Afterlife Thoughts!

[chefranden]

With all due respect AM, I find irony in that you hold a moderator position here. I am not understanding....if you are unclear about you position, why you would take a position to lead people in a direction. I can understand if the job description is to comfort people that have been hurt or don't believe in Christianity, but how is it love to lead people other than to love. If I in good faith lead thirsty people to a dry well, it's still dry....and now that I think about it, that would be the fundamental flaw with this site.

 

Well you see right there is the rub. Leading people to religion is leading them to a dry well. At least AM has the integrity to admit that he doesn't where the wet well is.

 

What we have here is a community of people that have the guts to say, "the biblegod's well is dry." In fact it is so dry that it can suck the juice right out of you, if you are not careful. You still think you are going to find water in it if only you have faith and perseverance -- meanwhile making up stories about how great the water is.

 

In all probability there is no wet well. There is only the love you can give and get among family and friends. If you don't have it there you won't have it at all. Woe to those who set aside the love of family and friends to pursue a guy 2000 years dead (if he ever actually lived). Look for your love among the living.

[Guest end3]

With all due respect AM, I find irony in that you hold a moderator position here. I am not understanding....if you are unclear about you position, why you would take a position to lead people in a direction. I can understand if the job description is to comfort people that have been hurt or don't believe in Christianity, but how is it love to lead people other than to love. If I in good faith lead thirsty people to a dry well, it's still dry....and now that I think about it, that would be the fundamental flaw with this site.

 

Well you see right there is the rub. Leading people to religion is leading them to a dry well. At least AM has the integrity to admit that he doesn't where the wet well is.

 

What we have here is a community of people that have the guts to say, "the biblegod's well is dry." In fact it is so dry that it can suck the juice right out of you, if you are not careful. You still think you are going to find water in it if only you have faith and perseverance -- meanwhile making up stories about how great the water is.

 

In all probability there is no wet well. There is only the love you can give and get among family and friends. If you don't have it there you won't have it at all. Woe to those who set aside the love of family and friends to pursue a guy 2000 years dead (if he ever actually lived). Look for your love among the living.

 

 

Lol Chef,

 

Although I loved the comments, there is little to argue here....

[BuddyFerris]

... Again, religion fails to go far enough to talk to this. At its best, it offers some language to express it, but to define its nature in supernatural or theological terms is to diminish it and make it become almost its own thing, a substitute for it. What I'm doing is trying to look at it objectively, to see the "God" behind God, so to speak. Religion is a product of that. Not the end, End.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you, AM, although we may not be talking about precisely the same thing. My experience with religionists across a fair spectrum of doctrinal extremes has been uniformly unsatisfying. So often, we're offered ridiculously simple answers to unfathomable issues, and the issues are then, as you describe, diminished; replaced by an inadequate substitute.

 

So having agreed to abandon the religious answers... is there room for a little casual conversation on the subject? Apart from Christianity's explanation, are there larger answers than 'it doesn't happen'?

 

Buddy

[Antlerman]

With all due respect AM, I find irony in that you hold a moderator position here. I am not understanding....if you are unclear about you position, why you would take a position to lead people in a direction. I can understand if the job description is to comfort people that have been hurt or don't believe in Christianity, but how is it love to lead people other than to love. If I in good faith lead thirsty people to a dry well, it's still dry....and now that I think about it, that would be the fundamental flaw with this site.

Well, two things. First, I’m not unclear about my position. I hold to open possibilities, yet within mostly a framework of rational understanding: which to me incorporates both the strengths of reason and of spirit (or ideals, aesthetics, aspirations, emotions, to define that word). That I don’t hold to a strictly materialistic philosophy does not disqualify me as a moderator on this site. We’ve had moderators who are in fact theistic, though I don’t consider myself that.

 

The only qualification, really, is that Webmaster Dave feels that we as individuals serve the community in our own styles. There is no “tenant of ExChristian philosophy” here that anyone is beholden to promote and support, except for providing an environment for everyone sorting out the mess in their lives left behind from the taters of their experiences within the religion. There is no mission to lead anyone to anything. What I do in here in my posts, frankly are for me. That others may benefit is the nature of what makes this community a special one, one that I’m glad I have the benefit of participating in. If I help others as I sort out my own personal quest for my “holy grail”, that’s a great reward. It’s not my function here to “save” anyone. Everyone has to find their own path. As do you.

