I Really Did Believe ... But They Say I Didn't

[PocketAces]

{{hugs to you all}} Thank you all for taking the time to reply to my tale of whiney woe! My heart goes out to all of you. Sorry it took me a while to get back here. Such a crazy time of year.

 

Now shall I whine about having a lousy cold? No, I shall be merciful lol

 

Seriously though, what a relief is has been to find this place and "meet" you all. Am looking forward to spending more time reading here.

 

Update re the Christian who told me I never really believed -- I just assumed she got the whole idea from her church authorities, in a sermon or a class or maybe she read about it somewhere. She said no, nobody ever told her about it, and the only place she read about it was in the Bible, and the Bible is infallible.

 

So I said, of course the Bible isn't infallible, but for the sake of discussion let's say it is -- in that case, you've simply misinterpreted whatever it was that led you to believe that a believer doesn't ever become an unbeliever.

 

She said no, she didn't misinterpret anything.

 

I said, can you acknowlege that it's at least possible that you've misinterpreted it?

 

She said, no, she would not acknowlege such a thing because it is not even possible.

 

So, the Bible is infallible, and so is she?

 

This whole thing has come as a huge surprise to me, as I've worked side by side with this woman for a solid year -- we've laughed and cried together about so many things and seemed to really be friends. I knew she was a Christian, and she knew I was an unbeliever, but all this time I had absolutely no idea she held such extreme beliefs. It's like, beneath the mask of an ordinary, decent, normal, civilized, rational, polite person, there was all this time lurking this arrogant, hate-filled, wacko.

 

It's just so disconcerting.

 

Anyway, so thank you all again for helping me understand this thing better. I really appreciate you all.

 

one way i try to look at it is, try to have pity or maybe even empathy on them. no one will ever admit at first when they are convicted in the infalliability of something, be it the Bible or whatever, no one that their life is solely guided by such a conviction is ever going to man up to the fact that they may have either one, misinterpretated, or that just maybe it isn't infallible after all at first. humility and honest, humble searching has no place in conviction or in faith. look at all us whom it took years to deconvert. we were once just like them. please don't take this as me saying your not doing this, i wouldn't know.

 

i'm finding myself becoming more militant in my atheism but at the same time, more understanding of the reasons why we cannot discuss this issue rationally with believers, and that makes me have pity on them.

[R. S. Martin]

Heb. 10: ²⁶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, ²⁷ But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. ²⁸ He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: ²⁹ Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

I'm not sure if this is the passage or not. It does not sound as threatening as it used to. I even noticed a loophole when I read it this time: If we "count" the "blood of the covenant" an "unholy thing"--in other words, it's all in our minds--then and only then is there meaning in any of this. There is no literal meaning or value in the blood of Jesus at all, or in his death. It's all in our minds. I never knew this. Nobody ever told me. They said Jesus' death opened heaven's gates so I believed it did. I figured it was my job to figure out how it worked. Since I couldn't figure out how it worked, and people refused to clarify for me, I had to deconvert because I refused to go on lying about sacred matters.

 

I spent close to forty years, and much anguish of heart, in my efforts to figure this out. Now they tell me I was never a real Christian to begin with. If I dislike this charge and respond with less than perfect politeness, it's me who gets accusations of being the angry atheist and having "issues" I need to "deal" with. I figure it's them talking to the mirror. By that I mean the theory that sometimes people repress the unwanted truth about themselves and project it onto another person, then attack that person.

 

Welcome to the crowd, Millie. You're among friends.

 

i just found the verse i was referencing too:

 

Hebrews 6

 

1Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do if God permits. 4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

 

Thanks. I'm more familiar with KJV so I looked it up. It's Chapter 6 verses 4-6 that I had in mind.

 

The KJV says if you've been enlightened, part taken of the Holy Ghost, and tasted of the heavenly gift and then fall away, there is no more possibility for repentance. "Enlightened," "Holy Ghost," and "heavenly gift"--those are strong terms. A person who has all of those is a real Christian in every sense of the word. (Please don't suggest that many deconverted people have identical psychological experiences.)

 

The writer says if such people fall away there is no more repentance. We all know that without repentance there is no salvation. Just to clarify, the writer emphasizes that such people are crucifying Christ and putting him to open shame. Verses 7&8 show that such a person is fit only to be cursed and burned like thorns and briars.

 

There is no mistaking the meaning. The person was a very real Christian. Likewise, the apostacy is very real, too.

 

I hope the fundies don't take it into their heads to act out the violence the Bible commands them to excercise toward apostates. They are violent as it is.

[Snafutopia]

I hope the fundies don't take it into their heads to act out the violence the Bible commands them to excercise toward apostates.

