An Apology For Apologists

[chefranden]

1. So, of course, most people would like to blame ME for not treating them like a primadonna and "respectfully" debating and replying to being called "jackass", etc., but in civilization, it is completely unreasonable to expect anyone to be accommodating after being addressed in such a manner.

 

2. Poetic justice means that 'as you do unto others, you are also doing unto yourself" (meaning that...at the same time that you are disrespecting other people, your conscience knows that you are being unjust, self imposed shame). This is when a person will see their natural face in the "mirror"...James 1:23.

 

 

1. True, but you are a Christian, and a TrueChristian™ to boot. You are not of the world. Either by magical help from above, or shear grit you are to turn the other cheek and return good for evil. You are to be in the world and not of it. You should be peculiar not normal.

 

2. Ah then I am being just, for my conscience is clear. You are a Pharisee who by nature is unable to see your natural face in the mirror. You just see the "I am Holier than Thou face."

 

I am the mirror sent by God to show you your warts.*

 

On a lighter note, what did you and the Lord have for coffee today? Does he take his with cream?

 

*FYI: I believe along with Calvin and Paul that I have been chosen for unbelief. I'm one of the pots made to keep the shit in. This according to Paul is for your good. If I didn't point out your hypocrisy, your shit stains as it were, you wouldn't be able to enjoy the Glory of God. You see when your own Holiness starts to shine too much it is difficult if not impossible to see the faint Glory of God through the haze. And secondly, by necessity there must be many sinners to provide enough contrast for God's glory to be seen" I am happy to do my bit for the God that isn't there.

[been there done that]

Antlerman,

 

You used the greatest word..."principles". Because the Hebrew Christians had not learned the "principles" of God, they had to continue learning the "milk" in the word of truth and were not ready for "solid food".

 

I have no need to avoid the wrath of any man (I am arrogant and have strength of conviction, often jealously resented as pigheaded/stubborn).

 

I didn't call anybody a dog as in 'less than human' or 'lowlife' (certainly not, we were ALL initially made in the image of God). The "Lions" in the Den were bombarding me with endless hostility like MAD dogs (no useful discussion possible).

 

Amos 5:21

"I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies".

 

 

That's right, God doesn't need praise, compliments, or flattery, nor does He need our 'service'. He warns against hypocrisy, public prayer, solemn worship services, etc.. God is not needy of anything (including money or any of our 'self effort' works). We should be mindful of Him, respectful, and reverent (not reject Him, why should anyone want to???). We should love each other as fellow human beings (extend each other human rights and peaceful coexistence), but we should not love each other MORE than we love OURSELVES (no icon/primadonna), I have no overwhelming reason to love myself, I have no need to show respect to myself (nor do I need others to show me respect, I do not depend on others to make me whole).

 

God is 'PRO'/for 'human being', not ANTI. His wish is that we find His wise counsel in scripture (the "word of truth"), not crush ourselves with 'sin' against propriety (man's codes of etiquette, table manners, dress codes, etc.) . He doesn't want us to sin against HEAVEN/rightness like the prodigal son did ("heaven" suffered no harm/damage, but the victim/dad did, the son recognized that fact with sorrow and the dad reacted the same as God does, but our wisdom should not be confined to/found in parables, Matthew 13:13).

 

God exists no matter what anyone on earth does, says, or thinks (externally, He exists...PERIOD), but in order to truly know Him, we must let Him be INTERNAL also.

 

Romans 2:29

"inwardly, and real circumcision/devotion is a matter of the heart, spiritual"

 

 

"AS JESUS" rejecting the Pharisees. Nobody on earth should be in competition with GOD (I use the words "God" and "Jesus" interchangably because Jesus is the whole fullness of God, Colossians 2:9). This is mankind's biggest mistake. "Christianity" wants to be "AS JESUS". Only Jesus hung on the cross. Only Jesus left God's spirit. Christianity makes Jesus an ICON and disregards/ignores/forsakes the 'inward human'.

 

Are ex-christians so weak that they need "soft words"? Shall I condescend and patronize? Shall I regard ex-christians as little delicate children?

 

Turning the other cheek is a principle against vengeance.

[Emme]

Are ex-christians so weak that they need "soft words"? Shall I condescend and patronize? Shall I regard ex-christians as little delicate children?

 

No, but you're going to get what you give. I thought I heard you talk about Karma in this very thread?

[Vigile]

Can you guys really decifer what BTDT is saying? All the scripture citations and christianese he writes with are hard as hell for me to unravel. It's like trying to make sense of Ezekiel.