 

... Again, religion fails to go far enough to talk to this. At its best, it offers some language to express it, but to define its nature in supernatural or theological terms is to diminish it and make it become almost its own thing, a substitute for it. What I'm doing is trying to look at it objectively, to see the "God" behind God, so to speak. Religion is a product of that. Not the end, End.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you, AM, although we may not be talking about precisely the same thing. My experience with religionists across a fair spectrum of doctrinal extremes has been uniformly unsatisfying. So often, we're offered ridiculously simple answers to unfathomable issues, and the issues are then, as you describe, diminished; replaced by an inadequate substitute.

 

So having agreed to abandon the religious answers... is there room for a little casual conversation on the subject? Apart from Christianity's explanation, are there larger answers than 'it doesn't happen'?

 

Buddy

Of course there is. I would enjoy that. I may even try to leave room for the “slap on the back” approach, although I always prefer keeping the focus on the matter at hand. If we’ve enjoyed a few beers together first, then you can chide me. So what topic you have in mind? This one? Life after death? The meaning of belief? Would you prefer a more casual discussion in the Coliseum?

[chefranden]

Lol Chef,

 

Although I loved the comments, there is little to argue here....

 

Damn straight, there ain't nothing to argue. I gives the straight dope.

[BuddyFerris]

...

 

So having agreed to abandon the religious answers... is there room for a little casual conversation on the subject? Apart from Christianity's explanation, are there larger answers than 'it doesn't happen'?

 

Buddy

Of course there is. I would enjoy that. I may even try to leave room for the “slap on the back” approach, although I always prefer keeping the focus on the matter at hand. If we’ve enjoyed a few beers together first, then you can chide me. So what topic you have in mind? This one? Life after death? The meaning of belief? Would you prefer a more casual discussion in the Coliseum?

Feel free to drop by for a beer or two, my treat.

I managed on a business trip to the west coast last year to meet for lunch w/one of the Ex-C folks. He had real reservations about meeting at all with an outsider, but came anyway. Nice guy; had a great time. Face to face seems somehow a bit more real, perhaps.

I'll pass on the coliseum debate for now, thanks. If opposition and discussion were to provoke genuine progress, the world would be full of saints by now. Our own experience there didn't endear us to one another, and sometimes I question if we served each other well in any fashion by the effort. Perhaps later, down the road a bit.

 

Paladin opened the question of NDE in the context of life apart from the tightly coupled body/mind/machine concept with which we are all familiar. I'm curious what the possibilities there might be. Thoughts?

 

Buddy

[Antlerman]

...

 

So having agreed to abandon the religious answers... is there room for a little casual conversation on the subject? Apart from Christianity's explanation, are there larger answers than 'it doesn't happen'?

 

Buddy

Of course there is. I would enjoy that. I may even try to leave room for the “slap on the back” approach, although I always prefer keeping the focus on the matter at hand. If we’ve enjoyed a few beers together first, then you can chide me. So what topic you have in mind? This one? Life after death? The meaning of belief? Would you prefer a more casual discussion in the Coliseum?

Feel free to drop by for a beer or two, my treat.

I managed on a business trip to the west coast last year to meet for lunch w/one of the Ex-C folks. He had real reservations about meeting at all with an outsider, but came anyway. Nice guy; had a great time. Face to face seems somehow a bit more real, perhaps.

I'll pass on the coliseum debate for now, thanks. If opposition and discussion were to provoke genuine progress, the world would be full of saints by now. Our own experience there didn't endear us to one another, and sometimes I question if we served each other well in any fashion by the effort. Perhaps later, down the road a bit.

I was simply offering the Coliseum discussion in response to your asking if I was open to a casual conversation. The Coliseum is a more casual venue outside the Lion’s Den where discussion can get overwhelmed sometimes with distractions. It was a gesture in favor of your suggestion, since I know you didn’t care for the more formal style. The Lion’s Den works as well for that in some cases.

 

Paladin opened the question of NDE in the context of life apart from the tightly coupled body/mind/machine concept with which we are all familiar. I'm curious what the possibilities there might be. Thoughts?

 

Buddy

As far as the points raised in the OP, to me these are anecdotal evidences, which are more novelties as fuel for discussion, as opposed to something that sheds any sort of evidential light on a possible reality. How someone “saw” their recently dead relative that they had no knowledge of is explainable in other more natural ways, just as it is with psychic readers and the like.

