Afterlife Thoughts!

[Guest end3]

I recently listened to John Shelby Spong say how he sees the message of Christianity summarized in Jesus' saying, "I come that they might have life and have it more abundantly". It's in the spirit of that which I'm talking, though not holding up Jesus as the object of faith (I don't thing Spong necessarily does either actually). Of course I have more in common with Spong that your typical Evangelical Christian who finds Spong to be a heretic.

 

I see it differently, I believe the more abundant life stems from a perfect love that man cannot produce and "knowing" the reason for our journey. This enables us to understand that when the tire goes flat on the way to grandma's house, it's ok, because when we get to grandma's there is a feast and love abounds.........the grandma being Christ in my scenerio.

 

Maybe I am just prejudiced by Christianity, but even in the work place, if people know what is expected and what is the result, then they are much happier.

 

And another thing AM, seriously, if I had an experience that closely matched the descriptions in the Bible, as did you, why not accept that this white light, more than religion experience, was God? Why do you not?

[Ouroboros]

If God exists, and God wants us all to know him, and all what is needed is some "white light" experience, then why didn't I get one? No supernatural or magical happening or miracle at all. Even when God had every chance to just do the smallest thing to show his "love", he didn't do it. I love my family more than God, because I'm stuck to their side and help them, while God has been absent. I am God to this family, because I do answer prayer when my kids ask. If God exists, he surely make it really hard to believe he exists. So tell me, why does God choose to avoid some people and refuse them any miracle, even the smallest sign, when they desperately need it?

[Guest end3]

It really perplexes you how I could have an experience such as you read me share, and not see it as you do and say what I do, doesn't it? I think you just don't understand the spirit of what I'm saying and what I believe. It's not inconsistent. In fact it’s very consistent.

 

 

Yes, truthfully, to me, it comes across as a touch arrogant. If you knew how many people would give almost anything to have an "experience" that would give them some type of answer, then I would think it would mean more to you. I don't know you and have accused you, in error, of things in the past, which was wrong of me, but from where I am sitting, yes, it does seem like you would accept this experience as being something more than just a seach for the cause of the experience.

[Guest end3]

If God exists, and God wants us all to know him, and all what is needed is some "white light" experience, then why didn't I get one? No supernatural or magical happening or miracle at all. Even when God had every chance to just do the smallest thing to show his "love", he didn't do it. I love my family more than God, because I'm stuck to their side and help them, while God has been absent. I am God to this family, because I do answer prayer when my kids ask. If God exists, he surely make it really hard to believe he exists. So tell me, why does God choose to avoid some people and refuse them any miracle, even the smallest sign, when they desperately need it?

 

I don't know Hans, maybe he knew you were a Swedish bastard that would pull himself up by his bootstraps and move forward....

[Ouroboros]

I don't know Hans, maybe he knew you were a Swedish bastard that would pull himself up by his bootstraps and move forward....

Yes. God is me. I'm the one doing the miracles in my life. That's what God intended me to do.

 

(And you forgot "arrogant" in "arrogant bastard". )

[chefranden]

Where does the peace for us? Sure, I agree that service to others is noble, but to what end is the question I am asking.

 

End, it's kind of too bad that you need an ulterior motive to be Nice. But since you asked: The end is reciprocity. Evolutionarily speaking your good deeds contribute to the groups survival, and therefore to your own. Two things happen when you do service. You get a good reputation, and people like to do things for people with good reputations. You also create a debt of help that you can call on in your times of need. It is true that people don't always reciprocate, and they may cheat you. However, in the end the deeds even out.

 

Now you can ask, why should we survive? My answer, because we want to. To be crude about it, your genes want to get into the next generation. Why should genes want to get into the next generation? There is no should about it. It is just what they do. The universe has no end in mind. You have ends in mind, because the feelings that compel you towards those ends are useful for getting your genes into the next generation. Even your feelings for religion help in this matter, because it gets you a group to belong to.

 

As it happens, most members here no longer find the religious group of yore to be useful to them now. But they are still people and people belong in groups -- being social and all. You could consider us the outcasts, the leper colony if you will. We can't belong to the church group because we can no longer qualify by being believers.

 

My main point here, End, is there is no end out there. That is there is nothing to work towards outside of life itself. If you want purpose, you'd better have it now, because now is all you have. There is no afterlife for you to have purpose in, so don't put purpose off until then. This moment in which you do your noble deed is the only end you get, End.

[Guest end3]

Where does the peace for us? Sure, I agree that service to others is noble, but to what end is the question I am asking.

 

End, it's kind of too bad that you need an ulterior motive to be Nice. But since you asked: The end is reciprocity. Evolutionarily speaking your good deeds contribute to the groups survival, and therefore to your own. Two things happen when you do service. You get a good reputation, and people like to do things for people with good reputations. You also create a debt of help that you can call on in your times of need. It is true that people don't always reciprocate, and they may cheat you. However, in the end the deeds even out.

 

Now you can ask, why should we survive? My answer, because we want to. To be crude about it, your genes want to get into the next generation. Why should genes want to get into the next generation? There is no should about it. It is just what they do. The universe has no end in mind. You have ends in mind, because the feelings that compel you towards those ends are useful for getting your genes into the next generation. Even your feelings for religion help in this matter, because it gets you a group to belong to.

 

As it happens, most members here no longer find the religious group of yore to be useful to them now. But they are still people and people belong in groups -- being social and all. You could consider us the outcasts, the leper colony if you will. We can't belong to the church group because we can no longer qualify by being believers.

 

My main point here, End, is there is no end out there. That is there is nothing to work towards outside of life itself. If you want purpose, you'd better have it now, because now is all you have. There is no afterlife for you to have purpose in, so don't put purpose off until then. This moment in which you do your noble deed is the only end you get, End.

 

As I personally feel God will accept you Chef, I would love to see your expression when the love/light hits.

 

Seriously, you make it sound almost believable, but I have noticed the lack of explanation to AM's white light experience....where's the gene physiology statement that goes with that?

 

Hello, is this thing on??? I'll be here all week...

[Antlerman]

I recently listened to John Shelby Spong say how he sees the message of Christianity summarized in Jesus' saying, "I come that they might have life and have it more abundantly". It's in the spirit of that which I'm talking, though not holding up Jesus as the object of faith (I don't thing Spong necessarily does either actually). Of course I have more in common with Spong that your typical Evangelical Christian who finds Spong to be a heretic.

 

I see it differently, I believe the more abundant life stems from a perfect love that man cannot produce and "knowing" the reason for our journey. This enables us to understand that when the tire goes flat on the way to grandma's house, it's ok, because when we get to grandma's there is a feast and love abounds.........the grandma being Christ in my scenerio.

 

Maybe I am just prejudiced by Christianity, but even in the work place, if people know what is expected and what is the result, then they are much happier.

