Aren't We Better Than This?

[Ouroboros]

And btw, is there any explanation to why it is "better" to be timid and shy, instead of enraged over mind-raping religious ideas perpetrated by willfully ignorant followers?

 

So, the only options we have are either being "timid" or being "enraged"? We can either be weak or assholes? I am fairly sure there is an in-between. I am also fairly sure that people can be angry and civil and that people can defend their position without belittling the other person.

So what are you saying then? You say we should be better than the Christians, by not calling them fools or stupid, because the judgment you're making is that it is somehow better. Why is it better? How is it better? I can't see why we should behave "nice" because it is somehow "better". What is better? I don't understand what you're trying to say, because seriously, I don't know why "not-calling-someone-something-that-some-people-don't-like" to be better than to do it!?

 

Listen, this is how I see it now:

 

- some people on this website think or express that they feel Christians are stupid and fools

- you don't like it.

- therefore, you express your wish that people should not do it.

 

How is that fair? How is that applicable at all? Who's Gospel are we supposed to follow? Yours? Think about it. You're asking other people who you don't know to change behavior because their behavior doesn't fit your model. That is very judgmental in my mind. They have no reason to why they should fit into your idea of how things should be. Of course people should think before they speak. I wish most people did. But as you know, most of us humans don't. And I don't think you think before you speak all the time either, and honestly, I don't think you thought it through with this subject before you posted!

 

You know, there's a few things that offends me. One of them is when people tell me, or anyone else, how they should behave. I hate it. I hate it with gusto. It reminds me of religious dogma and mind-control. It makes me think of thought-policing. To tell other people how they should behave, only to fit a few voices, is not fair, is not right, is not just. It's against what I stand for, and I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with your topic. I think people here should call Christians stupid and idiots freely, and maybe they're not even doing it enough. The only times people should fall into guidelines is for the purpose of what this website is about. And the purpose is NOT to build bridges between Ex-Christians and Christians. If it were, then your point would be valid, but unfortunately that is not what this website is about.

 

I think what you should do instead is to start your own forum. Start a forum where the purpose is to build a bridge between faiths, and to overcome the obstacles in communication, and it would make perfect sense to have a guideline like that in there. But not in here. So, I encourage you, start a forum for ecumenical purpose. (I've had that thought for a while, and don't get me wrong, I think it would be a great thing. It's just that it's not what we do here.)

[R. S. Martin]

L4A, if you're not demanding, then please stop demanding. We don't need a preacher boy on here. Two mods have explained why the rules are as they are but you don't accept it; you insist that we need to change for you--a newbie. After everything this forum has done for you, this is the thanks we get. I couldn't read your posts. I've listened to enough sermonizing in my life. If you can't handle certain posts, by all means, SKIP THEM!

 

This particular forum dates back to April 2005. It's only the latest version. I have no idea when the first board was set up. I've only been here since Aug. 2006. This is not a new group and I consider it totally presumptuous on your part to try and change the rules and/or policies, esp. since you are so very new and not at all an established member on these forums yet.

 

Not that anything I say will mean anything. But I have much respect for Hans and pitchu. You disrespect them and you are well on the road to losing my respect.

 

Not that you will care...

[Ouroboros]

Thank you for your posts and clarification. I think you are taking this much to seriously, though. I was never demanding my way. I am testing a point and learning from it. That is all.

True. You didn't demand it, but you put it in a very judgmental way.

 

Lets say I said: Why do some people keep on insisting of telling other people to behave a certain way? Can't those people be better people? Shouldn't they be better human beings if they just stepped of their high horses and let us speak our minds?

 

Would you feel it hit you a bit hard? Especially in this topic, since that the two clashes we have here. You suggest people should tone it done, because they would be "better" people if they did. That is the same as saying: You are not a good person now because you're doing these things, but if you stop, then you'll be a better person.

 

But then again, better for whom? For you? For Bob down the street? For the world? For society? For IRS? I don't see why people would be better people if they stopped doing something that happens to offend you personally. Do you see what I'm saying?

 

If I'm offended by you telling people that they're not good people because they don't behave the way you want, then by all fairness, you offend me, then you should also stop asking for this. Right? If offense to one is the rule for policy, the the offense to someone else also has to apply.