 

I offered my own experience as another look at it, which some could take as evidence of something supernatural, but my discussion of it was to offer other ways to perceive and understand it which fit more nicely into our living reality, while at the same time elevating it as inspirational and important (as opposed to just dismissing it out of hand as the product of just a bad piece of cheese, so to speak).

 

To some points you raised in your other post we didn’t talk about:

 

... Again, religion fails to go far enough to talk to this. At its best, it offers some language to express it, but to define its nature in supernatural or theological terms is to diminish it and make it become almost its own thing, a substitute for it. What I'm doing is trying to look at it objectively, to see the "God" behind God, so to speak. Religion is a product of that. Not the end, End.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you, AM, although we may not be talking about precisely the same thing. My experience with religionists across a fair spectrum of doctrinal extremes has been uniformly unsatisfying. So often, we're offered ridiculously simple answers to unfathomable issues, and the issues are then, as you describe, diminished; replaced by an inadequate substitute.

 

So having agreed to abandon the religious answers... is there room for a little casual conversation on the subject? Apart from Christianity's explanation, are there larger answers than 'it doesn't happen'?

 

Buddy

Yes there are larger answers, IMO. That’s what I’ve been addressing in response to my experience. Call it an existential experience. It’s one that serves for us to confront something within ourselves that we seem drawn to exploit for “spiritual” reasons. Did I meet “God”? In a sense of the word, yes I did. What “that” is, is the truly interesting question. I can tell you that though I subsequently looked for "that" in the context of Christian beliefs, it was elusively living elsewhere, refusing to be limited by all of that, much to my disconsternation at the time.

 

I’m more than open to exploring understandings of “God”, or that quality of life and existence that goes beyond the mundane - or theologies. I hear you saying you see something more than the petty offerings of the literalist, but I question just how far from the book you are willing to explore that “impression”. You see, too often I see the patina of the Christian narrative Gospels and traditional later church doctrines (such as Augustinian theology), coloring and influencing that exploration with its limits.

 

If you’re willing to look at it, I’d be curious to see how beholden you to your own ideas influenced by all that? To me that’s an interesting test. That’s what I was trying to get at in our discussion in the Arena, and I’m sorry it fell apart at that time. It’s a fascinating topic I’d love to dig into with you. I’m happy to try it in this context. I’m curious how unconventional you really are in your take on all of this, as you seem to indicate above that you are.

 

P.S. I’m rather fond of the Koningshoven Quadruple Trappist ale. At 10 percent alcohol content, a few of those on tap ought to make the discussion more interesting.

[Antlerman]

I can understand if the job description is to comfort people that have been hurt or don't believe in Christianity, but how is it love to lead people other than to love.

I want to come back to this as it escaped my notice the first time around. How is it construed by you that leaving Christianity, that looking for answers elsewhere is to lead people to anything "other than to love"? After all this time here, and you still characterize us as unloving, or pursuing selfish, unloving lusts or something? What's the matter with you? Are you unable to recognize it if you see it outside where you expect to see it? You think we don't know the essence of love if we aren't pledging fidelity to the Bible? If so, that's sad for you. I'd say you don't know love then if you place such limits on it. I hope that's not the case.

 

On the contrary End, it is precisely in the pursuit of love that I left Christianity, and I'd lay money that's true for nearly 100 percent of those here. If I am seen as "leading" anyone here, it would have to be to what I believe holds greater access to love than what the system called Christianity offered. I didn't leave my beliefs in love, just where to look and the means to knowing it.

[Guest end3]

I want to come back to this as it escaped my notice the first time around. How is it construed by you that leaving Christianity, that looking for answers elsewhere is to lead people to anything "other than to love"?

 

To cut to the quick K, the entity of ExC does function as a community and as a path away from Christianity, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. If you are unsure about where the path leads, then how can you justify it as love to lead someone down this path? Would you truly do that to your brother?

 

The encompassing light............. I was not there for your NDE, but what did you expect of Heaven, something that transends human expectation and religion? What happened to the most simple answer thing?

[Ouroboros]

I want to come back to this as it escaped my notice the first time around. How is it construed by you that leaving Christianity, that looking for answers elsewhere is to lead people to anything "other than to love"?

 

To cut to the quick K, the entity of ExC does function as a community and as a path away from Christianity, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. If you are unsure about where the path leads, then how can you justify it as love to lead someone down this path? Would you truly do that to your brother?