[Ouroboros]

Are ex-christians so weak that they need "soft words"? Shall I condescend and patronize? Shall I regard ex-christians as little delicate children?

 

Turning the other cheek is a principle against vengeance.

This clearly shows your complete ignorance and stupidity.

 

It's not about the object of your behavior, but it's the measurement with which you are measured. If Jesus told you to turn the other cheek, and that you are to treat others the way you want to be treated, and when it comes to a harsh situation for you and you don't follow Jesus's word... it proves who YOU are. It's the stick, where you show your character (which you obviously lack).

[Alice]

Are ex-christians so weak that they need "soft words"? Shall I condescend and patronize? Shall I regard ex-christians as little delicate children?

 

You still going on about this? I think you are making something out of nothing ... on arrival you came across as a bit rude and a little arrogant and met with some hostility. You say you came here for respectful discussion ~ I would think it's not a matter of soft words indicating that you regard us as weak ~ it is simply a case of a respectful tone producing a respectful response. Now you try and turn the tables ~ making your behaviour our responsibility!

 

Why not leave this theme now, and have that respectful conversation you say you desire?

[Ouroboros]

Can you guys really decifer what BTDT is saying? All the scripture citations and christianese he writes with are hard as hell for me to unravel. It's like trying to make sense of Ezekiel.

Not always. He's hiding behind cryptic language, plus I think he's a bit schizo...

[been there done that]

I haven't given anger and hostility.

 

If I do not happily accept anger, hostility, ridicule, and curses, there is no need for anyone to be unhappy and object that I am not ecstatic about the situation. I do not need "soft words",...I'M ARROGANT (cannot be harmed or damaged).

[BlueGiant]

BTDT, you are exactly the kind of person that Joanna came here to apologize for, even though she bears no fault for your actions.

 

Don't worry, I forgive you, BTDT. I know anger, rage, and hurt as well as anyone here, and we can transcend such things, for a time. Change and challenge is a scary and angering thing, especially when it targets the core of your identity, threatening to rip it out and discard it like so much trash, not only stating that it is worthless, but you risking realizing that what is a core building block is not only doubtful, but wrong, causing you to change. I've been there and it's okay. It is through that kind of risk that we grow, that we crash through our limitations and become better.

 

It's okay, your pride, arrogance, anger and hatred shown here is understandable and I see that it is your struggle, a part of your path to come closer to that which is truly divine, and you are forgiven by one here.

[Alice]

I haven't given anger and hostility.

 

If I do not happily accept anger, hostility, ridicule, and curses, there is no need for anyone to be unhappy and object that I am not ecstatic about the situation. I do not need "soft words",...I'M ARROGANT (cannot be harmed or damaged).

 

What you have been is thoughtless, rude and unfriendly ~ maybe these are all simpy components of the arrogance you boast. This is strange behaviour for someone who says they want respectful discussion.

 

Maybe you have a different view of respectful discusion to the generally held view here.

 

I am familiar with the idea that we each create our own response ~ but this is generally a cop out when cited by people who have poled up to someone else's establisment and not taken the time to approach people with respect and thoughtfulness.

[Emme]

I haven't given anger and hostility.

 

Admittedly, I fail to take The Lord's advice to not give to dogs (mad dogs) what is holy, LEST THEY TURN and 'rip you apart' (no disrespect, but you do militantly and recklessly hate/resent people).

 

So go ahead and make it a lifelong habit to persecute, crucify, hate, and resent people, but as long as you choose to be partisan (non-generic) and limit yourself to the requirements of a label, the only thing that I'm sorry about is that you don't realize that you are your own victim (poetic justice, what goes around comes around).

 

You are calling us mad dogs and accuse us of militant and reckless hate and resentment. You say we persecute, crucify, hate and resent people. You say that we are victims. I think that's hostile.

Wouldn't you agree?

[chefranden]

Can you guys really decifer what BTDT is saying? All the scripture citations and christianese he writes with are hard as hell for me to unravel. It's like trying to make sense of Ezekiel.

 

 

Hey Now! No need to be mean to Ezekiel, he never posts here.

 

You are just having trouble because this is an unusual dialect of Christianese, spoken mostly in house churches and obscure cults.

[chefranden]

I have no need to avoid the wrath of any man 1. (I am arrogant and have strength of conviction, often jealously resented as pigheaded/stubborn).

 

I didn't call anybody a dog as in 'less than human' or 'lowlife' (certainly not, we were ALL initially made in the image of God). The "Lions" in the Den were bombarding me with endless hostility like MAD dogs 2. (no useful discussion possible).