 

Now, having said that, what would be wrong with telling someone that you think there is a better way and then suggesting it? Why would anyone be offended by that? And even if the way I thought would be better is not better, why is that offensive? Can't a father suggest to a child a way to help them get along better in society? Should the child be offended at this? Can't a friend, if he thinks he sees a friend behaving inappropriately, say anything about it (even if he is wrong)? By sharing our thoughts, we can learn from each other, right? I have learned a lot here in this thread. People here have given me much to think about and, for that, I am very happy.

Because the word "better" is based on your judgment of what you think is better. You're taking a position above the other person and telling them that you for sure know what "better" is for them. You are making yourself a mini-god over other people. Yes, you are. You're becoming Moses, and writing the 10 commandments, and telling people that if they do what you think is right, then they're "good people," but if they don't, between the lines you say, they're not good people if they don't follow your guideline.

 

That is simply not true. Again, I am arguing my point. I am trying to get through (if I think I am not) and I am testing my points to see if they stand. If they do not, then I learn that I am wrong. That is not giving no leeway. I did not come in here and say, "You must do things my way or else!" I simply stated what I thought, read what people wrote and responded. Nothing more. Nothing less. Take it or leave it. That is up to you.

But you do. You don't see it, but you really are saying: "do it this way." But you don't say it literally that way, you say it with: "It would be better if you ..." Which is putting a judgment between "good" and "bad." Only good boys wash their hands and say thank you, while bad boys are dirty and impolite.

 

I saw a part of a documentary from the 50's (I think it was), about a schoolteacher who intentionally manipulated the kids into different thinking using this exact method. She said things like: Boys with blue eyes are stupid. Bob did you remember you book today? No, you forgot it? And what color is your eyes? Blue? Well, there you see class, blue eyes boys are stupid and forgetful.

 

It's manipulation by using charged words. We will not be better because we act nice to Christians. We will not be better because we stop using offensive language. Because there are no one who can make a correct decision of what is "better" or "worse". It all depends on context.

 

If we want to have a meaningful dialogue, yes, then it is better to not use ad hominems, but that's not what we do here. We let people talk freely about how they feel, so there's no attempt of building understanding between Christians and us.

 

When you want to connect with a Christian, then be nice, kind, and all those things, but please, there's no need to generally tell people they would be "better" if they stopped behaving rude in the context of a site where they're supposed to be allowed to say what they want about Christians!!! Actually, it's rude to tell them not to!!!

 

--edit--

 

And just one more thing, believe me, I was EXACTLY where you are in the first year on this site. I had those thoughts too! So I do understand, but I'm trying to get you to understand this side, the other side, and I know you will eventually. A few times I took your standpoint too, and argued with some members they should be nicer, but you know what, I'm not here to tell people how to deal with their state after Christianity, it's their journey, and I'm here just to help them along. (Even though, sometimes we have to put some limits.) M'kay? Do know, there's no hard feelings here.

[Looking4Answers]

Hi Han,

 

Again, thank you. You are helping me to understand. I do want to respond to a couple of things you said (and who would have guessed that ).

 

No! I DON'T want to build a bridge between Christians and non-Christians. No! I don't want for ex-Christians to be more understanding of a Christians point of view (though I can see where a few of my posts here would make some people think that). I am against the Bible, the god of the Bible and the doctrine that so many churches teach. I don't believe it, don't want to believe it and, in many ways, I am made sick by the thought of it.

 

I was just thinking of HOW some people convey that idea to others. I was thinking that some people may think for a moment and say, "You know, I could have said that another way." For example, most people in this thread debated what I had to say and no one was really rude (as far as I can saw it). Most were very much opposed to what I was saying (and for a variety of reasons). Therefore, while this topic was distasteful to several of you, you all did a great job of correcting me without belittling me or calling me a stupid fool outright. You did a great job of telling if you were offended and why. I learned and am still learning. Again, I thank each of you.

 

I think, in some ways, I am still numb. I am still in the midst of all of this crap. I think some of my emotions have been dulled by the blur that I am currently in. Perhaps, in time, I will think as most of you do. Perhaps not. I can't say at the moment.

 

I think I was looking at this like how I see most things operate when I go to the store, the post office, etc. Most people are polite with one another. True, most people are standing in the grocery line debating Christianity. But I have been in the workplace and have seen people deal with anything from religion to politics. In most cases the disagreements, while extreme, were quite civil.

 

In any case, Hans, I respect you. Please believe that. My intention was not to offend anyone. My intention was to discuss things as I saw them. I have and I am learning. It has been (and continues to be) a great lesson to me.

