End Time Events

[Pandora Moon]

But even then, its pretty hard to pull myself away from what I've lived for. I have to start again.. from scratch. What am I meant to live for?

For you.

 

I agree just do what makes you happy GM

[GypsyMoon]

But even then, its pretty hard to pull myself away from what I've lived for. I have to start again.. from scratch. What am I meant to live for?

For you.

 

I agree just do what makes you happy GM

 

 

THANKS! I think I've settled this topic in my mind ONCE AND FOR ALL!

[mwc]

At this stage the "marriage of the lamb" occurs, and, btw, mwc, according to my pastor, the sacrifice of a lamb in the Old Testament forshadowed Christ's death on the cross. Therefore that type is carried over to Revelation, where the lamb typifies Christ. So then Christ marries the church. After this there is a period where the gospel is carried out for the very last time. During this time there is a "womb" of 144,000 virgins, whom by the Holy Spirit concieve a son each. When they give birth the bride is taken out into the wilderness and there she remains for the 3.5 years.

Alright. The marriage of the lamb.

 

Revelation 5:5 And one of the rulers said to me, Do not be sad: see, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome, and has power to undo the book and its seven stamps.

 

Genesis 49:9 "Judah is a lion's whelp; From the prey, my son, you have gone up. He couches, he lies down as a lion, And as a lion, who dares rouse him up?

The lion represents Judah.

 

Revelation 5:6 And I saw in the middle of the high seat and of the four beasts, and in the middle of the rulers, a Lamb in his place, which seemed as if it had been put to death, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

 

Zechariah 4:10 For who has had a poor opinion of the day of small things? for they will be glad when they see the weighted measuring-line in the hand of Zerubbabel. Then he said in answer to me, These seven lights are the eyes of the Lord which go quickly up and down through all the earth.

The lamb appears.

 

Does "in his place" mean the lamb is in his proper place or that it replaced whatever was previously occupying that spot?

 

7 And he came and took it out of the right hand of him who was seated on the high seat.

The lamb takes the book out of the right hand of the one who was seated on the throne. So did they switch places? The lamb seemed to be on the throne in the last section but now he is taking the book from who is on the throne. He can't be taking it from himself.

 

This lamb is very much like the one in Isaiah:

Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.

Yet another reference to the nation of the Jews and not a single entity. Just like the lion. The lion and the lamb are the same. They are Judea.

 

So what about the bride then?

Revelation 21:9 And one of the seven angels who had the seven vessels in which were the seven last punishments, came and said to me, Come here, and see the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he took me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and let me see the holy town Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

There she comes. It's the "holy town Jerusalem." Not the church. The lamb is going to marry a town.

 

Those 144,000 virgins? They come in two different redactions.

The first portion comes from here:

Revelation 6:9 And when the fifth stamp was undone, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been put to death for the word of God, and for the witness which they kept. 10 And they gave a great cry, saying, How long will it be, O Ruler, holy and true, before you take your place as judge and give punishment for our blood to those on the earth? 11 And there was given to every one a white robe, and they were ordered to take their rest for a little time, till the number was complete of the other servants, their brothers, who would be put to death, even as they had been.

Notice the last part where they get a little white robe and are told to wait until their number is completed. This first group of martyrs is still incomplete (verse 9, the word for "witness," "marturian," is where we get our word for "martyr" so these aren't just simple "witnesses but much more...just keep in mind this isn't our word martyr so it doesn't mean to be put to death for a cause we simply get our word from this one but it is a very strong sense of witness as in to prove rather than to assert and can have a sense of suffering along with it however other portions of the text will reveal what these people are about).

 

Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the mark of the living God: [...] 3 till we have put a mark on the servants of our God.

In these two verses (I omitted some obviously) we see that "god" starts marking people first. Written here as "servents" the word is "doulos" or more literally "slave." "God" starts putting his mark on his slaves. His slaves are martyrs.

 

So continuing:

7:4 And there came to my ears the number of those who had the mark on their brows, a hundred and forty-four thousand, who were marked out of every tribe of the people of Israel.