3. Turning the other cheek is a principle against vengeance.

 

1. Ya that's what I said. So what are you whining about?

 

2. Well that is what happens when you are pigheaded. Once you are one of the few that have the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Then everyone else should just shut up and murmur, "yes sha masser Been". That would be what you call useful discussion I suppose. But that is not discussion that's a blog. Good Web Master Dave provides a space for you to do that.

 

3. Really? Ya got any scripture to back that up with? I notice that though you spew scripture left and right you don't provide any here. This gives me the impression that this is your own spin. This is problematic because you have already made clear that the spin of humans is what has messed Christianity up, and now here you are willing to spin and present it as a teaching.

[Thackerie]

Can you guys really decifer what BTDT is saying? All the scripture citations and christianese he writes with are hard as hell for me to unravel. It's like trying to make sense of Ezekiel.

 

No! I read through that last one three times and couldn't understand what point he was trying to make (other than the usual unsubstantiated assertion that "God exists no matter what anyone on earth does, says, or thinks (externally, He exists...PERIOD)." Anyway, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who can't decipher this stuff; I was afraid I'd had a stroke or something.

[Antlerman]

I haven't given anger and hostility.

 

If I do not happily accept anger, hostility, ridicule, and curses, there is no need for anyone to be unhappy and object that I am not ecstatic about the situation. I do not need "soft words",...I'M ARROGANT (cannot be harmed or damaged).

I'll address your other points later, but I quoted scripture to you so you would respect it's principle. The "soft words" reference was from Proverbs 15:

 

A gentle answer turns away wrath,

But a harsh word stirs up anger.

The tongue of the wise makes knowledge acceptable,

But the mouth of fools spouts folly.

The eyes of the LORD are in every place,

Watching the evil and the good.

A soothing tongue is a tree of life,

But perversion in it crushes the spirit.

The message of turn the other cheek is to diffuse the situation. Pray for those who despise you, do good to those who mistreat you, etc are all words of Jesus. Want to know why? Because it doesn't do you or anyone any good to escalate situations. Acting with grace is the better road than acting with anger. It's not playing the martyr, it's understanding the power of peace over anger within yourself.

 

Forgive me, but you seem to fail to understand this very basic principle of the Christian message. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"? It's pretty foundational, and one that those who follow a religion don't understand because, why? They have no internal change. It's all cloaks put on the exterior. That you get mad, is at least honest, so I'll give you that. But taking the higher ground is always preferable to war. Don't you think?

 

I'll address your other points separately.

 

 

 

P.S. I find it amazing that ExChristians understand the Christian teachings better than Christians themselves. Maybe they should quit going to church and come here instead? (I think it's because they get too hung up on the idea of "truth", instead of how to live).

[Misterspock1]

Can you guys really decifer what BTDT is saying? All the scripture citations and christianese he writes with are hard as hell for me to unravel. It's like trying to make sense of Ezekiel.

 

No! I read through that last one three times and couldn't understand what point he was trying to make (other than the usual unsubstantiated assertion that "God exists no matter what anyone on earth does, says, or thinks (externally, He exists...PERIOD)." Anyway, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who can't decipher this stuff; I was afraid I'd had a stroke or something.

 

Remember, though, he's throwing "pearls before swine." It's not our fault that we are so pig-headed that we don't understand. I'm just waiting for him to adopt the passage in Matthew(?) where Jesus tells his disciples to "shake the dust off their feet" and move on to the next town.

 

Seriously, though, he comes in here and plays the victim card right off the bat, calls us names, and shoves Christian rhetoric in our faces and then complains if we come back with a bit of hostility? Sheesh, I'm not even going to try to reason with him.

[Antlerman]

Amos 5:21

"I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies".

 

 

That's right, God doesn't need praise, compliments, or flattery, nor does He need our 'service'. He warns against hypocrisy, public prayer, solemn worship services, etc.. God is not needy of anything (including money or any of our 'self effort' works). We should be mindful of Him, respectful, and reverent (not reject Him, why should anyone want to???). We should love each other as fellow human beings (extend each other human rights and peaceful coexistence), but we should not love each other MORE than we love OURSELVES (no icon/primadonna), I have no overwhelming reason to love myself, I have no need to show respect to myself (nor do I need others to show me respect, I do not depend on others to make me whole).

Again, I being the "explainer" of scripture... Matthew 22:35 ff.

One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,

"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"

And He said to him, " YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

"This is the great and foremost commandment.

"The second is like it, '

YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF

.'

"On these two commandments depend

the whole Law and the Prophets

."