There’s a number of things in this I’ll try to address. I don’t believe that abundant life comes from believing that at the end of the road there’s hot apple pie and a warm house to cuddle up in a big blanket. I believe in comes from recognizing the value and the beauty of now, of living in the moment. It’s a perception of beauty in the moment beyond distractions of fear. Even that flat tire can be taken in the context that all is good, because this is life and worth living, in the pleasant and unpleasant. We can find freedom in the realization that heaven and hell are matters of choice, they are matters of faith that aren’t dependent on circumstances. Not heaven after death, but heaven now. It’s all a matter of perception, a matter of faith (if you can understand that term outside the misuse in oh so many religious circles).

 

Perfect love is ours, but it comes through our ability to see (“faith”) it now, not as a result of telling ourselves when we die all will be good. It’s not a case of coaxing a good feeling through saying all will be better some day. It’s embracing life in the moment.

 

And another thing AM, seriously, if I had an experience that closely matched the descriptions in the Bible, as did you, why not accept that this white light, more than religion experience, was God? Why do you not?

I did for a great many years, and in a sense I do now, but in ways that don’t jibe with any theological ways of understanding “God” (at least not conservative ways of understanding – I give far more credit to liberals however in this regard). It’s more in recognizing that we call that “God”, if you catch my meaning. It was that experience that set the course of my life since that time. It’s what led me to seek out knowledge of God, of the meaning, of the significance of it for well the past 30 years. It’s still as poignant and profound to me today as it was then.

 

I just simply have found that going the path of trying to relate this as any idea of some spruced up ancient god of a primitive peoples literature diminishes it. To even understand this as some external god, is use the language of that culture which infused our culture with such a perception. I don’t know the answers. But I do know what is inconsistent with it, and what is in tune with it. It transcends doctrines, or religions. It’s the spirit of love in life and through our humanity, if we can get beyond these sad facades we hide ourselves behind in fear. Salvation isn’t going to heaven after you die, it’s freedom within life now. However you find your way to it.

 

It really perplexes you how I could have an experience such as you read me share, and not see it as you do and say what I do, doesn't it? I think you just don't understand the spirit of what I'm saying and what I believe. It's not inconsistent. In fact it’s very consistent.

 

 

Yes, truthfully, to me, it comes across as a touch arrogant. If you knew how many people would give almost anything to have an "experience" that would give them some type of answer, then I would think it would mean more to you. I don't know you and have accused you, in error, of things in the past, which was wrong of me, but from where I am sitting, yes, it does seem like you would accept this experience as being something more than just a seach for the cause of the experience.

I would hope I don’t come across as arrogant, but I know sometimes my style is taken that way by some. Trust me, it isn’t a matter of pride. It was the most humbling experience of my life, like standing before the grandeur of an infinite mountain range. You feel both insignificant, yet of priceless value before and as part of the whole of life. My point in asking this is that to someone who defines something like this in the terms of their cultural understand, probably finds it disconcerting to hear someone of the same culture define it otherwise. Again, I did go down that road initially, understanding it as such, but found it distracting to define it like this.

 

What I “saw”, was in me. It’s something profound about us, about life. You can use whatever language works for you.

 

As far as it giving me an answer… I’m chuckling respectfully at that. It hardly gave me an answer! On the contrary, it was the Question that began the quest I’m still on today. What it did was open me to possibility, to Beauty, to Love, to Life, to Peace, to Strength, to Grace, etc. It began my belief in Love. It spawned a longing in spirit for that wellspring of Life in me which is as alive today as it was then.

 

I will grant it that I did find in the language of Christian certain sayings that gave expression to it, such as “living waters”, etc. But that’s all a case of baby and the bathwater. I certainly don’t see those things as words of God, but as human expressions of these sorts of things that are common in human experience. There is some value in certain things, but the bathwater is quite difficult to do away with, especially when you have so damned many arguments about it be Truth with an immutable capital T. That is so contrary to the spirit of what filled my heart and changed my life.

[chefranden]

As I personally feel God will accept you Chef, I would love to see your expression when the love/light hits.

 

Seriously, you make it sound almost believable, but I have noticed the lack of explanation to AM's white light experience....where's the gene physiology statement that goes with that?

 

Hello, is this thing on??? I'll be here all week...

 

I had a blue light experience, and not the one at K-Mart. It was the only experience I had that I could feel was God's presence. It lasted maybe 30 seconds and was all I had to go on for umpteen years following. Now that I look back on it I was in one of those highly controlled and skilled preaching sessions. I was whipped up along with the rest of the crowd. What I had there was a moment of mass hysteria participation. It was profound at the time though. But it was my brain becoming momentarily synchronized with the preacher. I suspect it was some extra shot of brain chemical or something.

 

Chemicals can screw with perception. I don't think it matters the source. Whether your brain makes 'em or whether Joe makes em in his mother's garage. It doesn't take much either, a tiny drop of acid on blotter paper made me see a store get up on pig legs and run off. It also gave me a super power. I could melt records (vinyl) with my bare hands into piles of goo. Maybe AM encountered some blotter paper dust in the restroom. But one thing his experience was not was a glimpse of heaven or something out there. All the glimpsing was in his head.

[Kuroikaze]

I see it differently, I believe the more abundant life stems from a perfect love that man cannot produce and "knowing" the reason for our journey.

 

This just seems like "original sin" dressed up a bit. In my opinion this is just sophistry, there is no such thing as "perfect love." We have enough problems defining the word love, much less defining the word perfect. it can't be produced because there is nothing to produce.

 

We don't need a god to teach us how to love each other, if we can't figure that out on our own we are all screwed.

 

I, for one, am glad a site like this exists, after I deconverted I was living in a very religious area, and this site let me know I wasn't alone.

 

 

This enables us to understand that when the tire goes flat on the way to grandma's house, it's ok, because when we get to grandma's there is a feast and love abounds.........the grandma being Christ in my scenerio.

 

I think you are missing the point AM has been trying to make. Why do you automatically assume that the reward is something that we get when we die? Or something we get from someone else? Why is that the first thing you keep jumping too? Perhaps you should think on this. For me, my reward is right here, right now, living life as well as I can, in this moment. To me it seems incredibly sad that one needs to have their existence justified by someone else (namely Christ) in order to feel any self worth.

[Paladin]

I have looked at many NDE's, and feel it is best to not go any further with my question because I can't really find any way of verifying any of these stories, as I see so many are so subjective that is is difficult to come to any concrete conclusions!

 

I wanted to chime into the current topic if I may...

 

I did find this website after my deconversion, which has been a good 10 years now, so it was in no way a path out of my pit.

 

I came to this site to see if I was alone in why I left and to see if I could find people that shared somewhat the experiences I had to endure.

 

I find it a bit ironic that I found that I am a more loving, kind person now than I ever was as a Christian,,but not really, the more I think of it, I was always a kind soul but it was never able to come out the way I wanted it to come out, because I was always "protecting" god!!!..(ugh)

 

My son that is a Christian, and at one time hated me, has now told me that now that he has really got to know me, he feels I have a huge, kind heart. As a matter of fact, he thinks I have too big of a heart, because I don't like the harsh theological stances of the bible, and it is because of not believing in eternal damnation, and a god who is angry enough to kill people, babies, women, allow rape etc...that I walked away from everything I ever knew, because it just did not add up!

 

peace

Paladin!

