An Apology For Apologists

[been there done that]

I made an effort to explain that it was the injustice (I had put it in capital letters for emphasis to ensure that it was noticed and avoid any misunderstanding). I didn't feel bad about being "called" (and convicted justly) on not making a special effort to keep the peace, it was the injustice of being singled out while everybody else was guilty of non-stop/constant "negativity" (blatant negativity, not subtle negativity).

 

Really, "negativity" is too kind a word for the aggressive hostility and name calling, constant insults and suggestive accusation, but it was the INJUSTICE that I couldn't accept.

 

It's no matter of contention, but just so you understand my point of view, we're required to love/respect others ONLY as much as we love/respect OURSELVES. Realistically, I have no need to show myself "respect" or "love", so, if a person is hoping that I will flatter or patronize them (as though they are needy of this), I will not oblige them by enabling/perpetuating their insecurities (condescension is dehumanizing to the other person).

 

It was only the injustice that bothered me. I appreciate the advice about the "soft words", but do not be concerned for me.

[Heavenslaughing]

It was only the injustice that bothered me. I appreciate the advice about the "soft words", but do not be concerned for me.

 

Let's take his last bit of advice seriously and not be concerned for him. At all. Folks, I'd like to say this guy derailed a thread that otherwise would've been a genuinely interesting conversation with an apologetic ex-apologist. I'd like to say that, but that would give him power he doesn't really have. He baited, and we engaged. My hat goes off to everyone who consistently attempts reasonable responses to unreasonable arguments. In this case, it did not serve us well. Since this is the Lion's Den, it wouldn't have made moderating sense to boot one Christian from the discussion in favor of another, but it's a shame which arguments in effect became dominant in the thread. If Joanna returns, and I hope she does, we might do well to have a thread in the Colosseum from which posts attempting aggressive apologetics or otherwise derailing the discussion will be instantly removed. This wouldn't just be for the sake of making the forums a more emotionally welcoming place; it would also be for the sake of improving the quality of discussion which we read and write.

[Neon Genesis]

I made an effort to explain that it was the injustice (I had put it in capital letters for emphasis to ensure that it was noticed and avoid any misunderstanding). I didn't feel bad about being "called" (and convicted justly) on not making a special effort to keep the peace, it was the injustice of being singled out while everybody else was guilty of non-stop/constant "negativity" (blatant negativity, not subtle negativity).

 

Really, "negativity" is too kind a word for the aggressive hostility and name calling, constant insults and suggestive accusation, but it was the INJUSTICE that I couldn't accept.

 

It's no matter of contention, but just so you understand my point of view, we're required to love/respect others ONLY as much as we love/respect OURSELVES. Realistically, I have no need to show myself "respect" or "love", so, if a person is hoping that I will flatter or patronize them (as though they are needy of this), I will not oblige them by enabling/perpetuating their insecurities (condescension is dehumanizing to the other person).

 

It was only the injustice that bothered me. I appreciate the advice about the "soft words", but do not be concerned for me.

Last I checked, you were the one who came here and accused us first of deconverting because we're "angry" at Christians and claimed it was our life-long goal to persecute people when you had no evidence of the sort. If anyone was given injustice, it was us and Joanna when you hijacked this thread to spread lies about us, you hypocrite. And no, if you're a Christian, you are not required to love and respect other as much as they do you. You're required to forgive your enemies and turn the other cheek. Stop trying to put words into Jesus' mouth and twisting the meaning of the golden rule. You don't love or respect anyone. You believe in an eye for an eye which Jesus said was a sin. Stop trying to claim otherwise.

[LilaMae]

Hi Joanna

 

You seem like a lovely, sincere person. But there is no need to apologise for the actions of others.

 

 

 

 

BTDT- Please get out of your own arse. This thread is not about special little you, it's Joanna's thread. Oh, and we are not concerned for you. I for one could not give less of a damn.

[Antlerman]

It was only the injustice that bothered me. I appreciate the advice about the "soft words", but do not be concerned for me.