That is incorrect. I came to this website after I de-converted, and so did about 99.9999% of the members here. The only ones who didn't, are the ones who never where Christians (lifelong atheists etc), or those very few who came here as Christians and de-converted while they were here (I can count them on one hand, maybe there's more, but I can only remember a very few). So no, this forum is not a "path away from Christianity," it's the place after you left Christianity. We already walked the path. No one really is walking away from Christianity, but are trying to walk into something new. It's slightly different than you make it out to be.

 

I just wanted to point that out to make sure you're clear on this. We're not in this for some evangelistic purposes. We're not trying to de-convert people. You choose to come here, and you do so because you want to come, not because we make you log in.

 

Okay, now you can go back to the topic.

[florduh]

To cut to the quick K, the entity of ExC does function as a community and as a path away from Christianity, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. If you are unsure about where the path leads, then how can you justify it as love to lead someone down this path? Would you truly do that to your brother?

 

 

 

People leave Christianity not because of this site, but because of Christianity itself. A little bit of HONEST Bible study will expose the religion for the sham it is.

 

Those who have discovered this truth find it completely shakes their worldview, and often other damage has been done by Christian beliefs and practices. This site helps those people to cope and heal.

 

Of course there are no known definitive answers to everything, but most of us here know that Christianity is all about a false hope, a false god, and a false understanding of our universe. To admit to unknowns is the Truth, something you won't get in a religion that claims to have all the answers.

 

Every moderator here is eminently qualified to administer this site and intelligently discuss ex-Christianity and its related subjects. To disqualify anyone who doesn't have the Ultimate Truth to offer effectively disqualifies everyone on the planet.

[Antlerman]

I want to come back to this as it escaped my notice the first time around. How is it construed by you that leaving Christianity, that looking for answers elsewhere is to lead people to anything "other than to love"?

 

To cut to the quick K, the entity of ExC does function as a community and as a path away from Christianity, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. If you are unsure about where the path leads, then how can you justify it as love to lead someone down this path? Would you truly do that to your brother?

 

The encompassing light............. I was not there for your NDE, but what did you expect of Heaven, something that transends human expectation and religion? What happened to the most simple answer thing?

Several things:

"the entity of ExC

does

function as a community and as a path away from Christianity"

 

I'm not aware that ExC offers any path in particular. We're a community of diverse views. It's simply a place for people with something in common to come together, namely they left Christianity. Here they are free to express their thoughts and feelings about that. It's not about de-converting anyone or leading them into some "new faith".

 

"If you are unsure about where the path leads, then how can you justify it as love to lead someone down this path?"

 

That seems to be the crux of the problem for you, and most Christians. You think you have to have the answers in order to embark on the road. You lack faith. Talk about not being led by love, End. I listen to my heart, so does everyone else who took the bold step to break away from a system that not only offers "answers" that you seem to find appealing, it also threatens them with pain and torment and anguish for stepping out. I say that those who can do this, have far more the spirit of truth in them then those who hide in supposed safety behind the church pews.

 

I go with the saying "You shall know them by their fruit". Following this path for me is in fact producing fruit. It's called faith, it's called being led by my heart. It's called listening to my heart over some threatening preacher who is so insecure he can't stand for anyone to challenge his sense of security by not agreeing with him. How do I justify supporting people finding their own path? Because I can see the fruit it produces. It agrees with both my heart and my mind of reason. Christianity does not.

 

How do you justify supporting a doctrine that produces ill-fruit; that takes someone of sincerity as myself and leave them so unfulfilled and disappointed?

 

"Would you truly do that to your brother?"

 

In serving what I see as love, that I can see it grow in others though my supporting them, through my sharing my own thoughts and perceptions on my own road that they gain good, yes I would do that to my brother. It's serving life, rather than a religion. Which are you doing?

[Guest end3]

That is incorrect. I came to this website after I de-converted, and so did about 99.9999% of the members here. The only ones that didn't are the ones who never where Christians, or those very few who came here as Christians and de-converted while they were here (I can count them on one hand, maybe there's more, but I can only remember a very few). So no, this forum is not a "path away from Christianity," it's the place after you left Christianity. We already walked the path. No one really is walking away from Christianity, but are trying to walk into something new. It's slightly different than you make it out to be.

 

No, I am not, a strict observance to objectivity as a result of backlash to spirituality.....to which you are the king here Hans...