[Antlerman]

I find it a bit ironic that I found that I am a more loving, kind person now than I ever was as a Christian,,but not really, the more I think of it, I was always a kind soul but it was never able to come out the way I wanted it to come out, because I was always "protecting" god!!!..(ugh)

This is something I say all the time, and hear people say here regularily throughout my years on the site. The truly sad thing, is that I know that your most ardent so-called "beievers" will dismiss and deny this as not the genuine love that comes from God, on the basis that we don't believe the same doctrines as they do. I can feel such an overwhelming sadness at the blindness in their hearts and minds at this, and would say with all seriousness using their languge of God for their sake, that "the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehended it... He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him."

 

This expression speaks to the same thing, in how the "religious" put the worship of doctrines before the "God" they profess to seek, effectively blinding them to what is in front of them every day. Because they place their belief in the accuracy and importance of theology and doctrinal correctness as the highest importance through which to understand God, they fail to see "God" by demanding it follow their ideas. As a result, as they put their focus on doctrines they have "ears to hear but don't hear". This puts them into the same place as those in the story who said Jesus had a devil, to put a point on it.

 

For me it once I got rid of this focus through setting the whole thing on a shelf and just started living, it then that through that freedom, love was able to live. Again to use the language, it metaphorically was "being saved" and why I say that true salvation is salvation from religion. It's a "sin" to call light darkness. It's a sin against their own "souls" as they deny to themselves the love they profess to embrace.

 

Sorry... this just evokes a response in me and the language seems quite fitting to use in response.

[Paladin]

I find it a bit ironic that I found that I am a more loving, kind person now than I ever was as a Christian,,but not really, the more I think of it, I was always a kind soul but it was never able to come out the way I wanted it to come out, because I was always "protecting" god!!!..(ugh)

This is something I say all the time, and hear people say here regularily throughout my years on the site. The truly sad thing, is that I know that your most ardent so-called "beievers" will dismiss and deny this as not the genuine love that comes from God, on the basis that we don't believe the same doctrines as they do. I can feel such an overwhelming sadness at the blindness in their hearts and minds at this, and would say with all seriousness using their languge of God for their sake, that "the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehended it... He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him."

 

This expression speaks to the same thing, in how the "religious" put the worship of doctrines before the "God" they profess to seek, effectively blinding them to what is in front of them every day. Because they place their belief in the accuracy and importance of theology and doctrinal correctness as the highest importance through which to understand God, they fail to see "God" by demanding it follow their ideas. As a result, as they put their focus on doctrines they have "ears to hear but don't hear". This puts them into the same place as those in the story who said Jesus had a devil, to put a point on it.

 

For me it once I got rid of this focus through setting the whole thing on a shelf and just started living, it then that through that freedom, love was able to live. Again to use the language, it metaphorically was "being saved" and why I say that true salvation is salvation from religion. It's a "sin" to call light darkness. It's a sin against their own "souls" as they deny to themselves the love they profess to embrace.

 

Sorry... this just evokes a response in me and the language seems quite fitting to use in response.

 

Antlerman;

Very well put, Thanks!!!

 

I remember vividly the last few years as a Christian, how much I saw there were so many pompous, arrogant asses in the "church". I would find a kind, respectful atmosphere in a coffee house or a Barns and Noble book store more than I would at church, or a Christian book store etc..I love to read, so I would always go to a Christian book store to look for another book to read, and would leave feeling yucky as many times the people were rude and the atmosphere cold...

 

As an Assistant Pastor and a Youth Pastor of the Assemblies Of God, I would go to leadership conventions and be amazed at all the ministers that thought their crap didn't stink..The politics were so thick in the air you could cut it with a knife. I remember my pastor would take a load of $1 bills so it would look like he was always putting something in the offering plate

 

I remember one time I went to a new church and later found out someone was mad at me because I sat in their seat.

 

I will confess that I too had my times of being an ass, as I remember the time that my sister had an affair on her husband, then she came to my home and I shut the door on her because I did not want to feel I condoned her actions, when I should have seen that she was hurting and needed her big brother to show her love and kindness..

 

I think by what I experienced, I see what you are saying Antlerman, and you said it better than I could have!.....

 

Peace

Paladin!

[chefranden]

Well said, AM. I used to say it like this: "The scripture and doctrine are fingers pointing at God. It is my job to see God, not the fingers."

 

An obvious rip off on Zen.

 

I never manged to fulfill my job.

[Ouroboros]

Well said, AM. I used to say it like this: "The scripture and doctrine are fingers pointing at God. It is my job to see God, not the fingers."

 

An obvious rip off on Zen.

 

I never manged to fulfill my job.

Maybe because it was only the middle finger?

[chefranden]

Well said, AM. I used to say it like this: "The scripture and doctrine are fingers pointing at God. It is my job to see God, not the fingers."

 

An obvious rip off on Zen.

 

I never manged to fulfill my job.

Maybe because it was only the middle finger?

 

Seriously, I was too much of a prude to do that. But maybe you are talking about God?

[Guest end3]

There’s a number of things in this I’ll try to address. I don’t believe that abundant life comes from believing that at the end of the road there’s hot apple pie and a warm house to cuddle up in a big blanket. I believe in comes from recognizing the value and the beauty of now, of living in the moment. It’s a perception of beauty in the moment beyond distractions of fear. Even that flat tire can be taken in the context that all is good, because this is life and worth living, in the pleasant and unpleasant. We can find freedom in the realization that heaven and hell are matters of choice, they are matters of faith that aren’t dependent on circumstances. Not heaven after death, but heaven now. It’s all a matter of perception, a matter of faith (if you can understand that term outside the misuse in oh so many religious circles).

 

I don't disaprove of your philosophy, but people tend to get bogged down with the flat tires, and without something to look forward to, the flat tire becomes the focus.

 

Perfect love is ours, but it comes through our ability to see (“faith”) it now, not as a result of telling ourselves when we die all will be good. It’s not a case of coaxing a good feeling through saying all will be better some day. It’s embracing life in the moment.

 

Again, that's fine, but it's hard to achieve with defective neurons

 

I would hope I don’t come across as arrogant, but I know sometimes my style is taken that way by some. Trust me, it isn’t a matter of pride. It was the most humbling experience of my life, like standing before the grandeur of an infinite mountain range. You feel both insignificant, yet of priceless value before and as part of the whole of life. My point in asking this is that to someone who defines something like this in the terms of their cultural understand, probably finds it disconcerting to hear someone of the same culture define it otherwise. Again, I did go down that road initially, understanding it as such, but found it distracting to define it like this.

 

This is what frustrates me with you, not on a personal level, but on a spread the wealth level. Your description of being the part of a whole is what I envision as "in God" or Heaven, that I feel this is what happens when we die. I am sure it would be priceless as you say to experience this on earth for more than just brief glimpes of joy from your children or other examples that elude me at this time. The point being, don't get lost in the "this is outside of you and your menial belief systems". What the heck K? Why would you present your experience as this is outside of what you lost people are doing.

 

Again, damn it.

 

What I “saw”, was in me.

 

Sounds like communion to me...

