An Apology For Apologists

[Thackerie]

Piprus -- Nope, not a former poster. I'd never come across this site until recently.

 

I completely agree with you that a compelling story needs no apologetics.

 

 

Thackerie -- Just as a person can feel responsible for actions carried out by their nation, village or family against another person or group of people, I feel responsible for the wrongs done by apologists, since I participated in apologetics, as well. Just as an American can say, "I'm sorry for the wrongs committed by my government," I should be allowed to state that I'm sorry for apologists as a whole. Certainly, it may seem indirect, or even feeble, but it can also be considered a start; groups are made up of individuals, and change cannot come about to a group until an individual stands up and says, "This is wrong."

 

I understand your point. I think that our government has committed a lot of wrongs, so I take what direct action I can, feeble though it may be — by participating in the political process, expressing my concerns in public forums and directly to the government, and before I was disabled participating in protests and demonstrations.

 

I hope you are also telling apologists directly that what they are doing is wrong and not just apologizing on ex-christian sites.

[RevOxley_501]

I hope you are also telling apologists directly that what they are doing is wrong and not just apologizing on ex-christian sites.

 

excellent point.

[Neon Genesis]

Luke 9:23 in the RSV

 

"And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me".

 

The "word of truth" (bible, 2 Timothy 2:15, Ephesians 1:13, John 14:6) is 2000/1900 years old. We should LIVE BY every word that PROCEEDS from the mouth of God ("sword of the spirit", Ephesians 6:17) so we can "walk by the SPIRIT" (Galatians 5:16), not mere faith and also have our conscience purified (Hebrews 9:14) after we receive "living water" baptism of God's spirit (John 7:38, Revelation 7:16, Acts 1:5), but we must first carry our own cross.

Since Jesus didn't say that the greatest commandment was to have faith but that the greatest commandment was to love your neighbor as yourself, and if love is greater than faith as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13:13, why do we need to believe in god at all? And what about in Mark 10:45 where Jesus says he doesn't want worship?

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.

Welcome to the site, Joanna! You seem more sincere than most of your other brethren and I look forward to reading more of your posts.

[chefranden]

Joanna,

1. Earthly teachers interfere with God's true message (I am not TEACHING, I am only EXPLAINING), but mankind likes to be puffed up "teachers" and followers of "teachers"/icons.

 

2. The Father's "forever" name is "I am who I am" (christians play puffed up academic/scholarly games with obsolete names like Jehovah, Elohim, etc.) and the only way we can truly relate to and identify with God is to be likewise (I am who I am, knowing who we really are and being that way, of course we should also love Him and respect each other with human rights, but we should NOT love each other MORE than we love ourselves).

 

3 God is very practical, but human nature is not...

Ephesians 5:17...

 

"Therefore do not be foolish, but UNDERSTAND what the will of the Lord is"

 

EXAMPLE...I did not SAY, it was INTERPRETED that

"The rest of you weren't mature enough--you just caved in. I'm better than you."

 

4. Maybe other people "FEEL" that I am better than them, but they are mistaken (I also don't like false accusations).

 

1. Thanks I needed a good laugh this morning.

 

2. FYI YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah is the word that some scholars read I am who I am from. Just thought I'd throw that in since your anti-scholarship scholarship seems a bit lacking at least in this post.

 

3. How do you know that God (ChristianGod I presume) is practical? On what do you base that -- other than your prejudice of course? Let see God screwed up on Adam and Eve and then waited until he had oddles of screw ups and then drowned them like kittens in a bag. Well except that he missed a few. Then he says oops, I guess I won't do that again. So the few grow into 6+ billion screw ups.

 

Weren't there some more practical options? Well sure. The best would have been to kill Adam and Eve and start over. He could have done that. If needed he could have kept repeating until he got a couple that didn't like the fruit, or who questioned the idea of a talking snake with legs. That would have saved every one including Jesus a lot of grief. But then maybe Adam and Eve was the best he could do.