 

I just wanted to point that out to make sure you're clear on this. We're not in this for some evangelistic purposes.

 

You may profess that all you wish, but people come here for comfort and identity.....get real.

 

We're not trying to de-convert people. You choose to come here, and you do so because you want to come, not because we make you log in.

 

I now I take the responsibilty, but many may not realize that when they arrive.

[chefranden]

To cut to the quick K, the entity of ExC does function as a community and as a path away from Christianity, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. If you are unsure about where the path leads, then how can you justify it as love to lead someone down this path? Would you truly do that to your brother?

 

It is love to rescue someone from slavery of the mind, especially slavery that has caused the grief that most here have experienced. This is not a path to anything in particular, and doesn't pretend to be. And try to remember that Ex-C doesn't recruit, like certain other dead end organizations we might mention. Take for example yourself, did anyone recruit you for membership? I doubt it.

 

Speaking of slavery of the mind, Ex-C is the underground railroad helping the slaves who have gotten away from Simon Legree.

[Guest end3]

Those who have discovered this truth find it completely shakes their worldview, and often other damage has been done by Christian beliefs and practices. This site helps those people to cope and heal.

 

Damage has been done by everyone, this site nor newly discovered truth does not hold the key to morality.

 

Of course there are no known definitive answers to everything,

 

Yes, so how can you argue for the endpoint? i.e. death, that's will help people find peace...death.

 

Every moderator here is eminently qualified to administer this site and intelligently discuss ex-Christianity and its related subjects. To disqualify anyone who doesn't have the Ultimate Truth to offer effectively disqualifies everyone on the planet.

 

Just questioning our perspective of love...

[Guest end3]

I'm not aware that ExC offers any path in particular. We're a community of diverse views. It's simply a place for people with something in common to come together, namely they left Christianity. Here they are free to express their thoughts and feelings about that. It's not about de-converting anyone or leading them into some "new faith".

 

What part of Ex-Christian do you not understand .....again a path or even a place away from Christianity. I don't think it is wrong to offer comfort to those hurt by people....that is not my point. You can ignore it all you wish, but if I love someone and they identify with me and then IMO, I am leading them, but my question remains, to what? Answer that, to what?

 

That seems to be the crux of the problem for you, and most Christians. You think you have to have the answers in order to embark on the road.

 

I beg to differ, no one has the anwers when the embark.

 

 

 

I go with the saying "You shall know them by their fruit". Following this path for me is in fact producing fruit. It's called faith, it's called being led by my heart. It's called listening to my heart over some threatening preacher who is so insecure he can't stand for anyone to challenge his sense of security by not agreeing with him. How do I justify supporting people finding their own path? Because I can see the fruit it produces. It agrees with both my heart and my mind of reason. Christianity does not.

 

How do you justify supporting a doctrine that produces ill-fruit; that takes someone of sincerity as myself and leave them so unfulfilled and disappointed?

 

I accidentally deleted the paragraph where you revert to attacking, which gets boring after awhile, but I left the two where you kept going.

 

You then also revert to a "me" stance and "my" fruit over my brother.......the fruit we all produce is at best sour.

 

In serving what I see as love, that I can see it grow in others though my supporting them, through my sharing my own thoughts and perceptions on my own road that they gain good, yes I would do that to my brother. It's serving life, rather than a religion. Which are you doing?

 

Where does the peace for us? Sure, I agree that service to others is noble, but to what end is the question I am asking.

[Ouroboros]

That is incorrect. I came to this website after I de-converted, and so did about 99.9999% of the members here. The only ones that didn't are the ones who never where Christians, or those very few who came here as Christians and de-converted while they were here (I can count them on one hand, maybe there's more, but I can only remember a very few). So no, this forum is not a "path away from Christianity," it's the place after you left Christianity. We already walked the path. No one really is walking away from Christianity, but are trying to walk into something new. It's slightly different than you make it out to be.

 

No, I am not, a strict observance to objectivity as a result of backlash to spirituality.....to which you are the king here Hans...

Yes, but there's a different to "be the path to", and "being the island where you arrive." Ex-Christian is not the road to a destination, but it is the destination after walking on a road. And from there people decided to take on new paths. But Ex-Christian is not the de-evangelizing tool to de-convert people from Christianity. You should know that by now.

 

I just wanted to point that out to make sure you're clear on this. We're not in this for some evangelistic purposes.