 

As far as it giving me an answer… I’m chuckling respectfully at that. It hardly gave me an answer! On the contrary, it was the Question that began the quest I’m still on today. What it did was open me to possibility, to Beauty, to Love, to Life, to Peace, to Strength, to Grace, etc. It began my belief in Love. It spawned a longing in spirit for that wellspring of Life in me which is as alive today as it was then.

 

How could this be a question? Read your paragraph and let me know how this is a question...

 

Think about it K...

[Kuroikaze]

There’s a number of things in this I’ll try to address. I don’t believe that abundant life comes from believing that at the end of the road there’s hot apple pie and a warm house to cuddle up in a big blanket. I believe in comes from recognizing the value and the beauty of now, of living in the moment. It’s a perception of beauty in the moment beyond distractions of fear. Even that flat tire can be taken in the context that all is good, because this is life and worth living, in the pleasant and unpleasant. We can find freedom in the realization that heaven and hell are matters of choice, they are matters of faith that aren’t dependent on circumstances. Not heaven after death, but heaven now. It’s all a matter of perception, a matter of faith (if you can understand that term outside the misuse in oh so many religious circles).

 

I don't disaprove of your philosophy, but people tend to get bogged down with the flat tires, and without something to look forward to, the flat tire becomes the focus.

 

 

I could point out to you, again, that there are things in THIS life to look forward too, it need not be the next.

 

Instead let me ask you a question.

 

Do you think that people can be bogged down by religion? In fact, could a belief in the afterlife become a "flat tire" for many people. Do you think that perhaps for some people such a belief is actually a hindrance to living well? I have seen plenty of people, who are so focused on their belief in god, or the afterlife or whatever, that they cease to be of any use to anyone, even themselves.

 

Since you seem to be arguing that a belief in some kind of afterlife is needed to keep people happy and focused on living, I'm going to point out that this position seems rather arrogant.

In other words, you are assuming that everyone, or at least most people, need to hold a belief in an afterlife in order to "keep it together." Can you really pretend to speak for a faceless mass of people out there whom you have never met?

[Guest end3]

Do you think that people can be bogged down by religion? In fact, could a belief in the afterlife become a "flat tire" for many people. Do you think that perhaps for some people such a belief is actually a hindrance to living well? I have seen plenty of people, who are so focused on their belief in god, or the afterlife or whatever, that they cease to be of any use to anyone, even themselves.

 

I totally agree

 

Since you seem to be arguing that a belief in some kind of afterlife is needed to keep people happy and focused on living, I'm going to point out that this position seems rather arrogant.

In other words, you are assuming that everyone, or at least most people, need to hold a belief in an afterlife in order to "keep it together." Can you really pretend to speak for a faceless mass of people out there whom you have never met?

 

I will agree K, but it does not discount the method to which I am referring. Good point. I guess the point is, does Christ deliver love outside of humanity.

 

What was delivered to Antlerman?

[Antlerman]

Since you seem to be arguing that a belief in some kind of afterlife is needed to keep people happy and focused on living, I'm going to point out that this position seems rather arrogant.

 

In other words, you are assuming that everyone, or at least most people, need to hold a belief in an afterlife in order to "keep it together." Can you really pretend to speak for a faceless mass of people out there whom you have never met?

 

I will agree K, but it does not discount the method to which I am referring. Good point. I guess the point is, does Christ deliver love outside of humanity.

 

What was delivered to Antlerman?

You have very telling way of word choices. You ask it as "what was delivered" to me, exposing how you see this as the act of an outside agency. This is a very dualistic way of looking at things. I don't really see it as something "given" to me. It's more a matter of an opening up from within. It came from something inside of me, which I'll address shortly...

 

There’s a number of things in this I’ll try to address. I don’t believe that abundant life comes from believing that at the end of the road there’s hot apple pie and a warm house to cuddle up in a big blanket. I believe in comes from recognizing the value and the beauty of now, of living in the moment. It’s a perception of beauty in the moment beyond distractions of fear. Even that flat tire can be taken in the context that all is good, because this is life and worth living, in the pleasant and unpleasant. We can find freedom in the realization that heaven and hell are matters of choice, they are matters of faith that aren’t dependent on circumstances. Not heaven after death, but heaven now. It’s all a matter of perception, a matter of faith (if you can understand that term outside the misuse in oh so many religious circles).

 

I don't disaprove of your philosophy, but people tend to get bogged down with the flat tires, and without something to look forward to, the flat tire becomes the focus.

Getting overwhelmed by the troubles of life is of course what is seen as distraction from the path of fulfillment. As I've been talking about, and what Kuroikaze has been also saying, is that simply appeasing ones self that "things will get better" does little to making the situation at hand actually fulfilling, in itself. Simply coping, is not "living life abundantly". That's my concern about the perception of life after death making this like "tolerable", because you supposed have something to look forward to. Again, that's not "living life more abundantly", which is living life fully now, not in hope of a better tomorrow that "eases" the pain of today.

 

Though in difficult times we can console ourselves through having something to look forward to, that is merely a tool for coping, not for fulfillment. There's nothing wrong with finding a lifeline to get through a hard time, I'm not dismissing that. All I'm saying is that if that is ALL Christianity is offering to you or others, I would suggest they look at that. That's not living life abundantly.

 

 

Perfect love is ours, but it comes through our ability to see (“faith”) it now, not as a result of telling ourselves when we die all will be good. It’s not a case of coaxing a good feeling through saying all will be better some day. It’s embracing life in the moment.

 

Again, that's fine, but it's hard to achieve with defective neurons

Well.... if you mean you have some deficiency that prevents you from being happy, then that poses some interesting discussion. If you're talking about how can a philosophy help you if you're clinically depressed, meaning you have medical issues that cause you to see the world darkly, etc, then those are medical issues that need to be addressed first. Assuming you are healthy in mind, then you have a more even playing field on which to either build or retreat within when faced by life's challenges. (Although, I do tend to see the power of belief, or mindset, or outlook, to have profound impacts on our health. I'm a big believer in cognitive therapies in this regard). To tell ones self that the world is miserable and full of woe, is in itself creating misery. Then to look to some promise of having all tears wiped away once you're out of this pain-ridden world, seems a completely nasty self-inflicted wound and misplaced treatment for it!

 

That's my biggest problem with traditional orthodox, Augustinian based Christian teachings that man and the world is misery and death. Not all Christians saw things that way back when the Institution was deciding in their little meeting chambers exactly they wanted Christianity to teach (i.e., it was their word, not God's). This is the heart of the discussion Buddy Ferris, Alice, and I were attempting to discussion openly in our Arena debate (BTW, where did Buddy go off to in this current thread?). It's my belief it does far more good for humanity to look upon itself optimistically and build on that positive belief, rather than viewing themselves as filth and waste worthy of God's wrath, save for his mercy in saving us from our horrible selves. That does no good, IMO. It creates and illness, then pretends to sell the cure - which only is a temporary salve to ease the pain. That's what I'm hearing you say in hanging on to some promise of life after this misery. That's really sad. It shouldn't be the whole message. Yes, look with hope for a better tomorrow when your in the straights, but don't live like that! That's not a life where "rivers of living water" flow out of it. Is it?