 

Again, thanks !

[Looking4Answers]

And just one more thing, believe me, I was EXACTLY where you are in the first year on this site. I had those thoughts too! So I do understand, but I'm trying to get you to understand this side, the other side, and I know you will eventually. A few times I took your standpoint too, and argued with some members they should be nicer, but you know what, I'm not here to tell people how to deal with their state after Christianity, it's their journey, and I'm here just to help them along. (Even though, sometimes we have to put some limits.) M'kay? Do know, there's no hard feelings here.

 

Of course not! No hard feelings. Man! This is the internet, OK? It's not like you've been my drinking buddy for the last 20 years and now we get into some kind of fight and won't talk to each other . Again, I appreciate your insight. It is helpful to know that what I am talking about and experiencing is most likely because of my recent de-conversion. Like I said, I am a bit numb emotionally.

[Dhampir]

Alright, this ought to clear this up a little more. In addition to what has been said, by everyone, I'd add this:

I was just thinking of HOW some people convey that idea to others. I was thinking that some people may think for a moment and say, "You know, I could have said that another way."

Don't worry about that. At all. If it becomes too much for you to handle, you'll take the issue up with that particular INDIVIDUAL. Otherwise, don't worry about it.

 

So there

[Looking4Answers]

L4A, if you're not demanding, then please stop demanding. We don't need a preacher boy on here. Two mods have explained why the rules are as they are but you don't accept it; you insist that we need to change for you--a newbie. After everything this forum has done for you, this is the thanks we get. I couldn't read your posts. I've listened to enough sermonizing in my life. If you can't handle certain posts, by all means, SKIP THEM!

 

This particular forum dates back to April 2005. It's only the latest version. I have no idea when the first board was set up. I've only been here since Aug. 2006. This is not a new group and I consider it totally presumptuous on your part to try and change the rules and/or policies, esp. since you are so very new and not at all an established member on these forums yet.

 

Not that anything I say will mean anything. But I have much respect for Hans and pitchu. You disrespect them and you are well on the road to losing my respect.

 

Not that you will care...

 

Get a grip. OK? Seriously. I did not set out to disrespect a soul here. I did not call out a single name and claim that person was being an idiot or any such thing. I spoke my mind (the same as the rest of you here) and then get blasted for it.

 

I have said this several times, I was never making a demand! I was simply stating what I saw and seeking answers. People like Pitchu, HanSolo, Noob, Dhampir and others gave me answers. They were helpful. I have come to an understanding. I am glad I started this thread BECAUSE I DAMN WELL LEARNED SOMETHING FROM IT!!

 

If you couldn't read my posts (or didn't read my posts) then why are you even bothering to reply in here? If you had read them then you might see the transition in me. You might see me saying that I am beginning to understand. You might see me coming to a point where I am actually hearing what you folks have to say.

 

Oh! And I deeply appreciate what the people on the forum have done for me. DEEPLY! But that does not mean I get whipped into being a good boy behaving as everyone wants me too, either.

 

Many here have expressed how they didn't like me telling them how to behave (though that was not my intention ... seriously). Well, aren't you telling me that my behavior is wrong? Isn't what you posted the same damn thing? If you don't like it, then don't do it to me, alright?

 

You disrespect them and you are well on the road to losing my respect.

 

Not that you will care...

 

How do you know if I will care or not? With an attitude like you displayed here, perhaps I should not, but I do. You have helped me in the past. You have checked up on me. I appreciate it. Seriously. Hans, on the other hand, showed me why he hates this kind of a thread (and the concepts I presented) while at the same time letting me know why he understands what I posted. By doing so, he has helped me greatly.

[Looking4Answers]

Don't worry about that. At all. If it becomes too much for you to handle, you'll take the issue up with that particular INDIVIDUAL. Otherwise, don't worry about it.

 

So there

 

Yeah! Right back at'cha!

 

You know, Dhampir, you it the nail on the head! Seriously! Between you and Hans, I am getting it! I just need to relax and not TRY so hard to make things right (or whatever).

 

See! While this thread may have got some people upset (sorry about that, folks), it has helped me greatly.

[Emme]

I don't think you have to apologize. We can't agree all the time. I hope this won't discourage you from expressing your thoughts.

 

[R. S. Martin]

Well, aren't you telling me that my behavior is wrong?

