answers to these questions don't mean a whole lot.

 

Any action that you would take is just as hypothetical and nonexistent as the situations you've described.

 

I find that the only reason to act morally is a fear of the consequences... meaning that there isn't much keeping me restrained from doing something unethical if I can get away with it and it will benefit me.

 

I think this is a bit oversimplified... but I don't think you're any different than most people in this respect. I think that consequences are more than enough reason to behave in a way that some might describe as 'moral'. I'm not just talking about FEAR of consequences (though that simplified and extreme case is definitely something to keep in mind). I'm talking about a broader 'consideration' of consequences.

 

I went through a phase when I was younger when I'd lie more often than not. It was rooted partly in the fact that I was pretty damn dissatisfied with who I was. But I learned that while a lie may not directly hurt me or anybody else... it requires A LOT more energy to maintain those interesting and useful lies than it does to just tell the truth in the first place. And even though I'm a damn good liar most of the time, it's too often my immediate reaction to tell the truth if somebody asks me a question that I haven't had time to think over (which may expose previous lies). So based on consequences (including but certainly not limited to punishment), I've become pretty damn honest... A LOT more honest than most people I encounter daily, from what I can tell. That's not to say that I don't lie- I'll happily and effectively tell a lie if I have a good reason to do it... but without a compelling reason to lie, the truth is almost always easier and more effective for me.

 

I have done a lot of thinking about it. The conclusion I have come to that it the reason not to steal is to avoid going to jail. Also I would not steal from someone I care about because it would make them feel bad. But if I was 100% guaranteed to not get caught, I would steal from someone I didn't care about, because it would make my life better, and the pain of someone who is irrelevant to me is outweighed by that.

 

Again, this is a hypothetical situation. There's no such thing as a 100% guarantee of ANYTHING. Given that scenario, I might do the same as you... but what does it matter? That scenario doesn't exist.

 

And even if it did, there are other things to consider.

 

Personally, I don't have a huge moral problem with theft. I don't steal from individuals, though. That's just a nasty thing to do. Maybe it's just that I don't want people to think that I'm a huge dick... maybe my only reason is that I care to some extent what other people think. Even though I wouldn't have realized or admitted it when I was younger, I know from experience that such nasty behavior will affect how I view myself. It's enough of a reason for me to avoid doing particularly nasty things... may not be enough for some, but it works for me.

 

If I was capable of changing my inward views at will I would have stayed Christian and not gone through the horribly painful process of deconversion.

 

I wouldn't suggest that you actively try to change your views... but I would suggest that you broaden your perspective. In other words, you seem vaguely dissatisfied with your current outlook on life, and there's a reason you're presenting it here. I think you're looking for other ideas and perspectives.

 

You'd do well to read up on some basic philosophies to see how others have approached such questions. Right now you're a pretty good fit for Nihilism... but Existentialism isn't a HUGE leap from there- and lots of people find that philosophy quite compelling. Absurdism is sort of a middle ground between the two, and fits pretty closely with how I see things.

 

And there's no reason to limit yourself to western perspectives. If you'll do some reading on Buddhism or Tao or even primitive tribal societies, then you'll find that there are more ways to approach this 'morality' than you've likely imagined. It doesn't have to be about these western notions of "right" and "wrong".

 

 

See in my view people aren't equal. I am the most important, followed by close family and friends, followed by distant family and friends, followed by people i like, followed by the masses, followed by my enemies (those that have wronged me).

 

I really don't see anything particularly wrong with this. I think it's a pretty natural way to prioritize other people.

 

 

Why should I believe in the golden rule? Obviously I don't want people stealing from me, that would be a wrong done to the most important person in the universe, me.

 

I don't necessarily 'believe' in it... I just use it as a convenient model for interaction with people. There are exceptions where the 'golden rule' breaks down... others where it's inconvenient and I don't bother to adhere to it.

 

Evil.

 

I recognise that this is a "wrong" and "evil" view. It doesn't stop me from feeling it.

 

Let's add a few others: right, wrong, good, evil, liar, honorable, despicable, coward, self-indulgent whiner

 

Depending on the perspective you're coming from, any of these labels could describe me pretty well. But description isn't the most common use of these labels- their purpose is influence and social control. And the applicability of these labels is almost totally dependent on one's perspective- they can often be reversed depending on how you look at a situation.

 

So these sort of labels don't mean a whole hell of a lot to me.

 

 

 

Ever heard of school? As in before you're an adult school? That your parents and society force you to go to and spend time with people who you can't just walk away from?

 

Or how about a job that feels the only job that will take you, and your coworkers are a bunch of jackasses that treat you just as bad as the kids in middle school did.

 

I've been in both those situations.

 

,,,Or ineffectively TRY to defend yourself and THEN get punished for it.

 

I've been in those situations. One thing that I'd like you to consider is that there really is FREEDOM in your suicidal, nihilistic state. I was suicidal about 17 years ago, and had a worldview similar to yours. At one point I realized that if I was contemplating suicide... then why the hell was I worried about consequences of ANY sort?

 

I won't bore you with chest-beating about how I stood up for myself... but i will say this: Once you're able to ACT (whether out of courage or despair), you might find that you have a lot more control over any given situation than you ever realized.

[♦ nivek ♦]

DarthX...

 

This obviously isn't the forum set for you.

 

You seek no answers. You desire no counsel. Rebuff advise. Kill initiative. Bitch about life as it is dealt you.