 

 

ruh-roh! What violence does the Bible command them to exercise? Because, ya know, the fact that this person is not being violent toward me, means she's disobeying the Bible And I think I simply must point that out to her, because according to her, a person who disobeys the Bible is "a child of the Devil"

[Snafutopia]

one way i try to look at it is, try to have pity or maybe even empathy on them. no one will ever admit at first when they are convicted in the infalliability of something, be it the Bible or whatever, no one that their life is solely guided by such a conviction is ever going to man up to the fact that they may have either one, misinterpretated, or that just maybe it isn't infallible after all at first. humility and honest, humble searching has no place in conviction or in faith. look at all us whom it took years to deconvert. we were once just like them. please don't take this as me saying your not doing this, i wouldn't know.

 

Oh definitely I'm as stubborn and argumentative as anybody else. And certainly encountering such Christians is not a new experience -- it's just that I would never have guessed that this particular person was one of "that kind of Christian." That's what's been so surprising -- the fact that it's this particular person. Well, that, and the whole thing about "no true believer ever becomes an unbeliever". Maybe a lot of the Christians who know me think that way but have just never admitted it.

 

And! the infallibility thing -- lol! Maybe a lot of people truly believe they're infallible (regardless of whether they're religious or not), but this is the first time anybody ever just came right out and said it (in effect).

 

 

i'm finding myself becoming more militant in my atheism but at the same time, more understanding of the reasons why we cannot discuss this issue rationally with believers, and that makes me have pity on them.

 

Totally understood. With me I think it varies depending on the specific person, circumstance, attitude, etc. And of course just how b****y of a mood I happen to be in at the time

 

With my husband (Baptist, but one of the nice ones) and daughter and son-in-law (very sweet fundamentalist/evangelical/non-denominational but open-minded and hey they even believe in evolution) never am I b****y.

 

They're great to talk to and thankfully they all have a great sense of humor Same goes for our son and daughter in law, who started out as Baptists but have in the space of less than ten years mellowed into a relaxed, cheerful agnosticism. Partly due, I think, to living/working in the urban coastal Northwest -- it's a whole 'nother world up there, and they've blossomed in that atmosphere of intellectual freedom.

[pitchu]

Anyone who spends years praying to Jesus, attending church to be closer to Jesus, listening to sermons about Jesus, tending the kids at Sunday school so other adults are free to learn more about Jesus, teaching their own kids about Jesus, tithing regularly to support all that Jesus wants done, doing charity work in the name of Jesus, going to retreats, camps, revivals to strengthen their love for Jesus, putting a fish on their car so everybody on the interstate knows they believe in Jesus, and then, when their brains click into proper alignment, are told, "You were never a True Christian," has every right to:

 

Smile, lovingly take the hands of the accuser into their own, tilt their head at that sanctimonious 20-degree Christian angle and say, "You're right. I was only in it for the money."

 

[Snafutopia]

lol Pitchu! That's great. May I steal that?

[pitchu]

lol Pitchu! That's great. May I steal that?

 

No theft necessary. It's given freely.

[Guest QuidEstCaritas?]

Sadly, the old Christian friends usually choose their superstition over friendship. You may find many (or all) of them never loved you as the real person you are. They liked to be with you because you verified that their belief was right.

 

That sounds a lot like what an alcoholic's alcoholic drinking buddies would say! As a matter of fact that is very similar to what they would say. Then again I have known "God" is a drug unto itself, and this explains why religious people behave this way. Hopefully in a couple more centuries there will be CA (Christians Anonymous). "Hi, my name is Joe and I'm a recovering Christian and I am 6 months sober from the illusions and addictive behavior! I haven't touched a Bible in six months can you believe that!". It would be good to see something like that happen, although I doubt I will be around when humanity reaches that point (and I think it will).

 

Sadly it is almost always the case that people who are in a religious community of any sort wind up seeing others in the community as believers in Christ who help each other grow, and oftentimes they fail to develop a friendship based on anything substantial other than that. Once you add into the mix the belief that an apostate is destined to rot in some supernatural dimension for all eternity where the ephemeral flames of God's wrath lick allegedly lick his/her soul for all eternity, then one can see how hesitant people would become for associating with such a "lost" soul who no longer has affirming Faith in Christ.

 

P.S.

 

I am not an alcoholic or addict I just have known people who were.

[PocketAces]

Heb. 10: ²⁶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, ²⁷ But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. ²⁸ He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: ²⁹ Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

I'm not sure if this is the passage or not. It does not sound as threatening as it used to. I even noticed a loophole when I read it this time: If we "count" the "blood of the covenant" an "unholy thing"--in other words, it's all in our minds--then and only then is there meaning in any of this. There is no literal meaning or value in the blood of Jesus at all, or in his death. It's all in our minds. I never knew this. Nobody ever told me. They said Jesus' death opened heaven's gates so I believed it did. I figured it was my job to figure out how it worked. Since I couldn't figure out how it worked, and people refused to clarify for me, I had to deconvert because I refused to go on lying about sacred matters.