 

That is not what I am telling you. It is what I hear you telling me--in every single post in this thread up to where I posted. I read the beginning of every post. Sometimes I thought you were changing but always and always I would run up against the concept that we do need to control how we express ourselves.

 

You are not my bishop. You have no right telling me what to do and I don't have to listen to you. In rejecting the advice of everyone in this thread you proved to me that you don't care what people think and you lost my respect.

 

I notice that at this precise moment when you get my post you decide to change your story and tell all the other people how much they helped you. Up till that moment you rejected everything they said.

 

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding a lot of stuff but there are an awful lot of things that do not add up in my mind.

[Looking4Answers]

I notice that at this precise moment when you get my post you decide to change your story and tell all the other people how much they helped you. Up till that moment you rejected everything they said.

 

And I call BULLSHIT on you, R. S. Martin. You either don't know how to read or you just want to start a fight. Your first post in this thread was at 1:44 AM (forum time). Here are some quotes from my earlier posts:

 

12:57 AM:

 

Still, like I said, I have learned something here (and, yes, even from your posts ). I think I have been trained to be civil in too many cases . Please remember, I am still in search of myself. I am bound, in this journey, to make many mistakes.

 

12:49 AM:

 

In any case, I am (finally) hearing what is being said here. I am understanding better. Not only am I understanding this site better (and the people here), but I am learning something about myself.

 

10:57 PM (previous night):

 

People hear are trying to argue against what I am saying and, in fact, you all are giving me a lot to think about. And, believe it or not, I appreciate it.

 

10:18 (previous night):

 

In any case, I do appreciate all the posts here. They each give me something to think about.

 

Noob, I really want to thank you for your post. It was very eye-opening. I agree, 17+ years as a Christian and many years as a pastor and missionary have certainly influenced my thinking.

 

Oh! And by the bleepin' way, I was in the process of TYPING my response to HanSolo's post (the one just before yours) when you were typing your response. I did not even read your post until AFTER I had read Dhampir's post at 1:53 AM.

 

You are not my bishop.

 

Never claimed to be. Don't want to be. Man! You get bent very easily, don't you?

 

You have no right telling me what to do and I don't have to listen to you.

 

I never have tried to tell you, R. S. Martin, what to do (until now), but I ask you to take your own damn advise:

 

If you can't handle certain posts, by all means, SKIP THEM!

 

You said that in your first post. Now why not do that yourself?

 

In rejecting the advice of everyone in this thread you proved to me that you don't care what people think and you lost my respect.

 

Can't you read? I haven't rejected anyone's advice! Like I said, I poked and prodded the arguments that other put forth. In the end, I began to understand. Sheesh!

[Looking4Answers]

I read the beginning of every post.

 

The beginning is just that ... the beginning. Reading only the beginning would be like reading the first chapter of a book and drawing a conclusion about the book and the author (imo).

 

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding a lot of stuff but there are an awful lot of things that do not add up in my mind.

 

Well, how about ASKING instead of jumping to conclusions?!?

[Looking4Answers]

I don't think you have to apologize. We can't agree all the time. I hope this won't discourage you from expressing your thoughts.

 

 

Nope. No reason why it should. Some people may have gotten mad (which was not my intention), but I learned something. If I had not expressed my opinion, then I would not have learned a thing. In fact, I learned something valuable about myself in all of this. I have, for years, been "trained" to think of everyone else. In all of that, I believe I have lost myself. I need to find a balance between being consumed with what others think and not becoming a totally selfish butt-head. I think HanSolo and Dhampir hit the nail on the head several times. And, with my thick skull, it took a few whacks to sink it in .

[Deva]

DevaLight,

 

I think I am just failing to communicate. Please forgive me. I truly did not mean to indicate that anyone should "put a lid on it". However, people (myself included) might want to type out their rant in Word (or whatever word processor they like ), save it, take a break and then read it again before posting it again. When I have remembered to do that, I often thought to myself, "Man! That was harsh! Let's try that again." Or sometimes, "That just did not sound right! Glad I didn't post that!"

 

I guess I am just advocating that some people think before posting. I am just as guilty in some cases.