And then he lists 12,000 from each tribe. The placement of the mark is telling. In the given time period to mark a person on the forehead was where a particularly brutal master would mark a slave or a slave that was simply uncooperative would be marked (via a tattoo). This was usually a last resort (unless the master was a tyrant). Assuming "god" is a decent master the author is saying the 144,000 slaves are not particularly good servants and are deserving this horrible treatment by their master. They have been chosen to die for his cause. Brutal. There must be an upside.

 

Revelation 7:13 And one of the rulers made answer, saying to me, These who have on white robes, who are they, and where did they come from? 14 And I said to him, My lord, you have knowledge. And he said to me, These are they who came through the great testing, and their robes have been washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 This is why they are before the high seat of God; and they are his servants day and night in his house: and he who is seated on the high seat will be a tent over them. 16 They will never be in need of food or drink: and they will never again be troubled by the burning heat of the sun: 17 For the Lamb who is on the high seat will be their keeper and their guide to fountains of living water: and God will make glad their eyes for ever.

And this is the payoff. The white robes represent their righteousness. They are given top honors in the court of "god" for their sacrifice. They need nothing and get the best job. Notice the lamb is suddenly on the throne at the very end. He jumps around a lot (depending on who's doing the writing...sometimes the author(s) refrain from mentioning the word "god" and other times they have no problems with it...it's very inconsistent).

 

Part one of the 144,000 is completed. Now on to part two.

Revelation 14:1 And I saw the Lamb on the mountain of Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, marked on their brows with his name and the name of his Father.

The lamb and the 144,000 suddenly appear on Mount Zion but the 144,000 have two names on their heads. Neither name is given to us. The lamb is addressed more like a person in this section though.

 

14:2 And a voice from heaven came to my ears, like the sound of great waters, and the sound of loud thunder: and the voice which came to me was like the sound of players, playing on instruments of music. 3 And they made as it seemed a new song before the high seat, and before the four beasts and the rulers: and no man might have knowledge of the song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, even those from the earth whom God has made his for a price. 4 These are they who have not made themselves unclean with women; for they are virgins. These are they who go after the Lamb wherever he goes. These were taken from among men to be the first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth there was no false word, for they are untouched by evil.

Now we find out that these 144,000 are virgins and so on. "God" made his for a price. What is this "price?" Who did it get paid to? What you see is these were the "first fruits" and that means they were a sacrifice. They were the "price."

 

14:13 And a voice from heaven came to my ears, saying, Put in writing, There is a blessing on the dead who from now on come to their end in the Lord: yes, says the Spirit, that they may have rest from their troubles; for their works go with them.

Here's the topper. After those first martyr's we're told that future martyr's will also be blessed. The "spirit" here is "pneuma" which is like a "breath of life" or "soul" and not the "Holy Spirit" (though that is implied). The "spirit" is agreeing with the statement that martyrs are blessed and adding that their "works" (that of the self-sacrifice) will go with them beyond the grave. Basically, it's telling them to put their minds at ease because all they're doing in the current war (I'll get to this) will be remember after their deaths. Good stuff.

 

And that's basically it for the 144,000. They don't do anything more.

 

The idea of the martyr wasn't because of some occasional persecutions but because this story is entirely about the 1st Jewish-Roman War. That's basically it. These people are all about sectarian violence and fighting Romans (when they weren't killing one another). The "jesus" thing evolved over time.

 

As for the Second Coming, which you claimed was not mentioned in Revelation, Jesus came to earth once, and died. Down this end he is to return, this time to take vengance. Therefore "The Second Coming of Christ".

For me to consider this I'd have to consider a "First Coming." I don't and neither does the author(s) of Revelation. Nowhere in the text is there mentioned a second coming. It simply isn't there. You're reading this in. You're doing a lot of work to deceive and scare yourself.

 

But maybe I'm confused. A "first coming" of sorts is mentioned:

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies will be in the open street of the great town, which in the spirit is named Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was put to death on the cross.