 

You may profess that all you wish, but people come here for comfort and identity.....get real.

What? Yes, you're absolutely right, they come here for comfort and identity, and THAT is NOT the same as GOING OUT and PREACHING and TRYING to DE-CONVERT other people. Is your IQ decreasing by the minute, or do you just skipping the step of trying to understand what you're reading?

 

End3, YOU get real, because you're extremely far off the charts when it comes to understand other people.

 

There is a big difference between having a place for those who need comfort, and a place where we educate people to go out and knock on doors. That's what I'm telling you. We're not here to teach people to de-convert Christians. We're here because we need a place to be! Exactly what you said last. But what you don't get is that you said this place is the "path" to Ex-Christianity, which is COMPLETELY different! It's not the path, it's the place. It's not the road, it's the city you come to at the end of the road. It's not the trip, it's the end of the trip. You don't get the allegories?

 

We're not trying to de-convert people. You choose to come here, and you do so because you want to come, not because we make you log in.

 

I now I take the responsibilty, but many may not realize that when they arrive.

Again... what? As far as I know, most people who come here and stay left Christianity first before they came here. You may not fit that bill, but I can testify I'm one that lost my faith first, and I'm 100% certain most can testify the same.

 

You're an arrogant jerk right now. Did something happened? Santa didn't give you the gifts you wanted?

[Guest end3]

That is incorrect. I came to this website after I de-converted, and so did about 99.9999% of the members here. The only ones that didn't are the ones who never where Christians, or those very few who came here as Christians and de-converted while they were here (I can count them on one hand, maybe there's more, but I can only remember a very few). So no, this forum is not a "path away from Christianity," it's the place after you left Christianity. We already walked the path. No one really is walking away from Christianity, but are trying to walk into something new. It's slightly different than you make it out to be.

 

No, I am not, a strict observance to objectivity as a result of backlash to spirituality.....to which you are the king here Hans...

Yes, but there's a different to "be the path to", and "being the island where you arrive." Ex-Christian is not the road to a destination, but it is the destination after walking on a road. And from there people decided to take on new paths. But Ex-Christian is not the de-evangelizing tool to de-convert people from Christianity. You should know that by now.

 

I just wanted to point that out to make sure you're clear on this. We're not in this for some evangelistic purposes.

 

You may profess that all you wish, but people come here for comfort and identity.....get real.

What? Yes, you're absolutely right, they come here for comfort and identity, and THAT is NOT the same as GOING OUT and PREACHING and TRYING to DE-CONVERT other people. Is your IQ decreasing by the minute, or do you just skipping the step of trying to understand what you're reading?

 

End3, YOU get real, because you're extremely far off the charts when it comes to understand other people.

 

There is a big difference between having a place for those who need comfort, and a place where we educate people to go out and knock on doors. That's what I'm telling you. We're not here to teach people to de-convert Christians. We're here because we need a place to be! Exactly what you said last. But what you don't get is that you said this place is the "path" to Ex-Christianity, which is COMPLETELY different! It's not the path, it's the place. It's not the road, it's the city you come to at the end of the road. It's not the trip, it's the end of the trip. You don't get the allegories?

 

We're not trying to de-convert people. You choose to come here, and you do so because you want to come, not because we make you log in.

 

I now I take the responsibilty, but many may not realize that when they arrive.

Again... what? As far as I know, most people who come here and stay left Christianity first before they came here. You may not fit that bill, but I can testify I'm one that lost my faith first, and I'm 100% certain most can testify the same.

 

You're an arrogant jerk right now. Did something happened? Santa didn't give you the gifts you wanted?

 

I am not trying to be a jerk, and if so, I apologize. The truth that is professed here and hurt to the subscribers is no different than the hurt caused by people in Christianity, but the difference large difference in the message, a message that at best offers death in the end. Is this not true?

[florduh]

". . . a message that at best offers death in the end. Is this not true?"

 

End, this site has no "message." The tone is set by the perspectives of the various people who hang out here. None but the visiting Christians and Muslims claim to have ultimate answers, just methods of searching and surviving comfortably with other humans. We have concluded on our own that Yeshua is not an answer. Maybe there is another more likely answer, maybe not.

 

If you MUST have all the answers, just make something up. Oh, I see you already did!

[Antlerman]

I'm not aware that ExC offers any path in particular. We're a community of diverse views. It's simply a place for people with something in common to come together, namely they left Christianity. Here they are free to express their thoughts and feelings about that. It's not about de-converting anyone or leading them into some "new faith".

