Aren't We Better Than This?

[Lanakila]

Christians believe that billions of humans will writhe forever in eternal torment. If they can live their lives peacefully believing that, then they should have no trouble handling any vitriol from ex-christians.

Not all Christians live their life peacefully believing that. I didn't when I was a believer. I was tormented by the what I believed at the time to be reality.

[Looking4Answers]

Failure of communication? It could be that you have changed your ideas expressed in your first post since then, but it seems to me that it was quite clear. You object to our using words like "stupid" and "fool" with reference to Christians posting on this site. Have I gotten that wrong? If you say people should stop using particular words and expressions, then you are recommending that we "put a lid on it". I don't understand why you are now trying to backtrack and deny that this is in fact your position. You are now evidently trying to reword it since you see the reception you are getting.

 

DevaLight,

 

No. That is not what I was doing or meaning. It is, on my part, a failure to communicate and this stems from me failing to understand. When I read "put a lid on it" I understand that to mean "shut up and don't say ANYTHING" and that is not what I meant. I gave examples throughout of what I thought (<-- my thoughts) would be a better way to communicate. I know realize how arrogant that was. Who am I to tell you what is BETTER? So I have learned. I "backtracked" because, from the arguments set forth, I realized something about what was being said. However, I was not going to take the blame for all that was laid against me. Again, I was not saying that people should simply "shut up", but I understand that some may have understood it that way. Is that clearer?

 

Vigile and Neon Genesis,

 

Thank you for your insights. I appreciate it.

 

HanSolo,

 

Thank you for your patience and understanding with me. I appreciate that as well.

 

Lanakila,

 

Yes, I understand this. I am gathering from several posts here that some ex-Christians have had similar thoughts as my original post. This tells me that this could be a stage that I am going through. Like I have been saying, I am learning. One thing I am trying to figure out is just who I am. And, believe it or not, for me this is not so easy. Perhaps I am just an idiot, but this is where I am at the moment.

 

Nightflight and Brother Jeff,

 

Not all Christians sit well with the idea of hell. In fact, it was one of the key things that drove me from the faith. I think that many Christians hear about hell, but refuse to really dwell on it ... to let the idea and the implications sink in. It is kind of like the woman that overlooks her abusive husband. It takes something hard to shake her out of her delusion. These people have staked both their lives and their "eternal" futures in this god and this book. If they seriously think of the implications of a place like hell, then they would have to realize the truth about the god of the Bible (I think). Because of their "investment" they may conveniently ignore the topic.

 

Most Christians I used to talk to would never really talk about hell at all. If the topic would come up, it would be very short and only to mention the sad state of those that would go there. This would often be to draw sympathy toward the "lost" and to motivate someone to be a "witness". But in most cases the topic was ignored ... except by preachers and evangelists trying to scare someone into making a "decision".

 

However, I agree ... if someone can casually talk about hell and state that the vast majority of people who have ever lived will go there and spend eternity frying ... well ... that is very offensive. The fact that they can sometimes be smug about it ... that is even more offensive.

[Deva]

DevaLight,

 

No. That is not what I was doing or meaning. It is, on my part, a failure to communicate and this stems from me failing to understand. When I read "put a lid on it" I understand that to mean "shut up and don't say ANYTHING" and that is not what I meant.

 

Yes it is clearer. I got a different meaning from what you posted. I never took it to mean you would want us all to shut up and not say anything.

 

Sorry, but I seem to have trouble understanding you Looking4Answers.

[Looking4Answers]

Sorry, but I seem to have trouble understanding you Looking4Answers.

 

Hey! I have trouble understanding my own self . Not a problem, DevaLight.

[Guest danny64]

I first read the original post. seemed reasonable. then i read the responses. many seemed equally resonable. i thought i should add something, even though the topic seemed nearle exahasted (egotistical i guess, but hell, i invested 20 minutes reading) i guess the real question i focus on is, what does the bitterness or bashing of xians accomplish? when it's two x xians having fun, laughing, bashing xians...it accomplishes a sort of catharsis, a good laugh that comes from deep inside, because many of us were raised to believe these lies and are still surrounded by xian co-workers, family members, spouses, television, and politicians that embrace this bull shit mythology as truth. where you may have a point is when an x xian is addressing a beliver. and for those of us that still try to engage a believer in a conversation about religion, again, it depends on the goal. if the goal is to blow off some steam and maybe say some things to rattle the believer and even offend them, even that can accomplish good. it makes the x xian feel good for one, and maybe makes the believer think a little. maybe. maybe it just pisses them off. i think there is a time to be gentle, to reason with a believer and calmly and respectfully converse...and many on this site do that at times. in conclusion, i reject what i understand as your premise (that we need to, overall, tone it down a bit and be more civil and even in discussing christian beliefs). it depends on the situation and the goal, and i think its pretty good here the way it is.