 

 

Failure of communication? It could be that you have changed your ideas expressed in your first post since then, but it seems to me that it was quite clear. You object to our using words like "stupid" and "fool" with reference to Christians posting on this site. Have I gotten that wrong? If you say people should stop using particular words and expressions, then you are recommending that we "put a lid on it". I don't understand why you are now trying to backtrack and deny that this is in fact your position. You are now evidently trying to reword it since you see the reception you are getting.

 

This is the internet. By nature people who don't see the person on the other side of the computer screen and will probably never see them in "real life" are going to tend to be more direct in their opinions. Its just a fact. Should we sometimes step away from it and consider how our writing comes across? Absolutely. But you were making specific objections in the beginning to words being used on this site, it was not so general a criticism.

 

What I really think is that you still have that Bible verse floating around in your head where Jesus says that anyone who calls someone a fool is in danger of hell fire.

 

Anyway, I am glad if you did learn something more about this site and its purpose.

[Amethyst]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

 

Now, of course we know all Christians don't believe in the Bible literally. But how is it not stupid to continue to take a label for the purposes of social acceptance when you don't believe in those things? When the loudest members of your religion who get interviewed on TV express constantly their hatred for people who are not like them? For people who are different? How is it NOT stupid to not stand up to that hate and say, "I don't want to carry that label anymore because it's come to mean bigotry?" How is it not stupid to continue to carry the Christian label out of fear that you won't be accepted socially anymore if you don't have it? Do the liberals really and honestly want to be associated with the fundies, because as long as they carry that label, they will be.

 

And for the literal believers, I know lifelong brainwashing plays a part in their belief (and yes, it IS brainwashing when you tell someone from the age of baby hood and up to believe in something with no proof, and on a daily basis to boot). However when people present you repeatedly with evidence that your beliefs are false, and you continue to put your head in the sand and stick your fingers in your ears and say "la la la la la la I can't hear you, Jesus is real and you're going to hell," how is that not stupid?

 

Just because behavior is stupid, does not mean that it is impossible for a person's behavior to change. I think most of us here know that. Certainly some of us behaved like that when we were Christians, and I will admit to having been stupid when I was young and dumb and didn't know any better, and all I wanted was to fit in and for my family to love me. And acting like a fundy was the only way to get that love from certain family members.

 

But I don't see anything horribly, terribly wrong to call a person's behavior stupid on the internet when it is, especially when you need a place to vent freely and you know you can never, ever say those things in real life without losing your job, etc.

 

This is not to say of course, that we should hate all Christians, etc. But if something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck and it should get called a duck and not a rose.

[Vigile]

For people that believe in Christ ... I mean REALLY believe in him ... they LOVE Christ very, very much. When they come to a web site like this they only get angry and this only goes to further fuel their own preconceived ideas that atheists and agnostics are a bunch of ravenous dogs.

 

L4A, this site wasn't created for xians, or to help xians, or to give a good impression of ourselves to xians. It's a site where all (meaning all) issues, questions, feelings which need to be expressed and/or examined by people who've left xianity can be expressed and examined safely.

 

If any xian comes here and reads only expressions of vitriol, neglecting to read the Testimonies or any of the tons of other stuff of all sorts; neglecting to be curious to try to find out why there would be such vitriol expressed by those who've left the faith, then goes off in a huff... well... all I can say is that's what many of us have learned to expect from xians.

 

I'll second this and add one thing.

 

Better than what? People who come to this site are fed up to here with xianity and xian bullshit in their lives. Blowing off steam and saying what they really think isn't a moral low point in their lives; oftentimes its a breakthrough into a newfound freedom . IMO the world would be a better place if bullshit is called for what it is and people didn't dance around it so much in order not to rock the boat or offend other's sensibilities.

 

A lot less bullshit would be thrust at our lives if people felt more free to speak up about it that's for sure.

 

As for calling someone stupid and/or foolish, I tend to leave that up to the individual to figure out on their own where they want to go with that. Personally if a christian comes on this site and proves themselves to be stupid and foolish I have no problem calling them out on it. At the same time, I try and give them the benefit of the doubt and let them put their foot in it before telling them they have dog shit on their shoe. When we are talking about generalizations, I don't agree that all xians are stupid. I think they believe stupid things but that's a bit different than thinking they are stupid people. If others on this site wish to express themselves in generalizations I think that perhaps that's just how they feel at the moment and it's a thought they probably need to express. As Pitchu said, we are not here to coddle xians, but rather support the needs of those who have the need to blow off steam.