The problem is the "great town" is where the Whore of Babylon is and the "holy town" is Jerusalem (the bride of the lamb). My memory could be faulty but I'm pretty sure that this cross incident did not happen in Rome (or, if you don't accept Rome, even though it is, at least not Jerusalem). There is no point where the Whore is in the holy town. Ever. Must be someone else or the stories are confused and since, according to below, the source is impeccable I'm not sure what to think.

 

However, I'll go ahead and finish this since it's fairly short:

20:4 And I saw high seats, and they were seated on them, and the right of judging was given to them: and I saw the souls of those who were put to death for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and those who did not give worship to the beast, or to his image, and had not his mark on their brows or on their hands; and they were living and ruling with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life again till the thousand years were ended. This is the first coming back from the dead. 6 Happy and holy is he who has a part in this first coming: over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will be ruling with him a thousand years.

Here we have those who were martyr's for jesus, and the "word of god," and those who didn't worship the "beast" (there are a couple) and didn't get marked by it and they lived and ruled with "Christ" for 1000 years. Why Christ and not "jesus?" He knows "jesus." He doesn't say "Jesus Christ" either. The concept of "Christ" is Jewish and not problematic. The idea of a resurrection is Jewish and not problematic. The concept of a long-standing earthly kingdom is Jewish and not problematic. The two names are never equated in the vision. Why is that?

 

Even at the end of the book we only have confusion:

Revelation 22:16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give witness to you of these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star.

Jesus sent his angel to witness of these things. Did "jesus" sit down and pen this part himself? How odd he'd write the final summary and curse portion but send an unknown angel to say the rest. Also, there isn't a single angel giving "John" information during the vision unless "John" is the angel which then brings up the question of what defines an angel.

 

22:20 He who gives witness to these things says, Truly, I come quickly. Even so come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with the saints. So be it.

So who says "I come quickly?" Jesus? The angel? "John?" If "jesus" then is he asking himself to also come? Why is that? If it's not "jesus" then who cares if they're coming quickly?

 

mwc

[ixolite]

the Second Coming of Jesus.

 

One of the first Christians waiting for the return of Jesus:

 

 

 

 

2000 years later:

 

[Ouroboros]

He's looking in a pretty good shape for being 2,000 years old.

[Guest Princess Bitch]

GM hon,

 

I know where you're coming from. It took me many years to get over fear of hell. I left Christianity and thought I was done with it, only to feel drawn back to it, even after getting involved in paganism pretty heavily. It was easy to get drwan back toward it whenever I actually met a Christian who was nice to me and accepted me for who I am. But one thing I could never bring myself to do any longer after awhile, and that was believe that Jesus was really god incarnate and that he would send some to hell for not being his friend. There are so many contradictions, as you said, even with liberal Christianity.

 

It will take time hon, but you will heal from it as I did. I am now five years into it and made what I am pretty sure was my last little toe-dip back into Christianity a few months ago. Every time I do its because some Christian treats me nicely and with respect, and every time I do it doesn't take long for a reality check -- that most Christians don't really want to accept you unconditionally, they want to change you. Well, I'm sorry but I'm not going to change for anyone.

 

It will get better. It takes time, but it will get better. The more it all sinks in the more you realize how much Christian doctrine doesn't make any sense and the less fear of it all you will have. And if you're anything like me you might try a dozen different religions before you realize you just don't know and don't really care.

[Snafutopia]

If it's ok, I'd like to add a personal comment. One thing I read that had a profound impact on my life as an ex-Christian was "Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church" by Gary Demar.

 

It was the first time in my entire life I'd ever heard of preterism, and it was like a breath of fresh air, coming as I did from a rural Southern fundamentalist/evangelical Baptist church which claims to "take the Bible literally" -- I say breath of fresh air because, compared to the preterist view of "end time events" the Baptists quite obviously do not take the Bible literally. You can make use of the preterist view of eschatology to counter the claims of the Baptists and anybody else who says they take the Bible literally.

 

Preterists are Christians, who believe that all the stuff about "the last days" and "the end times" and "end of the world" etc. was about a local matter -- in the "world" of Judea when it was part of the Roman Empire -- and concerned the Jews and Jewish converts to Christianity.