[Ouroboros]

HanSolo,

 

Thank you for your patience and understanding with me. I appreciate that as well.

No problema señor.

[Amethyst]

Christians believe that billions of humans will writhe forever in eternal torment. If they can live their lives peacefully believing that, then they should have no trouble handling any vitriol from ex-christians.

Not all Christians live their life peacefully believing that. I didn't when I was a believer. I was tormented by the what I believed at the time to be reality.

 

True -- however I know when I was young, I was raised to believe that and did for years.

 

And if you don't believe in a key doctrine of a religion and have a major problem with it while you are trying to be a member of that religion, then why continue to take on that religion's label?

 

If there were truly a divine being in existence, he/she/it/whatever would not care about labels or what religion a person belongs to during their life.

[R. S. Martin]

I first read the original post. seemed reasonable. then i read the responses. many seemed equally resonable. i thought i should add something, even though the topic seemed nearle exahasted (egotistical i guess, but hell, i invested 20 minutes reading) i guess the real question i focus on is, what does the bitterness or bashing of xians accomplish? when it's two x xians having fun, laughing, bashing xians...it accomplishes a sort of catharsis, a good laugh that comes from deep inside, because many of us were raised to believe these lies and are still surrounded by xian co-workers, family members, spouses, television, and politicians that embrace this bull shit mythology as truth.

 

Exactly! When one was born into it and dug one's way out painful inch by painful inch--the price was so astronomically high...in my case it nearly cost my life on more than one occasion and I'm not out of the woods yet by any stretch of the imagination; I might never get out completely. My situation is greatly improved and I'm among people who care for me. I'm pleased to be able to say that. The longer I'm out the clearer it becomes to me at whom the rage is directed. There were two people who are now in the grave. It felt like they held the powers of life and death over me. One was my mother and the other was the bishop. Both represented God.

 

But forty years in the dungeon left its mark and I did not escape unscathed. The severe injustice rages inside of me to this day and I may never get it all out. The tension is reduced since being on these forums. The most immediate need I had was to take drastic measures to separate myself from my biological family. Without the support of exC I could not have done this. However, many, many, many issues remain. There are biological and psychological scars I will live with for life as a result.

 

I am by no means the only person on exC with a story like this.

 

One thing I hear a lot here on exC from people who converted to Christianity on their own (weren't born into the church) is a feeling of intense embarrassment at having been deceived. Also, lots of people express strong negative feelings at having converted others, esp. their children.

 

where you may have a point is when an x xian is addressing a beliver. and for those of us that still try to engage a believer in a conversation about religion, again, it depends on the goal. if the goal is to blow off some steam and maybe say some things to rattle the believer and even offend them, even that can accomplish good. it makes the x xian feel good for one, and maybe makes the believer think a little. maybe. maybe it just pisses them off. i think there is a time to be gentle, to reason with a believer and calmly and respectfully converse...and many on this site do that at times.

 

In face to face situations I choose very carefully when and with whom I discuss religion. Mostly I don't talk religion with Christians in real life unless:

1. the relationship is strong enough to withstand sharp differences of opinion, or
   
2. the relationship is dispensable.
   

That's a personal decision for myself.

[PatrickB]

I just would hope that people could try to be more constructive with their rants.

 

I don't believe it is proper to try to take out my anger on others.

 

Now, why not use those same wonderful minds to post a better rant?

 

I believe what I was getting at was being better by communicating better.

 

However, those same feelings can be expressed in a more constructive way (IMO).

 

In a way, I don't. However, I still wonder if we would all be better served by thinking through our rants more and trying to be more constructive with them.

 

I am also fairly sure that people can be angry and civil and that people can defend their position without belittling the other person.

 

However, I still think that being civil is the best course of action.

 

However, people (myself included) might want to type out their rant in Word (or whatever word processor they like ), save it, take a break and then read it again before posting it again. When I have remembered to do that, I often thought to myself, "Man! That was harsh! Let's try that again." Or sometimes, "That just did not sound right! Glad I didn't post that!"

 

I guess I am just advocating that some people think before posting.

 

I was just thinking of HOW some people convey that idea to others. I was thinking that some people may think for a moment and say, "You know, I could have said that another way."