 

This is what frustrates me with you, not on a personal level, but on a spread the wealth level. Your description of being the part of a whole is what I envision as "in God" or Heaven, that I feel this is what happens when we die. I am sure it would be priceless as you say to experience this on earth for more than just brief glimpes of joy from your children or other examples that elude me at this time. The point being, don't get lost in the "this is outside of you and your menial belief systems". What the heck K? Why would you present your experience as this is outside of what you lost people are doing.

 

Again, damn it.

I'm not entirely sure I follow you here, but I'll give it my best. By your frustration on a "spread the wealth level", are you saying essentially how come you don't have that too? If so, I don't mean to give the impression that I live my life every single moment in this state of wholeness. No, I have to deal with the world and myself. This is the dilemma of our humanness. We're both connected to the world around us, and trapped inside ourselves, looking outward. This creates that sense of dualism: of separation. That's what our myths are about, the story of the Fall of Man in the Garden, portrays this sense of separation of ourselves trying to connect with the world we observe and are part of, and which those around us: other humans. We are after all, all part of the same. We aren't many different humans, we are all human. We're also a part of the universe, not separated from it. We can see this, and more importantly we can sense it within. All the language of God, and the fall, and reconciliation, is all about this on its most basic level.

 

That I experienced something like that, frankly, getting back to how you perceived that as something "delivered to me", is something that I needed for where I was at. It's something that essentially I produced. I was at the end of myself, and everything was collapsing in on me. At the end of this heading into total blackness came the full opening to life out of death. Was it "God" that saved me, or me that saved me? Who cried for help? Me. I didn't want to die. I wanted to live. I found it. It was the world that had been perceived as outside and distant, as now inside me and me in it, present all around and throughout everything, living, full of love, full of life, full of peace and joy. Do I experience this everyday? No. That was a moment of awakening out of despair. Yet I can and do experience the nature of it in varying degrees depending on me, and my openness to it, which is the trick.

 

One of the reasons, a huge if not the singular reason behind my leaving Christianity is because it took my longing to embrace that essence of life as I experienced it, and actually hindered it by making proscriptions for appeasing this deity, adding a layer of expectations behind this "God" I encountered. It literally confused me at first because that was nothing whatsoever like what I experienced in my encountered, but I went with it because I wanted to understand it with my mind and to find direction for my life with this awareness. I was quite faithful in conforming my understanding to what I was being show in scripture. Yet in my spirit, what I knew in my heart in this experience of "God", all that doctrine and teachings about God didn't jibe. In fact as I tried to conform to the scriptural doctrines as was taught was essential to having a relationship with God, I found that connection in my spirit with "God" to be harmed, to become hindered and at broken through trying to reconcile my heart with the teachings I was supposed to conform to in my understanding of God.

 

But the heart won. Now the big trick was to try to allow myself to experience life in this way, and not have all these ideas of the religion threatening me with its fears about disobedience, about "being wrong", about being cast off by God and sent to hell. Here I saw the world in this deeply aesthetic, experiential, existential way, but didn't know how to relate myself to it without all that crap from the religion that laid claim to it. How could I "worship" the Beauty of life within my heart in that way without calling it "God" and hence dragging all that junk, human theology into it, making me feel like a hypocrite. I let Christianity and it's theologies own God. In fact I've come to see they themselves create that notion through the way they position the teachings to humans. They teach it as "orthodoxy", that they speak for God. Bullshit. They don't.

 

The point of this is that I've come to see that I can be free to be open to that Beauty that I know exists through discarding the doctrines of priests and embracing it as it is, not as others presume it to be and try to define it through church counsels. It's not found in doctrines, its found in the heart. And putting your mind and spirit in a place to be receptive to that is really what this is all about. Its in moving past concerns and worries, and our fears, and our dark imaginations, and the threats of religious priests, to simply being open to Beauty and embracing it. This to me is God. Not some external Accountant, but Life itself. There's no need to wait to die. That doesn't embrace "God", does it?

 

I'm not sure the rest of what you meant. If this doesn't address it you can ask me again.

 

 

As far as it giving me an answer… I’m chuckling respectfully at that. It hardly gave me an answer! On the contrary, it was the Question that began the quest I’m still on today. What it did was open me to possibility, to Beauty, to Love, to Life, to Peace, to Strength, to Grace, etc. It began my belief in Love. It spawned a longing in spirit for that wellspring of Life in me which is as alive today as it was then.

 

How could this be a question? Read your paragraph and let me know how this is a question...

 

Think about it K...

You misunderstood. I was saying that the experience wasn't finding the Answer, it was finding the Question. It started me on the quest to understand. It's what started me wanting to learn, to live, to grow, to be alive and to know love. The "Answer" is really the "Question". Living is moving forward, it's not a static answer.

[chefranden]

What was delivered to Antlerman?

 

From his description I would say a shot of oxytocin. It was given to him by his brain's chemical manufacturing bits. Perhaps he had a virus or some other brain glitch from the end of adolescence that limited the production of oxytocin an/or serotonin and he experienced as a result the period of no meaning. When the production resumed the sudden relief was very memorable -- kind of like that bit of time when the really bad headache goes away.

 

I suffer from clinical depression due to PTSD. I struggled with it for years and considered it a thorn that I had to bear, like Paul.

 

I had a bad episode in 2000 and the VA sent me to the nut house in Saint Cloud MN. There they persuaded me to take a drug for it. The drug makes serotonin more available to brain cells. After it started working, I felt like I'd died and gone to heaven. I was giddy with happiness and good will. Everything seem sparkling and new. That feeling lasted about two weeks. If I had still been a believer, I might have ascribed the feeling to God's love or some such rot and spent the rest of my life pondering it and wondering how to get it back.

 

Once I got used to feeling better the giddiness went away.

[Antlerman]

What was delivered to Antlerman?

 

From his description I would say a shot of oxytocin. It was given to him by his brain's chemical manufacturing bits. Perhaps he had a virus or some other brain glitch from the end of adolescence that limited the production of oxytocin an/or serotonin and he experienced as a result the period of no meaning. When the production resumed the sudden relief was very memorable -- kind of like that bit of time when the really bad headache goes away.

Not to get into any debate about it, as I won't, but it really wasn't something like the relief one feels when a thorn in the side is removed. Though I understand what you're looking at and how that can be significant, and I do think there was obviously some chemical release, it was far more life crisis oriented than a sudden release of chemicals out of nowhere. The best terms are that of an Existential Crisis.

 

Existential crisis resembles anomie (a sociological concept), the mid-life crisis is an example. Usually, an existential crisis stems from the person's accurate perception of existence, i.e. Life is what it is.

 

In a non-existential belief system — religion (usually) — the essence of what it means to be a human being is mostly believed to have been defined before birth, usually by a supernatural being or supernatural beings. Typically, a lack of religious faith is prerequisite for suffering an existential crisis: the sudden awareness of not knowing the meaning and purpose of one's life, and consequent awareness of impending, inevitable, personal doom.

 

Cognitive dissonance occurs when the man or woman faces the paradox of believing his or her life important, whilst perceiving that human existence is meaningless and without purpose. The person's resolving said paradox results in the existential crisis. For some people, a resolution to this crisis is the aggregation of religious beliefs into their personal existence.