 

And the preterists can "back up" their claims with -- yep! -- the Bible itself.

 

Well, I'm lousy at explaining things, but basically, I recommend reading preterist literature, beginning with Demar's "Last Days Madness" as a sort of intro, and then exploring various preterist websites. The preterist view totally demolishes Baptist and other doomsday cults, and serves as a bridge to the wider world of freethought -- it's a small, but logical, and amazing step from preterism to the realization that Christianity is a crock.

[Snafutopia]

My point is that if all this is going to happen, then I have reason to be scared about it.

 

And I'll be honest that I am.

 

 

{{hugs}} I totally can sympathize.

[Snafutopia]

Ever heard of the Creative and Redemptive Week? That's the stuff I'm mixed up in.

 

I've never heard of that. Truly it's sad, the fear mongering that goes on. My heartfelt belief is, they do it because they're afraid, too. They've been taught by fearful people, who have been taught by other fearful people, and so on back down the line.

 

One thing that the preterist literature points out is the use (by Jesus and others in the New Testament) of the word "soon". If Jesus really said what is he alleged to have said (by the writers claiming to quote him), then it's obvious he believed (or was trying to convince his victims) he would "return in clouds of glory" during the actual lifetime of the "twelve disciples."

 

Scholarly research proves that the word "soon" and other words and phrases in this context mean just what they say -- "soon" means "soon". Period. Which means, Jesus was either wrong, or else he was willfully lying about it. Same goes for Saul/Paul and whoever wrote "the Revelation" -- they were either wrong, or else they were willfully lying about it.

 

As far as the "prophecies" of Revelation, a study of the history of that region in that time period makes it clear that they weren't "prophecies" at all -- they were predictions, just like predicting the weather or the outcome of political campaigns or whatever -- living during those times, and being aware of the situation, the political tensions building explosively between the Jews and the Romans, anybody who couldn't "see it coming" had to have been either ignorant or stupid.

 

IMO as usual.

 

And no offense to either the Jews or the Romans

[Snafutopia]

if it is true, then why shouldn't I beleive it?

 

One last comment then I gotta go. Am looking forward to really reading the rest of your post here about the Creative/Redemtive week thingy, and so many other fascinating threads posts here at this amazing website!

 

Ok, about belief. IMO it's not a choice. It's not a decision, something you decide to do or not. Read up on "the psychology of belief formation" and you'll see what I mean. Belief is something that either your brain does or doesn't do. Some brains are able to believe certain things sometimes, and sometimes they're not. Other brains are able to believe other things.

 

Well, I'm not explaining this very well, and maybe I'm wrong (wont' be the first time! lol) but this is basically my understanding of belief and how it works. It's something that happens to you, or it doesn't. It varies from person to person, and varies at different times in a person's life. About all sorts of things. Like Santa Claus. Or low-calorie donuts

 

You might want to believe something -- really, really want to believe it -- but unless your brain is able to believe it, no amount of wanting is going to matter. Same goes for wanting to not believe something -- unless your brain is able to not believe it, well you get the idea.

 

Like I said, maybe I'm wrong. But this is how it seems to me. I didn't choose to believe in God, and I didn't choose to disbelieve -- it just happened.

[Snafutopia]

most Christians don't really want to accept you unconditionally, they want to change you.

 

Exactly! {{hugs}}

[Alice]

Hi GM,

 

I well remember all the feelings that accompanied end times teaching and how scary it could be. My parents had in their turn had the firghtners put on them by Hal Lindsay in the sixties. I remember watching a film called 'thief in the night' in the seventies that was used as tool to convert people and then in the nineties the church I attended got all caught up with a New Zealander preacher called Barry Smith who made a whole ministry out of end times teaching (and I'm guessing quite a lifestyle too)

 

It is such a relief to be free of all that! It does take a while to shake it off - but it will happen.

 

You'll have all the resilience you need to fend off the next bout of end times teaching that crosses your path.

 

Alice