 

What part of Ex-Christian do you not understand .....again a path or even a place away from Christianity.

A place away from Christianity is entirely different than a "path away" from Christianity. The path away from Christian begins from within Christianity. The path away from is lies in the failure of Christianity to speak to and meet the needs of its adherents. The fault lies there, not from outside of it. We're not leading anyone away from anything. That's just a case of the church blaming someone else for them failing. We don't convince people away from faith, they're convinced of that on their own.

 

I don't think it is wrong to offer comfort to those hurt by people....that is not my point. You can ignore it all you wish, but if I love someone and they identify with me and then IMO, I am leading them, but my question remains, to what? Answer that, to what?

To your point that if I have respect in the eyes of others, and my choices have an impact on them, am I leading them? To some extent I can be influential, but I would sure as hell hope someone takes the responsibility to work things out for themselves, rather than "just believing in me". I don't want to be, nor should anyone be responsible for anyone else's choices. That's entirely their own responsibility, and should be.

 

I am responsible for what I believe just as you are. But more so I'm responsible for integrity. That much I have, and if I'm to be judged its on that. I will stand up for my beliefs, I will share them with others as something that may be of value to them, but I have no expectation of them "following me", nor judge them for seeing things a different way. Not everyone is built like me, and what works for me isn't necessarily right for everyone. This is very unlike Christianity that sells a magic "one size fits all" shoe. I view that what insights I have gained may be of value to others also, and I will share them. It's not a claim to be The Answer™, and has no promise of absolute truth. On the contrary, its a view that opens the door wide for possibility, for discovery, and for growth. That's the nature of love, to share - not to "be have the right doctrines", necessarily.

 

It's scary for people to take responsibility, hence why I see Christianity as appealing to so many. Is that an attack? I say it's more my observation and opinion based on it, plus personal experience.

 

That seems to be the crux of the problem for you, and most Christians. You think you have to have the answers in order to embark on the road.

 

I beg to differ, no one has the anwers when the embark.

Then you contradict yourself. You said its wrong for me to not know the end before embarking. Now your saying it's OK to. You should retract your statement to me that evoked my response in the first place, since you appear to agree with me.

 

I go with the saying "You shall know them by their fruit". Following this path for me is in fact producing fruit. It's called faith, it's called being led by my heart. It's called listening to my heart over some threatening preacher who is so insecure he can't stand for anyone to challenge his sense of security by not agreeing with him. How do I justify supporting people finding their own path? Because I can see the fruit it produces. It agrees with both my heart and my mind of reason. Christianity does not.

 

How do you justify supporting a doctrine that produces ill-fruit; that takes someone of sincerity as myself and leave them so unfulfilled and disappointed?

 

I accidentally deleted the paragraph where you revert to attacking, which gets boring after awhile, but I left the two where you kept going.

 

You then also revert to a "me" stance and "my" fruit over my brother.......the fruit we all produce is at best sour.

I'm not sure why you internalize this as an attack. A criticism is different than an attack. I think it right and justified to criticize the system. It deserves criticism, as can be attested to by the fact of so many of our stories here on this site.

 

As far as ALL produce sour fruit at best, you then should take out a razor blade and cut out those verses in the NT which state explicitly, "You shall know them by their fruit", and lists all the fruits of the spirit. No, it is perfectly valid and right to judge the benefit and value of a belief system on the basis of the fruit it produces. My leaving Christianity opened the door for me to actually produce good fruit, whereas when I was in it being twisted and bent every which way trying to "conform to the image" of some preacher's distorted ideas of God, I was suffering - as do so many that I continue to see in the church. How well do you like what you see?

 

In serving what I see as love, that I can see it grow in others though my supporting them, through my sharing my own thoughts and perceptions on my own road that they gain good, yes I would do that to my brother. It's serving life, rather than a religion. Which are you doing?

 

Where does the peace for us? Sure, I agree that service to others is noble, but to what end is the question I am asking.

The end is life. That's the end. Not death.

 

 

I am not trying to be a jerk, and if so, I apologize. The truth that is professed here and hurt to the subscribers is no different than the hurt caused by people in Christianity, but the difference large difference in the message, a message that at best offers death in the end. Is this not true?

As I said above, I see what I'm believing in as offering life. Christianity looks forward to death as the answer to life. It looks for life after death, not during it.