 

Now why a flood to the tippy tops of the mountains to kill all the screw ups? Why didn't they all just drop dead like Aniniaus and Syphira? Well perhaps he hadn't learned that trick yet. Now I suppose that a flood to the tippy tops is a great spectacle even when it mostly kills your audience. It was something a conceited God could pat himself on the back for. However, practical? Meh, not so much.

 

4. Don't worry I don't feel you are better than me. I'm starting to get the opposite feeling, which isn't fair since I've only read this one post of yours.

 

However, this post does indicate that you are probably an arrogant TrueChristian™ prick. I'm guessing that you are one of myriads of folks that have a TrueTruth™ so true, that even other Christians may as well be Muslims for all the good they get out of Christianity.

 

Edit:

 

1. I have to revisit this even though it was damn funny. What the hell do you think a teacher does? Why a teacher explains. If you were not teaching the only thing you would do is quote scripture without comment. As soon as you comment you are teaching. If you are really anti-teaching shut the fuck up, because all commentary is adding (subtracting) to the word of God.

 

Remember as it is written, "It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

[Skankboy]

The "word of truth" (bible, 2 Timothy 2:15, Ephesians 1:13, John 14:6) is 2000/1900 years old. We should LIVE BY every word that PROCEEDS from the mouth of God ("sword of the spirit", Ephesians 6:17) so we can "walk by the SPIRIT" (Galatians 5:16), not mere faith and also have our conscience purified (Hebrews 9:14) after we receive "living water" baptism of God's spirit (John 7:38, Revelation 7:16, Acts 1:5), but we must first carry our own cross.

 

So you attempt to live by EVERY WORD of (your favorite version of) the Bible? So I assume you don't wear clothes of mixed fabrics, or eat shellfish or have any tatoos?

[chefranden]

Most modern bible versions are not true to God's message because they were changed to be politically correct for marketing/sales purposes. Even the KJV was changed to be consistent with The Church Of England.

 

Example

Acts 12:4 in the KJV says "EASTER"

 

but the RSV correctly translates "PASSOVER".

 

It also correctly translates עלמה as young woman, rather than virgin (Isaiah 7:14)

 

It would appear as if you ought to read only the original languages*. Admittedly the RSV is a decent translation. However it would appear that nothing but the original would be "true to God's message". Funny thing is you can't get the original text even in the original languages. You are screwed.

 

*Of course this would mean you would have to learn something and be subject to a teacher, who would most likely be human.

[Guest Joanna]

Yes, Thackerie, I do directly tell apologists where they are erring -- but only when I sense that the message would be taken to heart. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.

Been There Done That -- As one who is also interested in translations and linguistics, I would say that your posts remind me of a well-intentioned tourist, who, with guide book in hand, goes to a foreign country, stands on the corner of a busy thoroughfare, and immediately begins to read their page of set phrases at the locals. When they shrug and scratch their heads at the tourist's attempts to speak their language, the tourist decides to try another approach, and speaks LOUDER, with EMPHASIS.

 

Dhampir -- Even identical twins can come up with opposing conclusions, much more so if they grew up in different environments.

 

 

 

I'd like to address the questions put to me yesterday; however I can see how any answer I come up with might not be satisfactory for those who have asked them. I believe that God is a God of answers. I also believe that different answers are needed for different people. Not only that, but different answers are needed for that same person, depending where they are on their journey. My "answers", that is, the ones that have been given to me, might not be useful to you, any more than a mitten that was knitted for me would be too small for your hand. So before I share my thoughts here, please keep this in mind.

[Antlerman]

1. I have to revisit this even though it was damn funny. What the hell do you think a teacher does? Why a teacher explains. If you were not teaching the only thing you would do is quote scripture without comment. As soon as you comment you are teaching. If you are really anti-teaching shut the fuck up, because all commentary is adding (subtracting) to the word of God.

I'm still trying to wrap my puny mind around this fine bit of reasoning. Wait, if you quote scripture and add an explanation of it, then you are a... wait, would you be a commentator? No, because they are just people who comment their thoughts about something, like a critic. In other words, stating their opinions. But if you are explaining what it means, by gum... you're a teacher!