 

Ok, I thought about this post I made:

Sorry L4A!

 

I'm not going to pose for anybody. And typing angrily at my keyboard fucking everyone and every fucking thing has been more than tremendously helpful to me. I don't give a rat's ass fuck about making some sort of positive image of myself or anyone else who no longer believes in gawd. That's the way we get over things. Ok, not all of us, but it's a good thing as I see it. Go start a new ex-christian site called, exchristianbutnotbitterorangryandintelligentwithoutlosingonespatience.com or net or something.

I certainly could have put it differently. I could in fact have gone into a "college term paper" mode, complete with thesaurus, dictionary, and quotes cited from many sources to come across differently. I didn't want to then, and I don't want to now.

 

After spending years and years trying to control every thought, word and deed in the prison of my mind, with then finding no reason to have had to do so, the liberty of speaking freely and exactly how I want to in the moment is key.

 

I still fail to see how your opinion is truly all that different from your OP.

 

Oh, I forgot to use expletives. Damn it all!

[Robbobrob]

For my two cents: This is a place that is safe to be very, very emotional. Emotions do not write well. Emotions do not care about spelling, or grammar or whether they are being polite. They do not care about being rational, or sane, or balanced.

 

I for one tend to want to do exactly the opposite whenever someone says, "You should do it this way, not your way." (I am being very good....because my first reaction at the first post was most bloody and insulting with lots of jumping up and down with veins in my teeth yelling, "KILL, KILL, KILL!!")

 

There are some here that have been so hurt by Authority Figures telling them what to do, that they will over-react to even a suggestion that they should do anything a different way.

 

I think the OP has found a hidden, emotional landmine within the ex-cers, a landmine attached to not being told what to do because we should be better people.

 

For me, I nearly ruined my life repeatedly trying to be a perfect person....not allowing my art and my life to be fun and messy. This site is not for writing masterpieces....it is a scratch-pad to find what we really think and feel. If the random wandering in from the street Christian does not understand that....fuck em. I'm not here for them. I am here for me and the friends I have made here. Nothing else matters.

[xandermac]

I think L4 is a new deconvert with a lot on his plate. He was writing down thoughts. He still has a lot of changes or "stages" to go through. He's all alone, He's lost his family and he has no one to turn to but us. I don't think he meant to push anyone's buttons. IMHO.

[♦ nivek ♦]

"Mr Belief, meet Mr Grenade"

 

"Oh yeah, fuck you too!"

 

 

kFL

[chefranden]

I see all kinds of threads popping up here and there talking about how stupid Christians are, how foolish they are and how ridiculous their beliefs are. In some cases, no punches are pulled and people freely speak their minds allowing a lot of bitterness and vitriol to ooze to the surface in their posts. But is this really necessary? And, as I said before, aren't we better than this?

 

No, we aren't.

 

We are just people, and people get pissed. People want to yell when they get pissed, and they do yell. People also don't like to yell at themselves much. When they say, "Christians are stupid", they are saying, "I was stupid." "I can't believe I fell for that non-sense for so many years!" Given enough time it mostly wears off.

 

Quite a few people are newly out and are still suffering the anger of grief. Look around at the old timers here. You don't find much in the way of "Christians are stupid" coming out of their keyboards.

[ogilvy]

I can see where you're coming from because when I first joined this site I tended to get a bit shocked at some of the harsh and insulting posts, having been 'nice' and polite all my life (outwardly, at least), even before I was a Christian. I still find myself thinking like a Christian, even though I no longer believe. Although in real life I would not tend to want to insult people or hurt their feelings, I can see why it's good for people to have a place where they can come and vent their frustration with Christians for various reasons, and no Christian has to come here and listen to it if they don't like it

.

It IS stupid (or desperate or something)of people to believe illogical things,and irritating that they still do whereas we have moved forward!

[Guest Cracker]

I live in Pittsburgh PA (US) [Earth].

 

Back in the day...

The week revolved around Sunday, not because of church or god or anything like that but that's when the "Stillers" played. FYI fer fer'ners, the Pittsburgh STEELERS are an American ('Murkin) football team.

I knew all there was to know about the team, I knew who was hurt (but playing) and who wasn't going to play that day, I knew who they NEEDED and who was just fluff.

Mondays (and most of the rest of the week) heavily depended on if the Steelers had won or {the "NOT WIN" word here}. From Thursday on, the focus became the NEXT Sunday, the next game. I watched them in the glory years...four championships (Super Bowls) in 6 years.