 

Let's take his last bit of advice seriously and not be concerned for him. At all. Folks, I'd like to say this guy derailed a thread that otherwise would've been a genuinely interesting conversation with an apologetic ex-apologist. I'd like to say that, but that would give him power he doesn't really have. He baited, and we engaged. My hat goes off to everyone who consistently attempts reasonable responses to unreasonable arguments. In this case, it did not serve us well. Since this is the Lion's Den, it wouldn't have made moderating sense to boot one Christian from the discussion in favor of another, but it's a shame which arguments in effect became dominant in the thread. If Joanna returns, and I hope she does, we might do well to have a thread in the Colosseum from which posts attempting aggressive apologetics or otherwise derailing the discussion will be instantly removed. This wouldn't just be for the sake of making the forums a more emotionally welcoming place; it would also be for the sake of improving the quality of discussion which we read and write.

I'm aware of all those factors which is why I make a point in the other forums to keep it more inviting. I allowed this to continue for three reasons. 1. It stood as a sharp contrast to Joanna, having a living example in hand. 2. Joanna stated that she was backing out for some time 3. It is the Lion's Den and I don't want to start exercising tighter moderation of discussions here, where it is explicitly stated that topic can and do get derailed. Often times its a place where a topic that has turned into garbage gets dumped here for it to be chewed to bits with abandon. Other forums have that sort of special place too, where I've seen it called "The Boiler Room", where people just have at it. The Den has it's place.

 

What I would prefer seeing happen is that someone like Joanna would choose the Colosseum to post a topic like this, there it will get protected and I would have stopped this way long ago. Sometimes, if I catch a topic soon enough that should be put into the Colleseum for those reasons, I'll move it there myself. But as it stands, Joanna started another topic here that seems to be free from infection. I may consider moving it, but if I start doing that with everything soon it will be tons of things there. I would rather the user choose wisely to put it there instead of here themselves. I don't want to over-moderate everything, and hardly at all in the Lion's Den unless way out of line like threats and whatnot.

[Evolution_beyond]

we're required to love/respect others ONLY as much as we love/respect OURSELVES. Realistically, I have no need to show myself "respect" or "love", so, if a person is hoping that I will flatter or patronize them (as though they are needy of this), I will not oblige them by enabling/perpetuating their insecurities (condescension is dehumanizing to the other person).

 

Your ability to twist what is in the Bible and make it mean its opposite is truly impressive.

 

It's been an education if nothing else.

[mwc]

(true Jesus worship/devotion was called the "Way", the word "christian" is likely Roman slang)

I'm still waiting to hear the support for this. It came up in two threads and for some reason bad blood is preferred over simply defending one tiny little statement. Maybe 3rd times the charm (xians like things in 3's).

 

mwc

[mwc]

Anyone else reminded of Mr. K? aka Kratos?

I wasn't thinking Kratos. I wish my memory was better so I could name names though. It was one of those recent B'hai types. They tend to have the Muslim type names though whereas our new friend doesn't. His style of presentation is very similar though (inline citations in parenthesis like this with lots of words in caps). We had that very "friendly" guy who just wanted to show us how his version of things was so much better everything we had ever heard before but would rarely speak to the gals around here. He was a musician or something and had made his rounds on a number of other sites. He wasn't so friendly when we actually wanted to have our own opinions on things.

 

mwc

[Misterspock1]

It's no matter of contention, but just so you understand my point of view, we're required to love/respect others ONLY as much as we love/respect OURSELVES. Realistically, I have no need to show myself "respect" or "love", so, if a person is hoping that I will flatter or patronize them (as though they are needy of this), I will not oblige them by enabling/perpetuating their insecurities (condescension is dehumanizing to the other person).

 

Interesting. Let me just follow that line of logic to the next step.

 

Hate is the opposite of love, meaning that if you don't love someone (us) then you hate them. 1 John says that anyone who hates his brother is a murderer. So if you are supposed to mete out the same measure of love toward yourself as you do others, doesn't that mean you should kill yourself?

 

Not telling you to, of course. I am just following the next logical step.

[BlueGiant]

BTDT, you come to our house to attack us and you call it INJUSTICE? Calling you out on your BS is INJUSTICE? Taking the words you use and showing you that they are FOS is INJUSTICE?

 

Boy, you have no fucking clue what injustice is. Pray, you never do. Ever. I'd list examples, but it'd be pearls before swine.

[FirstInTheDance]

As long as you choose to equate life with never ending struggle you will always be struggling and never achieve full humanity.

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure we were all BORN fully human. Why anyone would strive to be something else, I'm not sure.