 

Nope, my original laughter was accurately based. Once again, "I'm not teaching scripture, I'm explaining it". I think we should close all our institutions of higher "explainin'" and just set up schools patterned after the Madrasahs where they just memorize scripture instead of actually learning anything. Man... such are the fruits....

[Thurisaz]

Been There Done That -- As one who is also interested in translations and linguistics, I would say that your posts remind me of a well-intentioned tourist, who, with guide book in hand, goes to a foreign country, stands on the corner of a busy thoroughfare, and immediately begins to read their page of set phrases at the locals. When they shrug and scratch their heads at the tourist's attempts to speak their language, the tourist decides to try another approach, and speaks LOUDER, with EMPHASIS.

 

A good analogy Joanna. Yup they keep claiming they're telling us something new and supposedly shocking and loaded with the power to reconvert us, when all they babble is the same old shit.

 

Sheesh. And they still wonder why we point at them and laugh.

[Antlerman]

Been There Done That -- As one who is also interested in translations and linguistics, I would say that your posts remind me of a well-intentioned tourist, who, with guide book in hand, goes to a foreign country, stands on the corner of a busy thoroughfare, and immediately begins to read their page of set phrases at the locals. When they shrug and scratch their heads at the tourist's attempts to speak their language, the tourist decides to try another approach, and speaks LOUDER, with EMPHASIS.

Oh that's beautiful! A wonderful analogy.

 

I'd like to address the questions put to me yesterday; however I can see how any answer I come up with might not be satisfactory for those who have asked them. I believe that God is a God of answers. I also believe that different answers are needed for different people. Not only that, but different answers are needed for that same person, depending where they are on their journey. My "answers", that is, the ones that have been given to me, might not be useful to you, any more than a mitten that was knitted for me would be too small for your hand. So before I share my thoughts here, please keep this in mind.

What you do is answer what is in your heart. That's the truth, and whether someone sees things the same way or not is not so important as the heart in which it is said. Something the tourist above doesn't seem to grasp (if he in fact was beyond needing to be taught, he would understand this).

[BlueGiant]

Joanna, glad to meet you. You have nothing to apologize for yourself, and if apologizing for others you have no control over makes you feel better then, thanks, for you say what they cannot. If nothing else, seems you have class, something that is in woefully short supply nowadays.

 

I am interested to hear your thoughts on deity. From what you've said, your view is nothing if not interesting. I've found that gods, like people, are frequently bigger than a few simple answers and choice quotes from text.

 

BTDT: I'd ask why you are so combative, shouting and asserting, and admonishing someone who actually came here showing the humility that apologists like you claim to possess, but which fruit I have yet to see, let alone taste. Also, Bible quotes themselves aren't evidence (well unless we are getting into literary criticism), I mean, after all, the devil uses them for his own ends, along with despots, tyrants and apologists. Words are a tool, the good or evil they do is in the hands of the user, like all tools.

[Ouroboros]

BTDT,

 

I feel sorry for you. To be so insecure and scared, it can't be easy. You should seek some help. Some therapy could actually do you some good. I'm afraid we won't give it to you, so it's more self-destructive behavior of you to come here than to go to a doctor. So I urge you. Get help, before you go totally bonkers. (It already sounds like you're awfully close.)

 

/H/

[chefranden]

I used to feel like apologizing (until 1. I spent too much time here at the Lions Den). Every time I come here, I'm verbally ripped apart no matter how peaceful and helpful I try to be. 2. I say "helpful" because I realize that the reason you are all angry is that you really wanted to know the creator in truth but were betrayed by all the lies of Christianity (true Jesus worship/devotion was called the "Way", the word "christian" is likely Roman slang). I was betrayed also, but I didn't become bitter and join the 'let me lick my wounds forever' crowd and devote my life to ragging people out.