 

Now...I couldn't tell you if they had a winning season.

I KNOW when games are on because that's when I go do my weekend shopping, (since I know the stores will be empty and the traffic will be light).

 

 

This thread and OUR experiences as Christians are much the same: The level of discourse is only as high as the emotional investment one puts into it all.

I read the entire thread and felt tugged this way and that but overall I didn't MUCH CARE...I've been out for a while, 10+years, (I've only come HERE because though I am "dead-again" I still do have a spiritual dimension that I needed to spend time in to heal the old wounds that could not be dealt with in any other way).

 

I think that those newly deconverted (I never really had a word for the process, it just more-or less "happened" over the course of time) are still heavily emotionally invested in christianity only NOW they're busy refuting that which they now know doesn't at all suit them.

 

Also, being a christian is muchly about being in "community", a "we're all in this together" (herd?) mentality which forces us to eschew our SELF into the corporate "body of christ"...the merest thought of "hey, let's ALL..." can really rankle folks at that point.

 

The OP (which I didn't find offensive) I saw as a "searching" post. A "who am I now?" post that externalized an inner turmoil: the real desire to "do right" while acknowledging that one is actively leaving the only way (one was TOLD) to "do right".

 

There was also an air of "evangelism" there, a, "hey, we NOW know what the Truth is, maybe we should endeavor to spread that Truth around?!"

At that point I would say to L4A, "Have fun with that," if that is how you feel about things, go ahead, have at it, knock yourself out!

 

In my opinion: we are, each of us, on this journey through life completely and utterly ALONE. The journey doesn't actually go anywhere...it begins, goes on for a while and then it ends. There is no "afterlife", there are no "rewards" nor "punishments".

Choosing to live in such an absurd world is the great burden and blessing of being human, recognizing that we do indeed have to choose how best (for our SELF) how to get through it. The hardest part (for me) is knowing that in order to "do right" I must first let go of the notion that there is a "wrong" way to "do it".

[nightflight]

I personally feel no requirement to be nice and cordial to Christians. I find their beliefs to be abusive and life-denying. They hate us for not walking under the dark cloud they do, they resent us for that. They find it outrageous that there are people who don't feel the guilt and fear they do. And you know damn well that if they could, they would use force to silence us and others who don't bow and scrape as they do, who don't give respect to "men of gawd" who make a living off of inducing guilt and fear into hard-working people and their children.

 

Fuck them. I don't give a rat's ass what they think about my decorum. My middle finger rises in their presence.

[par4dcourse]

100% in your corner. I'm tired of being nice to xians because it's "expected." I raise a finger with you.

[ogilvy]

Where I live, Christians are a small minority, not vocal in society, or particularly evangelical for the most part. They keep to themselves and don't bother anybody. It seems to be a different situation in the USA. There's not much reason to get mad at them where I am. It's only their illogicality and state of denial which upsets me, regarding certain topics.

[Antlerman]

Well... I tend to be a pretty peaceable sort about things around here and don't rant too often except on rare occasion, but I do understand the vitrol and its place. When I hear someone say Christians are stupid, I'm not seeing this necessarily as they literally think all Christians have low IQ's and pick their noses and eat it while they speak in broken English. In many regards its all about distancing oneself from their past in order to push any influence away from them while they work to sort everything out. In this regard, its theraputic. It's an expression, not necessarily a genuine sentiment regarding another humans actual intelliegence. Of course what they're saying is their beliefs are stupid, and their acting foolishly in accepting them. "You're stupid", is a really general way of saying "Why would you make such a foolish choice?" At least that's the meaning behind it as I hear it.

 

I understand when people express they don't want to coddle up to Christians. What they mean, as I'm hearing it anyway, is that that's not what they care to be concerned about. This is their time and their space to get it all off their chests in a community that allows it. When a Christian does walk into here, they may catch the flak that's being shot out, even if they themselves personally didn't act in any way to deserve being attacked. Of course those who decide they're going to try to do God's work in preaching us back home, well... I'm actually happy to see them here when they act this way as it gives the lion's some fresh meat to rip apart. I don't like seeing anyone who didn't do anything personally catch flak, but those who show disrespect are more than fair game.

 

I think maybe a way you could approach it if you feel someone is misdirecting their anger, is to point that out. But that's really an individual thing and not a sweeping generality. Sometimes it's better to focus your anger on more specific things than general, "they're all stupid idiots", but that's kind of part of the process and depends on where that individual is at. For myself, I generally focus my complaints at the leadership of the religion. It's them I hold culpable and will criticize and attack. It's the doctrines and those who support, not so much Joe in the pew. I see them as the victims, like we were in their place.