 

Joanna, welcome to the Boards. You seem sincere and kind hearted. If you truly are, you will be treated with respect, and if you choose to frequent this site, I am sure you will find many friends here. However, as some other posters have noted, it will take a bit of time to win some people's trust. It's a common tactic for Christians to come in and start off nice. They pretend to be non-judgemental, they pretend to be kind, they pretend to be interested in what we have to say. But time usually tells, and they wind up showing their true colors when they finally figure out that they aren't going to win any converts here.

 

True, some of us may be searching for a belief system, but Christianity "ain't" it. "Ex-Christian" means that Christianity has already been tried, and it didn't work. Most of us were at one time very devout. Many of us know the Bible better than the apologists who try to use it to convert us. We have Ex-Priests, Ex-Pastors, Ex-Missionaries, etc. Many, many of us had a painful deconversion. In some cases, it has cost the sacrifice of homes, jobs, friends, and families. The decision to leave wasn't undertaken lightly. People here are not "mad at God." We didn't "throw the baby out with the bath water." We didn't leave because we "just want to sin." We didn't leave because "people hurt us." Or any of the other rationalizations Christians tell themselves. The fact is that many of us don't believe in any God(s). Those of us who are open to the possibility that a God or Gods may exist, agree that IT (He, She, They) is not the one portrayed in the Bible.

 

We've heard all the arguments. We've seen all the tactics. So, if you are here merely to meet people and exchange ideas, that is wonderful - welcome again. If you have a hidden agenda, and start trying to convert people, you'll be met with resistance. ALOT of resistance from alot of people here.

[Munk]

Joanna, I'm so sorry your thread got derailed even though this IS the lion's den...I appreciate your apology, but I cannot forgive someone for a wrong they never committed However, I applaud your courage and sense of what's right to step into a hostile environment and attempt to make some sort of peace. Seriously, if more christians were like you, I wouldn't be so disgusted with them. You appear to understand the concept of respect, and for that I thank you. It's so rare these days.

 

BTDT: Christianity is not some slang term for "The Way". "The Way" is Taoism, which I believe (please someone correct me if I'm wrong) is much older than christianity. In fact, that's what Tao means, "way". Please stop confusing your religion with a peaceful one that tends to leave other people alone and honors nature. Don't muss up their name by pulling it in with your bullshit. Also, thank you for reaffirming my thanks to Joanna. You're the kind of person that she feels she must apologize for even though she seems to be a decent, respectful person which is far more than I can say for you.

 

Your ilk are the ones that overshadow people like Joanna who simply want to reach some form of coexistence without crazy hostility. I honor and respect her for jumping into the shark tank and remaining not just civil, but friendly despite what she knew she'd likely encounter here. This site doesn't discriminate against christians, just dick heads. It's just that the amount of dick heads on this site tends to correlate pretty evenly to the number of christians that swing by for some good ol' bible thumpin'. In short, Joanna gets the niceties because she gives them out herself. You however, are a long way off, and I hope you haven't totally destroyed all your chances for good.

 

Joanna, thank you for having a heart. BTDT, please grow one.

[Guest Samantha Rae]

Hi, Joanna!

WOW! This is a very timely and well-taken apology from an Apologist. I had the misfortune of stumbling into some of their blogs where they were discussing the evils of Eckhart Tolle and Oprah and I must say, they are the singularly most arrogant bunch of morons I have ever come across, and it's clear that they NEVER apologize, so I'll graciously take your apology instead Oh, and since you apologized, you must have never been a "true" Apologist

 

Sam

 

Hello everyone --

 

 

 

I came across this forum while looking up something on Google, and after looking over many of the posts, I thought I'd say I completely empathize with those here who went looking for answers from apologists, and came away empty-handed.

 

I, too, was an ardent reader of apologetic works, but now I know most, if not all, to be completely useless.

 

One cannot "convince" anyone that the God of Christianity is real. Any attempt to do so will do more harm than good.

 

So, as a believer, I feel led (as it were) to say, "I am sorry."

 

I am sorry for all the professed Christians who felt they could persuade, cajole, humour, or else beat you over the head with their so-called logic. I am also sorry that I was once one of these people, eager to "save" people by the power of my intellect. The need to be right should never preclude the need to respect, listen, and to love.

 

 

 

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

J