 

1. 14 posts

 

2. Whereas you, saying basically the same shit, are not spewing lies. The "I HAVE THE TRUTH" attitude is not being peaceful in this forum. And by the by, those receiving "help" get to determine if it is actually helpful, or just another crock of shit. We've seen many TrueChristians™ here. In fact I've never met an Untrue Christian. They are all TrueChristians™ -- just ask them. Are you a TrueChristian™? Like you are going to say no.

 

So why should we listen to you rather than the others? Do you have sufficient faith to throw a mountain into the sea? Shit I'd be impressed if you could move a 5 pound stone 5 ft with faith. What are your credentials outside of an attack on those other liars? They lie, therefore I am telling the truth just doesn't cut with me as a credential i.e. something that makes you creditable.

 

Admittedly, I fail to take The Lord's advice to not give to dogs (mad dogs) what is holy, LEST THEY TURN and 'rip you apart' (no disrespect, but you do militantly and recklessly hate/resent people). I've never done anything to you, but it seems that I have been chosen to receive all your frustrations instead of you dealing with your own business.

 

See you are fucking sinner. Not a good reason to trust your teaching. Sure you've never done anything to me, other than call me a mad dog. But it is the nature of mad dogs to rip you a new asshole. Therefore why are you surprised when you are ripped. Seriously sometimes I think someone else is typing for you, because you don't understand what is coming out of your own fingers. On the other hand I suppose you could be a genuine idiot.

 

Jesus also said that before you can have the ability to truly follow Him, you first have to learn to be just and "carry your own cross" instead of taking your frustrations out on other people and making your problems theirs.

 

Gee, one wonders then why you do all this whining. If I read you as a snooty prick, that is your cross to bear. So bear it and shut up.

 

And another thing. I quit looking to follow Jesus years ago. Therefore I don't have to bear a cross. Therefore I don't have to not take out my frustration on you. If you come acting like a prick, and you are, I can say, "Hey, you are acting like a prick." I don't have to worry about it fucking up my relationship with some not there person. It's genius, I'm telling ya!

 

So go ahead and make it a lifelong habit to persecute, crucify, hate, and resent people, but as long as you choose to be partisan (non-generic) and limit yourself to the requirements of a label, the only thing that I'm sorry about is that you don't realize that you are your own victim (poetic justice, what goes around comes around).

 

Thanks I've been waiting for your permission to persecute, crucify, hate and resent pricks! I've got the wood and the nails all ready for when you stop by. I'm sure your sanctimonious speechifying will sound all the more important from up there and you will be following Jesus to boot.

[Emme]

Joanna, I'm sorry this thread got hijacked. I do think your OP was kind of cute, even though I don't understand why you should have to apologize on behalf of other people.

 

Been there done that:

 

I used to feel like apologizing (until I spent too much time here at the Lions Den). Every time I come here, I'm verbally ripped apart no matter how peaceful and helpful I try to be. I say "helpful" because I realize that the reason you are all angry is that you really wanted to know the creator in truth but were betrayed by all the lies of Christianity (true Jesus worship/devotion was called the "Way", the word "christian" is likely Roman slang). I was betrayed also, but I didn't become bitter and join the 'let me lick my wounds forever' crowd and devote my life to ragging people out.

 

I personally don't care two cents about "ragging people out". I care about my fellow ex-christians and myself, and our well-being. This is a place to vent, if you don't like it - you're welcome to leave. I have no interest to know the creator in truth, since I am convinced he is a mythical creature. You are not being helpful at all, but maybe we can be of help to you? Perhaps you come to this site because something about christianity just doesn't feel a-okay? In that case you'll find support here.

 

Admittedly, I fail to take The Lord's advice to not give to dogs (mad dogs) what is holy, LEST THEY TURN and 'rip you apart' (no disrespect, but you do militantly and recklessly hate/resent people). I've never done anything to you, but it seems that I have been chosen to receive all your frustrations instead of you dealing with your own business.

 

Maybe you should listen to the good lord.

You have not been chosen to be ripped apart. In coming to this site YOU chose to be ripped apart. This is a site for ex-christians. How would you feel if I came to your favourite christian site and started preaching about evolution? I understand that logic and reasoning scares you, since you so seldom see and use them. Don't blame us for your own need to cause trouble.