[mwc]

Aren't we better than this?

I'm craptastic.

 

mwc

[Onyx]

Indeed, I was once Christian.

Now I am an atheist.

I dealt with this de-conversion how?

I got angry at myself, my dad, the irrationality and the wrongheadness of it all.

I wrote satires about it (still do) wrote poems about it (still do) and blasphemed the trinity.

I expressed anger, sadness and embarrassment as all of you do when you've lost a security blanket and now it's time to face the real and very tempestuous world.

 

Like King Lear, in the thunder - we must all challenge ourselves and our world.

The question, how would we do it?

It varies.

 

EXC is a place where you can scream against the thunder and be secure within.

It is also a place of free speech and debate,

These rights of humanity since time immemorial.

It's also a place of friendships and camaraderie.

In fact, it is where we can turn to if we're too frustrated with that annoying Jesus is the reason for the season

Or if our mother-in-laws criticises us for not believing in God

Or if our fathers hit us for laughing at an impious joke.

 

We're not any better than anyone or anything, we're just human.

As human as the Christian as that may shock you.

We just try to do right by ourselves, that's all.

[chefranden]

I personally feel no requirement to be nice and cordial to Christians. I find their beliefs to be abusive and life-denying. They hate us for not walking under the dark cloud they do, they resent us for that. They find it outrageous that there are people who don't feel the guilt and fear they do. And you know damn well that if they could, they would use force to silence us and others who don't bow and scrape as they do, who don't give respect to "men of gawd" who make a living off of inducing guilt and fear into hard-working people and their children.

 

Fuck them. I don't give a rat's ass what they think about my decorum. My middle finger rises in their presence.

 

Looking back on my Christian career, I don't recognize myself in any of this. I don't recall ever preaching about or against "those evil bastards that aren't like us", even though I was pretty much a fundy. Of course "those evil bastards that aren't like us" are pretty much implied by the religion, but I felt no need to point a finger at them. I was pretty much of the mindset that one needed to work out one's own salvation with fear and trembling, and work on the log in one's own eye before you worried much about what the hell they were doing. Oddly enough, I suppose, I became a political liberal during my fundy years.

 

I can respect the feeling of not wanting to deal with Christian BS of which there is plenty, but I don't see much point in demonizing the many to accomplish that. In regards to the OP it does sound much like the olde "those evil bastards that aren't like us" again.

 

In the end though they hate us and we hate them because that is something humans do. There is something righteous and affirming about having an enemy that appeals to me and I think to most males, and perhaps females as well.

[Prysm]

I understand the anger and the need to rant, and I've unleashed tomes of words in rants to my husband. I get all my frustrations out with him, so I have little pent-up anger for internet forums. It's just not as much fun to type out a bitter response on a forum thread, anyway. I like having this place to think, and I don't think well when I'm angry. That, and letting myself be angry online tends to make me angry in real life. I'm not dignifying religion with that kind of power anymore. For the first time in my LIFE I know true peace, and I feel great. I know that there are people who are very alone in this, and they need these forums. By nature I am very confrontational, and it never goes well for me. I like having the freedom to not be angry, and I certainly won't deny anyone else their freedom to vent their frustrations. Live and let live. If you don't want to engage in low blows, then don't.

[Roan7995]

I reserve the right to be furious at cults, to condemn superstition, and to resent being lied to. It's not too much to ask for -- these are reasonable responses to the situation at hand. It's really unfortunate that leaving a religion gives a person so many negative feelings, but this could be remedied if religions did not do so much wrong in the first place.

[buffettphan]

Sometimes the negativity gets to me too. But more often than not, I find myself ranting right along with the best of 'em! As a kid who got in BIG trouble for not being nice or for saying the slightest naughty/blasphemous word, sometimes it just feels soooooo good to let loose with a stream of insults and obscenities! As the good girl in my family, I couldn't do that (or freely express my opinions/views) until waaaaaay into adulthood when it finally sunk into my thick skull that people-pleasing was not the way to live my one and only life.

 

Maybe this post and its comments will address some issues --

 

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2006/07...to-be-nice.html

 

Personally I find being nice to xtians and their irrational, illogical, idiotic beliefs just because they think respect is owed to them is bad for my health. If they respect me, fine. If they don't, LOOK OUT! That is, if I even give a shit at that particular moment. (BTW, those I-really-don't-give-a-shit moments are becoming more and more frequent the older I get! LOL)