 

Everyone has problems to deal with. You are not unique in having issues and headaches to work out.

 

Problem as I see it? Spending far too much time complaining about *problems* and none at all seeking answers that might help.

 

Can't see what ExC holds for you when you continually find objections for any and all solutions offered up.

Life sucks, and then we die. Is up to us to make what we have better for ourselves. Get to that tasking. Only other option is to quit trying and in turn stop living.

 

<self edited>

 

Your choice.

 

kFL

[noob]

But who I am had already been determined. I am simply a slave to my programming. I'm just the character, in fact in the storyline of the universe I am an uncredited extra. I merely act out the actions that have been scripted for me since the Big Bang.

 

Bullshit!!!!

[Amethyst]

DarthXaos,

 

I'm starting to understand that your problem isn't depression, but rather a compulsive obsession about death and suicide. This is a very serious problem, and dangerous for both you and the people around you.

 

This is my advice: Seek professional help immediately! Don't stop for anything, but go to a specialist of some kind and get treatment. You are a danger to yourself, and it could possibly escalate to danger to others too. When you read this: pick up the phone book, find a doctor of some kind, call them. Immediately!

 

Yes, I agree.

 

Hospitals are required to treat people even if they cannot pay. At the very least, go check yourself into one.

 

That is, if you are indeed being honest with us about your mental state.

 

Please do yourself a favor ASAP.

[RankStranger]

DarthX...

 

<self edited>

 

 

You do that a lot lately. Why advertise it?

 

 

But who I am had already been determined. I am simply a slave to my programming. I'm just the character, in fact in the storyline of the universe I am an uncredited extra. I merely act out the actions that have been scripted for me since the Big Bang.

 

You seem like a pretty smart guy, Darth... and I can understand why you'd see things this way. This is usually referred to as Determinism. Lots of people take this view- lots of influential scientists and philosophers have for hundreds of years. But I don't know that it's necessarily the case.

 

There are quite a few valid criticisms for determinism... a few of which I stumbled across in physics and differential equations classes that I've taken. If you look at ideas like bifurcation theory, chaos theory, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, and quantum mechanics... you'll see that there are very real reasons to doubt the concept of determinism. Wikipedia lays out a pretty good summary of these criticisms and several others.

 

I guess I should say that while my view of morality has been similar to yours in the past (and in some cases still isn't all that different), I've learned enough over the past decade or so that I can just begin to grasp how little I actually know... and how uncertain our grasp of reality really is. For me, that makes room to forgo not only that hard & fast rules of religious morality... but also the hard & fast "logical conclusions" of determinism and nihilism.

 

And falling in love with my wife 9 years ago... that helped, too.

[jdog]

name='DarthXaos' date='Jan 11 2009, 01:06 AM' post='423077' I do plan to commit suicide, but not in the near future. I have to wait at least until after my mom dies, so I don't destroy her with the thought of me going to Hell, because she's not strong enough to handle that, not after losing my dad.

 

So it's probably going to be another few decades before I end my pain.

 

Ahh that is so nice of you to care about your mom like that. However what makes you think your mom is going to live that long? A few decades? What happen if she dies suddenly next week of unforseen causes. Then what? Will you end your pain then? Your 'plan' has a few flaws in it.

I really don't think you have a problem other than winding everyone up.

[Vigile]

I guess I should say that while my view of morality has been similar to yours in the past (and in some cases still isn't all that different), I've learned enough over the past decade or so that I can just begin to grasp how little I actually know... and how uncertain our grasp of reality really is. For me, that makes room to forgo not only that hard & fast rules of religious morality... but also the hard & fast "logical conclusions" of determinism and nihilism.

 

Just wanted to highlight this so that Darth or anyone else doesn't miss it.

 

I also agree with Isk here. I don't know why this guy is getting everyone's hackles up. He seems like an intelligent guy asking reasonable questions. He's probably just being more honest with himself and with others than some find comfortable.

[The-Captain]

I also agree with Isk here. I don't know why this guy is getting everyone's hackles up. He seems like an intelligent guy asking reasonable questions. He's probably just being more honest with himself and with others than some find comfortable.

 

Right... because we all know in the back of our head that we would sacrifice our loved ones to an immortal superbeing in a heartbeat (and also consider this scenario often) but just aren't honest enough with ourselves to admit it.

[nightflight]

Darth, think you gots the existential angst- look at this guy: http://www.everythingispointless.com/

 

But I say embrace your nihilism. Explore it. Tear down all that you have believed and maybe you will find something wonderful. C'mon, let's face it; what we have been fed has been........underwhelming.

[Vigile]

I also agree with Isk here. I don't know why this guy is getting everyone's hackles up. He seems like an intelligent guy asking reasonable questions. He's probably just being more honest with himself and with others than some find comfortable.

 

Right... because we all know in the back of our head that we would sacrifice our loved ones to an immortal superbeing in a heartbeat (and also consider this scenario often) but just aren't honest enough with ourselves to admit it.

 

The guy is just yanking your chain because he is getting a reaction. I suspect he's young. As far as his questions about morality they seem reasonable for the most part if perhaps a bit immature. Ignore his teenage hyperbole and read what he is really saying.

 

If he really does sit around thinking of these wild scenarios, what of it? He's not hurting anyone and there is no harm in thought crimes. He has not in any way shown that he is dangerous anymore than developers of violent video games are dangerous.