 

I guess if I believed scripture as you say you do, there's a pretty darned compelling reason to love yourself right there! It is of equal importance to your spiritual life as loving God according to Jesus! Does loving yourself and loving others as yourself make you whole human being? You bet your sweet Bible it does! According to this above, if you don't you have broken the entire Word of God (the Law and Prophets)!

 

Why? Because if you have love in your heart first, a love that fills and overflows you, it will flow out of you to others in the world! That's what this is teaching. Love of God (life itself) is first; forgiving, accepting, and loving yourself as part of life (God), and through this comes joy and love to others, acting in ways that flow naturally from a spirit of love, for "love works no ill," "love is the fulfilling of the law". Why? Because if you love someone, you will not seek to harm them, steal, lie, kill, etc. Those things are inconsistent with love. But if you don't love yourself, love doesn't live in you. It's that simple, and that profound.

 

Again, the non-Christian understands this essential spiritual principle, where the Christian does not. Amazing, isn't it?

 

 

Are ex-christians so weak that they need "soft words"? Shall I condescend and patronize? Shall I regard ex-christians as little delicate children?

You can choose to act however you feel driven to. But then you should also not complain if someone slugs you in response. The folks here are anything but delicate children. The choice is yours.

 

 

P.S. Where's Joanna??? This was her thread, and I'd sure like to hear her thoughts to all of this.

[been there done that]

This is my last post.

 

When an ex-christian (one who no longer adheres to christianity and it's bible) hides behind scripture in order to oppose/convict/accuse someone of doing something wrong (attack), all reasoning has gone out the window.

 

Hiding behind the bible in order to attack someone and remain blameless is not a mark of great courage or decency, AND it is exactly what christians do to each other (use the bible to attack each other, and, as if that's not bloodthirsty enough, they also use it to remain blameless).

 

Right from the start, I made it no secret that I am not a 'textual' person (scripture does not define me). The Pharisees were defined by text in heart, soul, mind, and body. Their devotion and persona were according to a script (SCRIPTural). If you ever develop enough courage to free yourself (a human being) from 'THE BOOK', you will have redeemed your humanity.

 

Even war is war, but using the bible to wipe the blood off your hands is inhuman (if you offend humanity, you offend God).

[gradstu09]

Can you guys really decifer what BTDT is saying? All the scripture citations and christianese he writes with are hard as hell for me to unravel. It's like trying to make sense of Ezekiel.

 

I find his deliberate self-dehumanization fascinating.

[Neon Genesis]

Whatever happened to Joanna? Did she leave the site?

[Taphophilia]

No one ever guessed who Joanna sounded like.

 

Who I think:

 

Hint:

 

The first three letters of my user name.

[Ouroboros]

Whatever happened to Joanna? Did she leave the site?

I hope not. I liked her.

[Dhampir]

No one ever guessed who Joanna sounded like.

 

Who I think:

 

Hint:

 

The first three letters of my user name.

I had forgotten about TAP, cool peoples that, anyhoo, I already gave it away. Thanks for playing though

[Antlerman]

This is my last post.

 

When an ex-christian (one who no longer adheres to christianity and it's bible) hides behind scripture in order to oppose/convict/accuse someone of doing something wrong (attack), all reasoning has gone out the window.

 

Hiding behind the bible in order to attack someone and remain blameless is not a mark of great courage or decency, AND it is exactly what christians do to each other (use the bible to attack each other, and, as if that's not bloodthirsty enough, they also use it to remain blameless).

 

Right from the start, I made it no secret that I am not a 'textual' person (scripture does not define me). The Pharisees were defined by text in heart, soul, mind, and body. Their devotion and persona were according to a script (SCRIPTural). If you ever develop enough courage to free yourself (a human being) from 'THE BOOK', you will have redeemed your humanity.

 

Even war is war, but using the bible to wipe the blood off your hands is inhuman (if you offend humanity, you offend God).

Well, that was interesting. I didn't realize I was attacking him. Sounds to me like someone has some pretty deep spiritual issues. Doesn't recognize the beam in his own eye. Refuses kindness and calls it an attack. Oh well, he has his hell and I pity him in it.

 

Back to Joanna. Joanna, you there?

[Thurisaz]

Can you guys really decifer what BTDT is saying? All the scripture citations and christianese he writes with are hard as hell for me to unravel. It's like trying to make sense of Ezekiel.

 

I've long reverted to just scanning this thread for postings that might possibly be of interest, or worth thinking about. That per definitionem excludes anything this morontheist shits out of its pie hole.