[Vigile]

Hello, L4A! As I read your OP, my first reaction was to feel guilty. You see, I posted under Humor on Saturday and I made fun of the book, Christianity for Dummies. Of course, the post elicited a few responses that made fun of Christians. I started thinking perhaps it had been inappropriate. You see, I have been a people pleaser all of my life so right away… I felt wrong! However, as I read through the rest of the thread, it helped me realize that I’m using the humor to help myself with my deconversion. And, beyond that I am laughing at myself. I’m embarrassed that I was operating under such a ridiculous delusion for so long. When I first started reading Ex-C, I found myself shocked by the irreverent humor. But, it’s played a big role in helping me see how silly the whole religion thing really is.

 

Now this is a good example of what this website is here for. Christianity is designed to make people feel guilty about things they shouldn't feel guilty about in the first place. The last thing we need is to create more contrived guilt in people's lives. Thinking xianity is stupid is nothing to feel bad about and saying so is quite liberating; the louder and more vitriolic the better.

 

When I first came to this site there was a thread called Fuck Jesus, or something along those lines. In the thread participants were encouraged to tell Jesus, the HS, the church to fuck off using every last expletive in the book. I and many others let it rip there and I have to tell you it felt great.

 

I'd encourage some of the newer members to start another one of these, it's really helpful to get it off your chest and it's really eye opening for some that after they do so lightening doesn't actually strike and they don't lose their jobs and their dog doesn't die.

[Ouroboros]

I was just thinking of HOW some people convey that idea to others. I was thinking that some people may think for a moment and say, "You know, I could have said that another way." For example, most people in this thread debated what I had to say and no one was really rude (as far as I can saw it). Most were very much opposed to what I was saying (and for a variety of reasons). Therefore, while this topic was distasteful to several of you, you all did a great job of correcting me without belittling me or calling me a stupid fool outright. You did a great job of telling if you were offended and why. I learned and am still learning. Again, I thank each of you.

I agree. If the purpose of a communication is to convey ideas, or discuss, then there are certain rules that apply, not for the reason of some greater good, but for the pure reason that it tends to be detrimental to the wanted outcome of said communication. But in some cases there actually can be useful to call things the way they are, without holding back. For some people it's necessary that they wake up and see what they've become, so there are times I've called Christians liars in debates here on this site. And the reason was to make them realize that they are measured with the same cup as they measure us. When a Christian call us fools, stupids, and liars, it's necessary to return the favors at a times and make them see what they do to us. It's not about just being rude, it's about sending a message: "I'm doing to you, what you do to me, and if you don't like it, then don't do it to me, that's your rule, not mine." Just like it's good to call a Christian who steals anti-religious plaques, thieves. There's no reason to hold the truth back, when they do act that way. And when Christians call me a fool, which they do occasionally, I will have all the reasons to let them know they are bigger fools than me. After all, calling each other fools is a Biblical thing.

 

I think, in some ways, I am still numb. I am still in the midst of all of this crap. I think some of my emotions have been dulled by the blur that I am currently in. Perhaps, in time, I will think as most of you do. Perhaps not. I can't say at the moment.

Right. And I think you even one day might start calling Christians idiots.

 

I think I was looking at this like how I see most things operate when I go to the store, the post office, etc. Most people are polite with one another. True, most people are standing in the grocery line debating Christianity. But I have been in the workplace and have seen people deal with anything from religion to politics. In most cases the disagreements, while extreme, were quite civil.

Yes, but consider the context. The setting in which the communication is done is different. If you go and listen to a political debate, there are certain rules and certain behaviors, but do people in normal cases talk like that? Or lets say we watch the Nobel Prize winners, the debate about the world situation they usually air (at least when I grew up, back in Sweden) the same week. They're very polite, and very organized, and advanced language. But do you think that's the way we all should, at all times, discuss? What about the two bums on the street when they talk about the latest soup kitchen, are we supposed to make them take English classes and learn 2,000 new words before we can accept their dialogue? The situation is key here. Context, context, context. You're rant was directed at the people at this place, and it's the wrong place to ask for a behavior which isn't called for. In a debate there would be, but here, no.

 

In any case, Hans, I respect you. Please believe that. My intention was not to offend anyone. My intention was to discuss things as I saw them. I have and I am learning. It has been (and continues to be) a great lesson to me.

I know. That's why I didn't start calling you names...