Analogously, existentialism posits that a person can and does define the meaning and purpose of his or her life, hence must choose to resolve the crisis of existence.

 

Existential crisis is provoked by a significant event in the person's life — marriage, the death of a loved one; a life-threatening experience; psycho-active drug use; adult children leaving home; reaching a personally-significant age (turning 30, turning 40, etc.); imprisonment in solitary confinement, et cetera. Usually, it provokes the sufferer's introspection about personal mortality, thus revealing the psychologic repression of said awareness.

Though clearly chemicals do come into play when one is faltering downward emotionally/psychologically, its more a result of the events and the resulting responses cognitively that drive someone into the pit of despair. It's really in that state where I was at when this "existential experience" occurred. It's not an uncommon theme, by any means, and what really is at the heart of the existential philosophy. In great many ways, some forms of Christianity are based on existentialism for this reason (not your Evangelical fare by any means, but philosophers like Kierkegaard).

 

It's the essence of the experience of life coming out of crisis that bears great significance on meaning and identity to the person undergoing the crisis. Which is why I likened it to the insights gained by those in say, Peyote cultures who's vehicle to insight is through creating a "moving beyond oneself", a sort of transcendental experience. Is it a chemical that produces the effect. Sure, I wouldn't dispute that. Is it what caused it to happen in my case? You would also have to say that a chemical issue caused the crisis in the first place, which it can't be said it did.

 

The problem for me was that at the time it happened, the time that the world opened to me (as a result of my will to live and not be consumed), the first person I told about it told me that that was "God", and being a part of my culture exposed to the idea of God it seemed the correct thing to do to go to a minister to talk to about it. So as I talked about at length above, it was trying to pursue God theologically that led me into frustration, and anywhere but closer to that place of peace and life in my life.

 

What that experience was, was me. It was what was in me that desired life. I saved me. I saved me by desiring life. Life saved me by drawing me to live. What was possible was manifest through me and for me and by me and from life for that end. It the potential in life that saved me. It was life, and me seeking life that manifest the world to me for me for life. (I don't know an easy way to describe this). I just made the error of looking for answers, as opposed to listening to the heart that saved me in the first place and simply living. I met God, I met me and found life, and that's something that I haven't quit trying to find and realize and embrace.

 

It's so sad that belief in life like this that gets called "God" is made into a social institution. It harms the experience. I guess you could call me an Atheist Existentialist Mystic. What really is "God" anyway?

[Guest end3]

Getting overwhelmed by the troubles of life is of course what is seen as distraction from the path of fulfillment. As I've been talking about, and what Kuroikaze has been also saying, is that simply appeasing ones self that "things will get better" does little to making the situation at hand actually fulfilling, in itself. Simply coping, is not "living life abundantly". That's my concern about the perception of life after death making this like "tolerable", because you supposed have something to look forward to. Again, that's not "living life more abundantly", which is living life fully now, not in hope of a better tomorrow that "eases" the pain of today.

 

Please know I am understanding your point, but again, there is more than one way to look at this. I don't particularly relish abundant life as being strapped for money, in ill health, a faulty automobile, a termite eaten house that lets the cold north wind through. I grant you there are things that are valuable about these experiences, but I don't value them as abundant life.

 

Though in difficult times we can console ourselves through having something to look forward to, that is merely a tool for coping, not for fulfillment. There's nothing wrong with finding a lifeline to get through a hard time, I'm not dismissing that. All I'm saying is that if that is ALL Christianity is offering to you or others, I would suggest they look at that. That's not living life abundantly.

 

I don't believe that is all I am saying.

 

Then to look to some promise of having all tears wiped away once you're out of this pain-ridden world, seems a completely nasty self-inflicted wound and misplaced treatment for it!

 

Apparently you had an experience that helped you, so why deny another a helping experience.

 

That's my biggest problem with traditional orthodox, Augustinian based Christian teachings that man and the world is misery and death. Not all Christians saw things that way back when the Institution was deciding in their little meeting chambers exactly they wanted Christianity to teach (i.e., it was their word, not God's). This is the heart of the discussion Buddy Ferris, Alice, and I were attempting to discussion openly in our Arena debate (BTW, where did Buddy go off to in this current thread?). It's my belief it does far more good for humanity to look upon itself optimistically and build on that positive belief, rather than viewing themselves as filth and waste worthy of God's wrath, save for his mercy in saving us from our horrible selves.

 

I agree, but there is no doubt that life holds ample amounts of anguish caused by humanity, regardless of philosophy.

 

That does no good, IMO. It creates and illness, then pretends to sell the cure - which only is a temporary salve to ease the pain. That's what I'm hearing you say in hanging on to some promise of life after this misery. That's really sad. It shouldn't be the whole message. Yes, look with hope for a better tomorrow when your in the straights, but don't live like that! That's not a life where "rivers of living water" flow out of it. Is it?

 

What is your take on that phrase? To me it is mostly life and love.

 

I'm not entirely sure I follow you here, but I'll give it my best. By your frustration on a "spread the wealth level", are you saying essentially how come you don't have that too? If so, I don't mean to give the impression that I live my life every single moment in this state of wholeness. No, I have to deal with the world and myself. This is the dilemma of our humanness. We're both connected to the world around us, and trapped inside ourselves, looking outward. This creates that sense of dualism: of separation. That's what our myths are about, the story of the Fall of Man in the Garden, portrays this sense of separation of ourselves trying to connect with the world we observe and are part of, and which those around us: other humans. We are after all, all part of the same. We aren't many different humans, we are all human. We're also a part of the universe, not separated from it. We can see this, and more importantly we can sense it within. All the language of God, and the fall, and reconciliation, is all about this on its most basic level.

 

I hear you, I just disagree somewhat. I see the separation being real and only temporarily penatrateable by living as you say. I think these temporary and fleeting moments give us a glimpse of what we are separated from, or otherwise more would be fulfilled. No? You stated that you are unable to live in this state of wholeness all the time....I feel like this is the crux of our discussion. Please correct me if need be, as I did not participate in your experience, but paraphrasing, the bible talks about Jesus in us as God is in Him, until we are in Him, if I am remembering correctly. So to me your experience was from the outside as something that you did not recognize as you was now a part of you. Jesus perhaps, as the description somewhat matches? Now, as Jesus or the HS, how is it not possible that this is not just a glimpse of what it means to be "in God"....and here is the key point, in God being an entity that is encompassing, encompassing as in stepping into a rhelm of this wholeness that you speak of....the constant light, the constant love,........how can you speak of that now other than in part?

 

That I experienced something like that, frankly, getting back to how you perceived that as something "delivered to me", is something that I needed for where I was at. It's something that essentially I produced. I was at the end of myself, and everything was collapsing in on me. At the end of this heading into total blackness came the full opening to life out of death. Was it "God" that saved me, or me that saved me? Who cried for help? Me. I didn't want to die. I wanted to live. I found it. It was the world that had been perceived as outside and distant, as now inside me and me in it, present all around and throughout everything, living, full of love, full of life, full of peace and joy. Do I experience this everyday? No. That was a moment of awakening out of despair. Yet I can and do experience the nature of it in varying degrees depending on me, and my openness to it, which is the trick

.