 

I spent close to forty years, and much anguish of heart, in my efforts to figure this out. Now they tell me I was never a real Christian to begin with. If I dislike this charge and respond with less than perfect politeness, it's me who gets accusations of being the angry atheist and having "issues" I need to "deal" with. I figure it's them talking to the mirror. By that I mean the theory that sometimes people repress the unwanted truth about themselves and project it onto another person, then attack that person.

 

Welcome to the crowd, Millie. You're among friends.

 

i just found the verse i was referencing too:

 

Hebrews 6

 

1Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do if God permits. 4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

 

Thanks. I'm more familiar with KJV so I looked it up. It's Chapter 6 verses 4-6 that I had in mind.

 

The KJV says if you've been enlightened, part taken of the Holy Ghost, and tasted of the heavenly gift and then fall away, there is no more possibility for repentance. "Enlightened," "Holy Ghost," and "heavenly gift"--those are strong terms. A person who has all of those is a real Christian in every sense of the word. (Please don't suggest that many deconverted people have identical psychological experiences.)

 

The writer says if such people fall away there is no more repentance. We all know that without repentance there is no salvation. Just to clarify, the writer emphasizes that such people are crucifying Christ and putting him to open shame. Verses 7&8 show that such a person is fit only to be cursed and burned like thorns and briars.

 

There is no mistaking the meaning. The person was a very real Christian. Likewise, the apostacy is very real, too.

 

I hope the fundies don't take it into their heads to act out the violence the Bible commands them to excercise toward apostates. They are violent as it is.

exactly. the way i see it from that verse, it takes someone who was a real Christian to get to a point to not be able to repent anymore which then they become apostates. it takes a person who was once a real believer to forsake the passion on the cross. to do all those things that are written in those verses, one must first prior be a Christian, period, and a serious one.

 

no way could i suggest that people have identical psychological experiences because in Christianity there isn't one defined holy ghost experience or one strictly defined psychological experience, because God works in many ways remember?

[PocketAces]

one way i try to look at it is, try to have pity or maybe even empathy on them. no one will ever admit at first when they are convicted in the infalliability of something, be it the Bible or whatever, no one that their life is solely guided by such a conviction is ever going to man up to the fact that they may have either one, misinterpretated, or that just maybe it isn't infallible after all at first. humility and honest, humble searching has no place in conviction or in faith. look at all us whom it took years to deconvert. we were once just like them. please don't take this as me saying your not doing this, i wouldn't know.

 

Oh definitely I'm as stubborn and argumentative as anybody else. And certainly encountering such Christians is not a new experience -- it's just that I would never have guessed that this particular person was one of "that kind of Christian." That's what's been so surprising -- the fact that it's this particular person. Well, that, and the whole thing about "no true believer ever becomes an unbeliever". Maybe a lot of the Christians who know me think that way but have just never admitted it.

 

And! the infallibility thing -- lol! Maybe a lot of people truly believe they're infallible (regardless of whether they're religious or not), but this is the first time anybody ever just came right out and said it (in effect).

 

 

i'm finding myself becoming more militant in my atheism but at the same time, more understanding of the reasons why we cannot discuss this issue rationally with believers, and that makes me have pity on them.

 

Totally understood. With me I think it varies depending on the specific person, circumstance, attitude, etc. And of course just how b****y of a mood I happen to be in at the time

 

With my husband (Baptist, but one of the nice ones) and daughter and son-in-law (very sweet fundamentalist/evangelical/non-denominational but open-minded and hey they even believe in evolution) never am I b****y.

 

They're great to talk to and thankfully they all have a great sense of humor Same goes for our son and daughter in law, who started out as Baptists but have in the space of less than ten years mellowed into a relaxed, cheerful agnosticism. Partly due, I think, to living/working in the urban coastal Northwest -- it's a whole 'nother world up there, and they've blossomed in that atmosphere of intellectual freedom.

 

there are some friends of mine that i'm shocked what they believe. one being anti-science as she is, and its funny to listen to a nominal religious person proclaim, "fuck science!"

 

haha on the bitchy comment

for me its becoming i can be an asshole with a smile on my face, and be kind too ha. its great, i love it. that's why in a way i don't go out searching for debates and such now. because i know how much i can be a dick, and an asshole, and i don't explain my side pc, and i'm not too sympathetic to the ears of the listener when they ask me a question because if someone asks me a question, that means i have to be bluntly honest. all i can say is cheers!