 

Jesus also said that before you can have the ability to truly follow Him, you first have to learn to be just and "carry your own cross" instead of taking your frustrations out on other people and making your problems theirs.

 

Then do what jesus said, don't make our problems yours.

 

So go ahead and make it a lifelong habit to persecute, crucify, hate, and resent people, but as long as you choose to be partisan (non-generic) and limit yourself to the requirements of a label, the only thing that I'm sorry about is that you don't realize that you are your own victim (poetic justice, what goes around comes around).

 

Take out your log first, hypocrite.

[Purple]

Luke 9:23 in the RSV

 

"And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me".

 

The "word of truth" (bible, 2 Timothy 2:15, Ephesians 1:13, John 14:6) is 2000/1900 years old. We should LIVE BY every word that PROCEEDS from the mouth of God ("sword of the spirit", Ephesians 6:17) so we can "walk by the SPIRIT" (Galatians 5:16), not mere faith and also have our conscience purified (Hebrews 9:14) after we receive "living water" baptism of God's spirit (John 7:38, Revelation 7:16, Acts 1:5), but we must first carry our own cross.

 

All verses are from the RSV.

 

Most modern bible versions are not true to God's message because they were changed to be politically correct for marketing/sales purposes. Even the KJV was changed to be consistent with The Church Of England.

 

Example

Acts 12:4 in the KJV says "EASTER"

 

but the RSV correctly translates "PASSOVER".

 

You didn't say you were addressing this to me, but I'll assume you were.

 

You address the one verse ya got right and ignore everything else I said. Let me say this, that verse I was wrong about.

 

Now its your turn, make a new thread and address everything else I said, I do not want to derail this thread anymore, Joanna seems like a perfectly lovely person and we shouldn't really be raining on her parade.

[pitchu]

People (like BTDT) come here so often with the misunderstanding that we left because we were hurt by christians. It must be the easiest way for them to explain away our "Ex-ness." They think we were just thin-skinned people who couldn't take the insensitivity doled out toward us by those who were not TrueChristians.

 

That many of us came under fire from these brethren may be true, but it's rarely the reason for our exiting. It seems impossible for some of our visitors to grasp that our wounding and suffering was inflicted directly by the dogma itself, which could not co-exist with our struggle to be fully human.

[been there done that]

Pitchu,

 

No, I don't have the misunderstanding that anyone here left because they were hurt by christians, I know very well that the dogma is dehumanizing. A "Christian" is not fully human because they have relinquished their humanity in order to become "A" Christian first (their humanity has been put 'on the back burner' and is in conflict with their Christianity).

 

I have offered many alternate explanations of verses, but the most meaningful of them in order to end the "struggle to be fully human" is that "I am who I am" warns us about "self abasement" and wants us to establish a conscience (being conscious of a "self").

 

But this simple understanding will not end the struggle, it is the abandonment of anger and hostility that will end the struggle. Your notice of this identity crisis is very insightful. When the "struggle" ends, one might become somewhat "arrogant" (as some have noticed).

[Brother Jeff]

I have offered many alternate explanations of verses, but the most meaningful of them in order to end the "struggle to be fully human" is that "I am who I am" warns us about "self abasement" and wants us to establish a conscience (being conscious of a "self").

 

But this simple understanding will not end the struggle, it is the abandonment of anger and hostility that will end the struggle. Your notice of this identity crisis is very insightful. When the "struggle" ends, one might become somewhat "arrogant" (as some have noticed).

I am going to be angry and hostile. If you don't like it, well, tough shit! Your god wants us to develop a conscience? Have you read the Old Testament? How many thousands of people is your god responsible for slaughtering (women, children, babies)? Your god is the one who needs to develop a conscience!

 

Have you read the New Testament? Your god murders people simply for lying to him (See Acts 5). As far as I'm concerned, you can take your murderous, genocidal maniac god and shove him up your ass! And you can take your arrogant attitude and shove it in the exact same place!