 

I rest my case.

 

One of the reasons, a huge if not the singular reason behind my leaving Christianity is because it took my longing to embrace that essence of life as I experienced it, and actually hindered it by making proscriptions for appeasing this deity, adding a layer of expectations behind this "God" I encountered. It literally confused me at first because that was nothing whatsoever like what I experienced in my encountered, but I went with it because I wanted to understand it with my mind and to find direction for my life with this awareness. I was quite faithful in conforming my understanding to what I was being show in scripture. Yet in my spirit, what I knew in my heart in this experience of "God", all that doctrine and teachings about God didn't jibe. In fact as I tried to conform to the scriptural doctrines as was taught was essential to having a relationship with God, I found that connection in my spirit with "God" to be harmed, to become hindered and at broken through trying to reconcile my heart with the teachings I was supposed to conform to in my understanding of God.

 

I don't mean to be rude, but who doesn't AM? If you can go to church and find nothing wrong in the Spirit, then woe to you friend.

 

But the heart won. Now the big trick was to try to allow myself to experience life in this way, and not have all these ideas of the religion threatening me with its fears about disobedience, about "being wrong", about being cast off by God and sent to hell. Here I saw the world in this deeply aesthetic, experiential, existential way, but didn't know how to relate myself to it without all that crap from the religion that laid claim to it. How could I "worship" the Beauty of life within my heart in that way without calling it "God" and hence dragging all that junk, human theology into it, making me feel like a hypocrite. I let Christianity and it's theologies own God. In fact I've come to see they themselves create that notion through the way they position the teachings to humans. They teach it as "orthodoxy", that they speak for God. Bullshit. They don't.

 

I think that is bold....I myself am still afraid of hell. I had a dream as a child about hell. I don't want to participate if it is real.

 

The point of this is that I've come to see that I can be free to be open to that Beauty that I know exists through discarding the doctrines of priests and embracing it as it is, not as others presume it to be and try to define it through church counsels. It's not found in doctrines, its found in the heart. And putting your mind and spirit in a place to be receptive to that is really what this is all about. Its in moving past concerns and worries, and our fears, and our dark imaginations, and the threats of religious priests, to simply being open to Beauty and embracing it. This to me is God. Not some external Accountant, but Life itself. There's no need to wait to die. That doesn't embrace "God", does it?

 

I can see your point but there is a lot of humanity between here and there.

[Guest end3]

What was delivered to Antlerman?

 

From his description I would say a shot of oxytocin. It was given to him by his brain's chemical manufacturing bits. Perhaps he had a virus or some other brain glitch from the end of adolescence that limited the production of oxytocin an/or serotonin and he experienced as a result the period of no meaning. When the production resumed the sudden relief was very memorable -- kind of like that bit of time when the really bad headache goes away.

 

I suffer from clinical depression due to PTSD. I struggled with it for years and considered it a thorn that I had to bear, like Paul.

 

I had a bad episode in 2000 and the VA sent me to the nut house in Saint Cloud MN. There they persuaded me to take a drug for it. The drug makes serotonin more available to brain cells. After it started working, I felt like I'd died and gone to heaven. I was giddy with happiness and good will. Everything seem sparkling and new. That feeling lasted about two weeks. If I had still been a believer, I might have ascribed the feeling to God's love or some such rot and spent the rest of my life pondering it and wondering how to get it back.

 

Once I got used to feeling better the giddiness went away.

 

Certainly a possiblity that I regard, having taken some antidepressants here lately. I would not have given them credit, but now my wife considers me tolerable, so I would say I hold this view as plausable.

[Antlerman]

Please know I am understanding your point, but again, there is more than one way to look at this. I don't particularly relish abundant life as being strapped for money, in ill health, a faulty automobile, a termite eaten house that lets the cold north wind through. I grant you there are things that are valuable about these experiences, but I don't value them as abundant life.

I am sympathetic, and I did say I don’t mean to discount the idea of believing in a better tomorrow to help one cope with the less than pleasant circumstances. I don’t discount its value. The real heart of this however is to find value and beauty in life no matter the circumstances. Without that, we can fall into despair, and its that which looses sight of that “energy” if you will, that draws us to live. Life is in hope. Not so much in the promise of relief from pain, but in the beauty of life itself. Life for life’s sake. Your life for the sake of life. It’s not so much about being happy, as it is knowing love and peace.

 

Frankly, its very easy for me to launch off into quoting Bible verses that expose these things. I may well do so for the sake of communicating. What do you think “worshipping God” is for? Him and his ego, or is that an injunction for our sake by those mystics who saw the value of seeing beyond ourselves and circumstances to the value and beauty of life? I see it this way.

 

Apparently you had an experience that helped you, so why deny another a helping experience.

I’m not sure what you mean. Are you seeing me denying someone a helping experience? I really wouldn’t do that if I recognized it as such. As I’ve said many times, I’ve seen who deeply believe in God, but I also something in them which I would never, ever dream of interfering with by saying what they see in their belief in God, in the language of their traditions, is a “pack of lies”. No. That to me would be a sin. It would be denying what I see as important, and the language someone uses to express that or get to that point is hugely secondary and mostly unimportant by comparison to the fruits. Likewise they create a way to get there, and its what’s in them, that I recognize. If I do take issue, is usually in seeing the direction its taking someone. It doesn’t matter to me if someone believes in God or not. I’ve only taken issue here because I believe there is something more to living that just hanging on to a hope things will get better.

 

I agree, but there is no doubt that life holds ample amounts of anguish caused by humanity, regardless of philosophy.

To be sure, but that doesn’t define our basic nature. I believe our basic nature is to be good. After all, we are supposed to be created in the image of God, no?

 

That does no good, IMO. It creates and illness, then pretends to sell the cure - which only is a temporary salve to ease the pain. That's what I'm hearing you say in hanging on to some promise of life after this misery. That's really sad. It shouldn't be the whole message. Yes, look with hope for a better tomorrow when your in the straights, but don't live like that! That's not a life where "rivers of living water" flow out of it. Is it?

 

What is your take on that phrase? To me it is mostly life and love.

Wow, you know that verse was actually one that I looked at almost every day while I was in Bible College, hoping to find that in my life while I was in the midst of the Scribes wrangling over the verses of the Bible in an effort to define themselves (as opposed to pursuing the virtues of love and the spirit), the essence of that that I knew experientially – prior to my turning to Christianity to explain it to me.

 

I hesitate almost going there talking about it as this could sound like a Bible study, however… that said… from my views philosophically, aesthetically, humanistically, existentially, poetically…. Damn… it’s hard to do this. Alright... begging some allowance from others...

 

I’ve talked about this before, my first sermon. The one I said is the only one which ever needs to be preached. The two great commandments: Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets”. What this means in a nutshell, is that our focus needs to be first on our relationship with God (define this as looking to the beautiful in life, to the life-giving energy of existence, to set your mind on Love, to embrace it, to let it live in you, to allow yourself to see past your circumstances and find Beauty in existence, to “worship” it as it were in holding and embracing it as the highest value of living). Through that “relationship”, through that primary focus and exercise, our lives become filled with that and naturally move outward from us to others. In this action, we let life, love, or “God” into the world through us, and our actions will naturally reflect this.