[Ouroboros]

I am not trying to be a jerk, and if so, I apologize. The truth that is professed here and hurt to the subscribers is no different than the hurt caused by people in Christianity, but the difference large difference in the message, a message that at best offers death in the end. Is this not true?

Ah, I think I understand what you're saying. You're saying that this site doesn't provide any better answer or solution than the Christian church, and people are getting hurt here just as much as they do in Church. Is that what you're saying? And the only real difference is that Church gives some kind of a false hope of salvation after death, while we can't, so therefore somehow it's better to get hurt in church than here?

[Guest end3]

Ah, I think I understand what you're saying. You're saying that this site doesn't provide any better answer or solution than the Christian church, and people are getting hurt here just as much as they do in Church. Is that what you're saying? And the only real difference is that Church gives some kind of a false hope of salvation after death, while we can't, so therefore somehow it's better to get hurt in church than here?

 

 

Yes, that is what I am saying....people, IMO, look to "an answer" for peace, and with that peace it is more likely that they become able to produce fruit as AM is saying. The point to me is, it is entirely possible for someone to venture into this site having not found that peace in Christianity, not because of Christ, but because of man, find love and find appeal in "an answer" here. I think it is only reasonable to be careful of one's position. It may not be intentional, but does infact happen.

 

And no, it would be better if no one was hurt, here nor in church.

[Guest end3]

The end is life. That's the end. Not death.

 

What does this mean? This is as bad as Christian-eze...

 

 

As I said above, I see what I'm believing in as offering life.

 

I will go re-read, but again, what does offering life mean?

[Antlerman]

The end is life. That's the end. Not death.

 

What does this mean? This is as bad as Christian-eze...

 

 

As I said above, I see what I'm believing in as offering life.

 

I will go re-read, but again, what does offering life mean?

I recently listened to John Shelby Spong say how he sees the message of Christianity summarized in Jesus' saying, "I come that they might have life and have it more abundantly". It's in the spirit of that which I'm talking, though not holding up Jesus as the object of faith (I don't thing Spong necessarily does either actually). Of course I have more in common with Spong that your typical Evangelical Christian who finds Spong to be a heretic.

 

What I'm saying is that the pursuit of a fuller, healthier, happier, more free, more loving, more compassionate, more forgiving, more understanding, more appreciative life is the end of what I pursue in how I believe. There are many roads to that, and for some Christianity is a hinderance to that. So to hear you say the end of what I believe is death, is simply, utterly meaningless to me. That's not at all the case.

 

If however you mean the end is that we don't get to play in heaven with harps and all have mansons and dance with angels... well... that shouldn't be the end goal of any belief. Any belief that has that as the goal fails to look at the goal for this life. This is where I see Christianity fail. I've often asked a Christian, "If Jesus told you there was no afterlife, would you still follow him?" I've yet to hear someone say they don't care about the afterlife and its about what their faith gives them hear. It's always about the afterlife. That's why I respect Spong. He emphasizes a more abundant life here. So do I.

[Antlerman]

I think it is only reasonable to be careful of one's position. It may not be intentional, but does infact happen.

To address this point... yes I do agree its important to be careful of one's position. That's why I always try to speak in truth and sincerity, and trying as best I can to be understanding. Not that I don't fail in that sometimes. The reason being words have power, and I don't want to destroy anyone faith if I see it doing them good. I would never dream of tearing down some Christians faith who I know because I see it does them good. They in fact are better humans, because they are using their faith in such a way that it in fact is producing fruit for them. I'm very careful not to harm someone like this.

 

However, when I do challenge I usually see a good reason for it, and for the most part I trust my judgment I've learned over the years. As far as being careful I might be "misleading" someone, that "I could be wrong", well... hey, then everyone should quit saying anything to anyone. The point is I sincerely believe what I say. I may be in error, but we act on what we believe. I do a huge amount of introspection and thought into pretty much every single thing I say on this site. So, hey... it's what I believe with my mind and with my heart to be truth. And I share it. If other's value it, then I'm rewarded that others are helped. If not, it has value as part of discussion in a community of people thinking for themselves and working to find their own ways.

 

It really perplexes you how I could have an experience such as you read me share, and not see it as you do and say what I do, doesn't it? I think you just don't understand the spirit of what I'm saying and what I believe. It's not inconsistent. In fact it’s very consistent.