 

the strange thing for me is, i've moved around a lot even tho i'm only 27. and right now, i've ended up in a very conservative, catholic town. yet i'm a liberal atheist. it's fucking great haha. seriously tho, i like living here, regardless of this fact that i feel like i'm the antithesis of what this town and city upholds as good. hell, i've ran into people who are drunks and who would be a lot of standards live very sexually immoral, and they have more faith than i do ha. i'm still trying to find ways to find the disbelieveing folk here where i live, or in the area i live.

 

but i suppose its different in other sections of our country. like you mentioned how the northwest is a different world with intellectual freedom. i just still sometimes think its funny how i grew up in a small conservative town, moved around a lot, been across the country 2x, and i end up back in a small conservative religious town but i'm an extreme liberal atheist. the ironies of life i suppose.

[Phaceless]

It just really hurts, to have friends tell me I didn't "really" believe, when I know I did.

 

It's basically being told that that whole period of my life didn't really exist.

 

Worse, it's like being told I don't exist. Because "there's no such thing as an apostate." Example: "If a person denounces God that means they never really believed in God in the first place."

 

Hi Millie, welcome to Ex-C!

 

Yes, I know where you are coming from. My parents are Baptist. They think of me as lost, and that is painful for me to think about too much. It would be impossible for them to acknowledge that, having left the faith, I was ever a Christian. They are from the Once Saved Always Saved crowd.

 

Even if I have success in my field, am financially well off, etc., that means nothing. They have failed because I am not a Christian.

 

They use a verse that starts out "My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow me..

The ending is the kicker "I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand". I didn't look it up, so some of the words of the verse may be slightly different. The point is that no one can separate a "saved" person from Christ. They are preserved in the faith by some supernatural power. Very bizarre if you think about it. A person baptized at 12 years old is supposed to think exactly the same way when they are 50. No questioning, not any problem with Christianity after they have university education, etc.

 

I don't really know how you maintain a friendship with someone who views you in this way. Essentially, they are saying that you are a liar, and that you lied about something that was very important to you and your integrity is at stake. If they have other positive qualities such that you want to remain in their company, all I can suggest is that the topic of religion is not discussed.

 

That is sad.

 

Why stay in contact with people who demonize and dehumanize you?

That is exactly what they are doing.. demonizing you and your character.

Dehumanize you just enough to explain why you would choose to reject the Great Fantastical Brain Slug Borg Virus.

 

Its too late.. you left the Matrix now they would ratherl burn you at the stake than accept that its possible for people to de-Borg themselves.

 

Its time to move on and find people who will have positive impact on your life.

[Snafutopia]

I hope the fundies don't take it into their heads to act out the violence the Bible commands them to excercise toward apostates.

 

 

 

Hi again R.S. I can't find anything in the NT that instructs violence against apostates. In the OT, the only references I can find apply to people who begin stop worshipping Jahweh (or whatever God's name was at that time) and start worshipping something else. Which of course doesn't apply to me.

 

But certainly I could be overlooking some passages so if you know of any, please send 'em along. Thanks.

[Snafutopia]

oh... duh .... there are some other threads here already, covering this same topic (ex-believers being told they "never really believed").

 

Here are the links for reference (if you know of others please post, as I need to read all these as time permits. Thanks!)

 

Has Anyone Been Called A Liar Because They Left The Faith?

 

Woman Claims Ex-cs Were Never Believers To Begin With

 

You were never a real Christian!

 

Is It Really Possible To Be An Ex-christian?

[Snafutopia]

Re the references from "the book of Hebrews" especially this section:

 

4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

 

I had forgotten about this. Some time ago, this passage was explained in a Sunday School class, at this Baptist church, as refering to people who had "almost been saved." That is, people who had heard the "plan of salvation" or whatever, and their emotions were aroused, they were "almost persuaded," they "felt the Spirit's presence" etc. but "decided to reject it."

 

It never occurred to me that this idea is directly connected to the doctrine of "once saved, always saved".

 

hmmm. So probably this church believes the same thing my ex-friend believes -- that there's no such thing as an ex-Christian, and if you "become" an unbeliever then you were never "really" a believer in the first place.

 

I should ask them but actually I'm afraid to. I still visit there occasionally to accompany my husband (since the children are grown I can't bear how lonely a thing it is for him to go to church by himself, and my going really does make him happy). If the church people start in with the "you were never a REAL believer" I don't think I'll be able to just sit there and take it with a polite humble demeander so I think I'm just not going to ask them what they really think. My husband says they don't know my heart, and why should anybody care what they think. For a Baptist, he's very sensible