[Ouroboros]

Nope. No reason why it should. Some people may have gotten mad (which was not my intention), but I learned something. If I had not expressed my opinion, then I would not have learned a thing. In fact, I learned something valuable about myself in all of this. I have, for years, been "trained" to think of everyone else. In all of that, I believe I have lost myself. I need to find a balance between being consumed with what others think and not becoming a totally selfish butt-head. I think HanSolo and Dhampir hit the nail on the head several times. And, with my thick skull, it took a few whacks to sink it in .

Amen.

[Neon Genesis]

I think that if a xtian was to come to a site like this and not expect to find something offensive here, then frankly they are rather foolish. It'd be like me going to a fundie site and to expect me to not find something offensive to non-fundies there, hence one reason why I don't waste my time going to xtian sites to begin with. I don't always agree with what everyone at ex-c says and I can see why some xtians would find some posts here to be offensive, but this is what I like about ex-c. That we can freely speak our mind without fear of being banned or censored unlike you would at most xtian sites. Also, another thing I like about ex-c is that when you do say something offensive, people here will hold you to what you say. Like, they won't ban you for calling xtians stupid, but you're generally expected to explain that opinion, if what I'm saying makes sense. I typically try to follow the Golden Rule when I'm debating with others, but one thing people forget is that do unto others goes both ways. If a xtian wants me to treat them with respect, they have to treat me with respect, too. Also, not all Christians who come to ex-c are always treated with contempt. There have been Christians who have posted here in the past that were mostly treated with respect here at ex-c because they treated others with respect. Go look up the posts by the Christians Sojourner and Yolanda to see for yourself. Besides, I think that nine times out of ten, the xtians who come here tend to be far more offensive than anything I've read by any ex-c member. When a xtian comes here for the sole purpose of telling you that you deserve to be tortured for all eternity, telling them that they're delusional is practically a compliment.

[Lanakila]

Frankly L4A I was the same way you started out here when I first deconverted too. I never really went through the anger and need to rant stage that many of the members on this board go through. But my journey was/is different so I've convinced myself not to judge them. But that doesn't mean I want to read all the vitrol either. I've been a member of this board since during my deconversion in Dec 2003 and I come and go all the time because frankly I don't like the vitrol towards Christianity or Christians. To each their own and all that, but mostly I prefer to move on from the recently deconverted to just living my life as an unbeliever.

[nightflight]

Christians believe that billions of humans will writhe forever in eternal torment. If they can live their lives peacefully believing that, then they should have no trouble handling any vitriol from ex-christians.

[Brother Jeff]

Christians believe that billions of humans will writhe forever in eternal torment. If they can live their lives peacefully believing that, then they should have no trouble handling any vitriol from ex-christians.

And that thought makes many of those "loving" Christians very happy! Glory!

 

My extremely religious fundie nut aunt undoubtedly believes that my Dad is going to roast in hell forever, but she doesn't seem overly bothered by it. I think like most Christians, she doesn't REALLY believe in hell, or she hasn't honestly thought through the moral implications of this morally reprehensible doctrine.

[Vigile]

Christians believe that billions of humans will writhe forever in eternal torment. If they can live their lives peacefully believing that, then they should have no trouble handling any vitriol from ex-christians.

 

I wish we had a voting mechanism on this forum.

 

Awesome point NF!

[Brother Jeff]

I praise God for this glorious site! It has been tremendously helpful to me over the years. And I was one of those who needed to vent and rant and rage when I deconverted. And I didn't give a flying fuck what Christians thought about what I had to say. And I still don't.

 

I don't think that most Christians are stupid people. I do think that most of them are ignorant and either misinformed or just are totally uninformed in many areas. It really upsets me when these people speak with authority on subjects that they obviously know little or nothing about. I despise Creationists and the fucking moron Christians who listen to them and parrot their bullshit because they are too goddamn lazy to do their homework. I'm get angry at Creationists because they are knowingly and intentionally lying for God which in my mind is the worst possible kind of dishonesty, and I get angry at Christians because they are so accustomed to just uncritically believing whatever they hear from the pulpit or from Christian apologists that they have become too fucking lazy to do their homework to see if what they are being taught is actually true. And dishonest Creationists and apologists count on this willful intellectual laziness!

 

If Christians weren't the most ignorant, arrogant, judgmental, obnoxious, and hateful people on the face of the earth, I would love them and I wouldn't have anything bad to say about them. Glory!