 

There is no need to try to follow the rules. We simply just act in love because we are filled with love. “Love is the fulfilling of the law”. “Love works no ill”. If we love someone, we will not lie, cheat, steal, covet, or kill. It all comes through our relationship with “God” (defined as above). So the “rivers of living water flowing out of their bellies”, is essentially this. It’s letting love live in you and through you, as almost a vessel. It was this experience of love flowing out of me that I experience in my opening up to the world. I understand all this as metaphorical expressions of this existential, aesthetic experience of life. Christianity and its language is really just various ways of talking about this (of course mashed together with a bunch of other not quite so noble bits – another discussion).

 

And so in this context, “abundant life” is just that.

 

I'm not entirely sure I follow you here, but I'll give it my best. By your frustration on a "spread the wealth level", are you saying essentially how come you don't have that too? If so, I don't mean to give the impression that I live my life every single moment in this state of wholeness. No, I have to deal with the world and myself. This is the dilemma of our humanness. We're both connected to the world around us, and trapped inside ourselves, looking outward. This creates that sense of dualism: of separation. That's what our myths are about, the story of the Fall of Man in the Garden, portrays this sense of separation of ourselves trying to connect with the world we observe and are part of, and which those around us: other humans. We are after all, all part of the same. We aren't many different humans, we are all human. We're also a part of the universe, not separated from it. We can see this, and more importantly we can sense it within. All the language of God, and the fall, and reconciliation, is all about this on its most basic level.

 

I hear you, I just disagree somewhat. I see the separation being real and only temporarily penatrateable by living as you say. I think these temporary and fleeting moments give us a glimpse of what we are separated from, or otherwise more would be fulfilled. No? You stated that you are unable to live in this state of wholeness all the time....I feel like this is the crux of our discussion. Please correct me if need be, as I did not participate in your experience, but paraphrasing, the bible talks about Jesus in us as God is in Him, until we are in Him, if I am remembering correctly. So to me your experience was from the outside as something that you did not recognize as you was now a part of you. Jesus perhaps, as the description somewhat matches? Now, as Jesus or the HS, how is it not possible that this is not just a glimpse of what it means to be "in God"....and here is the key point, in God being an entity that is encompassing, encompassing as in stepping into a rhelm of this wholeness that you speak of....the constant light, the constant love,........how can you speak of that now other than in part?

Oh boy this gets murky now. Yikes, you don’t make this easy.

 

It’s not easy to explain. This is why you have the language you do in scripture, or at the least it becomes a way to express it symbolically, metaphorically; “God in you”, etc. When I hear these words, I hear certain principles being expressed, not actual Beings in actual deeds and roles. The principles I understand, I just resist these things being actual beings. The line gets really blurred in seeing them as expressions of experienced realties.

 

Ok, let’s explore the idea of this being external. That God is external, that we sense we are separated from something, thus making it external to us, that this somehow is reflective of reality on some metaphysical level. Truthfully, this is the first time I’ve attempted to explore this, and I’m certain there are others who can express this more succinctly. I would say that all in all, it’s a phenomenon of our humanity, of how we approach relating to the world and others through our senses; a product that creates a language of dualism, of us and the other, which acts as a feedback loop enforcing this sense of separateness. It’s true that others cultures don’t see the world in so strictly dualist ways as we in the West do, and that would it seem have to do with how they approach things, the language they use for instance. Some cultures have easier times with notions such as quantum mechanics because of how their language doesn’t see time in linear ways such as ours does. Same sort of principle here.

 

So what is the language of the Bible, but a way to express a “reconciliation”, the concepts of Oneness, of “Christ in you”, a way to look at life beyond the dualistic language of separation? I would say so. In short, some cultures have no need for a Christ, because they don’t see themselves in the light we do. Our sense of “outside” us is a matter of perceptions, not reality. And that’s the point. We create our sense of separation through many ways. It’s all in perception, its all in language. Faith then, is really a matter of retraining ones thoughts to see “God”, to see reconciliation.

 

Could I use the language above that you said to describe my experience. Yes. Does that mean that all the theology from that culture represents a reality that is both eternal and infallible in its descriptions? Hardly, no. They are expressions of humans – humans who were doing what I am doing here; of trying to find certain significance of themselves in their world. These sorts of expressions are seen throughout many cultures all following the same “angst” in themselves driven by social and political circumstances.

 

The truth of the matter is, the Gospel message is not single story, it’s an amalgam of many perceptions and schools of thought evolved over time and cultures and regions with their own circumstances, formed and shaped by later redactors into a very human expression using the language of philosophy and myth to communicate. In these things, it does have value as it’s all driven by the same humanity as is in you and me today.

 

I don't mean to be rude, but who doesn't AM? If you can go to church and find nothing wrong in the Spirit, then woe to you friend.

The problem is when it hinders you in your “walk with God” to use that language. It didn’t help me find God. Ironically, becoming an atheist did. Ponder that conundrum.

 

But the heart won. Now the big trick was to try to allow myself to experience life in this way, and not have all these ideas of the religion threatening me with its fears about disobedience, about "being wrong", about being cast off by God and sent to hell. Here I saw the world in this deeply aesthetic, experiential, existential way, but didn't know how to relate myself to it without all that crap from the religion that laid claim to it. How could I "worship" the Beauty of life within my heart in that way without calling it "God" and hence dragging all that junk, human theology into it, making me feel like a hypocrite. I let Christianity and it's theologies own God. In fact I've come to see they themselves create that notion through the way they position the teachings to humans. They teach it as "orthodoxy", that they speak for God. Bullshit. They don't.

 

I think that is bold....I myself am still afraid of hell. I had a dream as a child about hell. I don't want to participate if it is real.

Really, sincerely, that breaks my heart to hear that. Long ago, I had to face what my heart was telling me and consoled myself in launching off away from what I was told was the truth by saying to myself, “If this is the truth of God it will stand to examination, and I do so out of integrity in my heart to honor God by desiring to know him in truth. I have no choice but to believe God will judge the intentions and integrity of my heart”. To me to live in fear, is in fact to NOT believe. To not want to look God in the face, is to show him dishonor. You’re supposed to be reconciled, right?

 

As far as hell goes, let me tell you in no uncertain terms, in my experience of “God”, the concept of hell is so utterly foreign and vile to the spirit of love, of peace and compassion I felt in every fiber of my being. The idea of being sent to a burning hell of torture by a God that has all that as its very nature, is obscene. That was one of the notions that kept me from being able to fully love God. In fact, there are quite of number of Christians who reject that notion for that very reason, and that in scripture it is in fact disputable.

 

What’s hell done for you? Anything good? Is that from God then?

 

My stance is bold. It’s confidence in the spirit of love. It’s in that I stand and rest.

 

 

P.S. It's been nice spending Christmas day in discussion with you. FWIW, Merry Christmas.