[Vigile]

Somehow it's difficult to stiffle the rising snickers when an adult with invisible friends makes an attempt to psychoanalyze us and dare offer up advice on living.

[Antlerman]

Pitchu,

 

No, I don't have the misunderstanding that anyone here left because they were hurt by christians, I know very well that the dogma is dehumanizing. A "Christian" is not fully human because they have relinquished their humanity in order to become "A" Christian first (their humanity has been put 'on the back burner' and is in conflict with their Christianity).

 

I have offered many alternate explanations of verses, but the most meaningful of them in order to end the "struggle to be fully human" is that "I am who I am" warns us about "self abasement" and wants us to establish a conscience (being conscious of a "self").

 

But this simple understanding will not end the struggle, it is the abandonment of anger and hostility that will end the struggle. Your notice of this identity crisis is very insightful. When the "struggle" ends, one might become somewhat "arrogant" (as some have noticed).

Let me toss this at you to see what you will do with it. Jesus railing against the Pharisees. How much like, or unlike us would you make that?

[Misterspock1]

You know, BTDT, you remind me of myself from about five years ago. When I was having some of my most serious questions, some of my most serious doubts, I desperately tried to cover them up because they were not acceptable in the circle I was in. The way I did this was argue all the more in favor of the very things I was doubting, especially with people who didn't believe it, and my medium of choice was message boards, a more impersonal approach. Hopefully this would make me look to other Christians like I still had faith, and would maybe even help me convince myself if nothing else. Of course, it wasn't that much afterward that I finally admitted that I no longer believed it.

 

I know we are not the same person, but I can't help but wonder. Perhaps you have some doubts deep down that you are also afraid to admit? Perhaps you have some questions that have never been answered, yet you desperately try to force an answer where there is none? There can be so much peace in simply saying, "I don't know." Just a thought.

[been there done that]

Antlerman,

 

I'm not sure why the "Pharisees" were brought into this (I can only assume that you think I am making comparison to ex-christians or aetheists, CERTAINLY NOT!).

 

My understanding is that they were ancient christianity (ancient televangelists, scholars/pastors, etc.) that misled 'the people' to become "twice a child of hell" (Matthew 23:15) as they themselves were. John The Baptist and Jesus characterized/called them a "Brood of Vipers" because they did this.

 

By the grace of God, we escaped these teachings (Christianity is the modern day Pharisees) because we were 'stubborn and pigheaded' (the world mocks what it resents) and insisted on retrieving our full humanity.

 

I see absolutely no comparison between the Pharisees and anybody here (if that's what you were getting at).

[pitchu]

But this simple understanding will not end the struggle, it is the abandonment of anger and hostility that will end the struggle. Your notice of this identity crisis is very insightful. When the "struggle" ends, one might become somewhat "arrogant" (as some have noticed).

 

When the struggle ends, one might become somewhat dead.

 

Struggle is integral to being a living human. Life is struggle.

[been there done that]

Pitchu,

 

As long as you choose to equate life with never ending struggle you will always be struggling and never achieve full humanity.

 

"Without struggle, there can be no progress" (Frederick Douglas)

 

Progress (triumph, victory, overcoming, etc.) is the goal, struggle must only be a temporary process.

 

In order for the destination to be reached there must be a journey (learning).

 

 

There are many types of logic (mathematical, scientific, literary, etc.), but they are seldom kept 'in context'.

[mwc]

As long as you choose to equate life with never ending struggle you will always be struggling and never achieve full humanity.

 

"Without struggle, there can be no progress" (Frederick Douglas)

 

Progress (triumph, victory, overcoming, etc.) is the goal, struggle must only be a temporary process.

 

In order for the destination to be reached there must be a journey (learning).

 

Uh, yeah, hey jackass, I noticed that you haven't started a new thread to address this tidbit yet:

"(true Jesus worship/devotion was called the "Way", the word "christian" is likely Roman slang)."

 

Pitchu, I'm sorry to hear jackass thinks you're not fully human.

 

mwc