An Apology For Apologists

[Guest Joanna]

Hello again --

 

 

It's funny, how our punctuation can be as recognizable as our personalities. For awhile I was interested in handwriting and literary analysis; writing can be as distinct as a fingerprint.

 

I currently have no desire to "de-convert", as they say, although I have divested myself of the bulk of the religion that calls itself Christianity. I also don't wish to debate anyone, as I know that although it can be a great intellectual stimulus, it doesn't help anyone's condition.

 

What that leaves me with in a place like this, I've no idea.

 

All I know is, I felt compassion for those who were hurt or confused by Christian apologists, and so wrote my apology. I believe this compassion ultimately comes from God.

 

 

 

Thanks for your understanding,

 

 

J

[Dhampir]

Hello again --

 

 

It's funny, how our punctuation can be as recognizable as our personalities. For awhile I was interested in handwriting and literary analysis; writing can be as distinct as a fingerprint.

 

I currently have no desire to "de-convert", as they say, although I have divested myself of the bulk of the religion that calls itself Christianity. I also don't wish to debate anyone, as I know that although it can be a great intellectual stimulus, it doesn't help anyone's condition.

 

What that leaves me with in a place like this, I've no idea.

 

All I know is, I felt compassion for those who were hurt or confused by Christian apologists, and so wrote my apology. I believe this compassion ultimately comes from God.

 

 

 

Thanks for your understanding,

 

 

J

 

HA! HAHA! HA! Deja-freakin'-vu!

[Piprus]

Well, Er, OK to your OP and the follow-ups. I'm still waiting to see if you're a former poster here, but I'm not getting any vibes on that right now.

 

My only thing is, why are you trying to apologize for the apologists, when you know damn well what the purpose of apologetics is? Apostle Paul has already established that it's okay to lie (violating the ten commands) when it suits the purpose of xianity. So why apologize for any of the historical inaccuracy, intellectual dishonesty, or logical fallacy of apologetic literature? None of that matters, so long as xianity is supported, for the glory of your imaginary dead-but-somehow-alive-spiritual leader. No need to apologize, so why do it?

 

The real truth is this: If your gospel story were so mighty, so truthful, so compelling in what it implies, it would need no apologists.

[Thackerie]

Not intending to be snarky here, but apologizing on behalf of other people, especially when those people aren't ready to apologize, is like substitutionary atonement -- i.e., meaningless. I think each individual should be responsible for his or her own -- and only his or her own -- transgressions and should atone for those transgressions by apologizing and "making it right" with the direct victim(s) of those transgressions.

 

Having noted that, however, I'll tell you the same thing I tell people who say they'll pray for me: "If it makes you feel better, go right ahead." Their prayers, like your apology, won't do me any good, but if they want to waste their time in order to get the warm fuzzies, it's no skin off my tushie, either.

[Guest Joanna]

Piprus -- Nope, not a former poster. I'd never come across this site until recently.

 

I completely agree with you that a compelling story needs no apologetics.

 

 

Thackerie -- Just as a person can feel responsible for actions carried out by their nation, village or family against another person or group of people, I feel responsible for the wrongs done by apologists, since I participated in apologetics, as well. Just as an American can say, "I'm sorry for the wrongs committed by my government," I should be allowed to state that I'm sorry for apologists as a whole. Certainly, it may seem indirect, or even feeble, but it can also be considered a start; groups are made up of individuals, and change cannot come about to a group until an individual stands up and says, "This is wrong."

[RevOxley_501]

Piprus -- Nope, not a former poster. I'd never come across this site until recently.

 

I completely agree with you that a compelling story needs no apologetics.

 

 

Thackerie -- Just as a person can feel responsible for actions carried out by their nation, village or family against another person or group of people, I feel responsible for the wrongs done by apologists, since I participated in apologetics, as well. Just as an American can say, "I'm sorry for the wrongs committed by my government," I should be allowed to state that I'm sorry for apologists as a whole. Certainly, it may seem indirect, or even feeble, but it can also be considered a start; groups are made up of individuals, and change cannot come about to a group until an individual stands up and says, "This is wrong."

 

 

as a person whom is often sorry for the things my government does...i can understand this view

[R. S. Martin]

Piprus -- Nope, not a former poster. I'd never come across this site until recently.

 

I completely agree with you that a compelling story needs no apologetics.

 

Is that why you stopped working in apologetics? If so, good for you for standing up for your convictions.

 

I'm not here because I was hurt by Christianity. I'm here because Christianity failed to answer key questions to qualify my status as a Christian. Sure, I've been hurt by Christians, and seriously. But that's not why I deconverted. The Christian religion is set up to absorb and absolve all evil committed by its members and leaders as weaknesses of the flesh. What Christianity does not do is answer key theological questions. I wonder if, as a former apologist who thinks the story is so compelling that it requires no apologists, you can answer my questions with better stuff than the regular stop-gap answers.

 

Regular stop-gap answers are things like:

• You have to take some things on faith.
  
• Faith is not logical.
  

I have noticed that my theology professors expect me to apply rigid rules of logic exactly as far as human knowledge and logic can go. I am graded on this. However, I am expected to begin with unknowable premises, i.e. that God exists and that the death of Jesus makes it possible for repentant sinners to get to heaven. No one ever explained to me that these things are not knowable or true. I had to find it out for myself. For my thesis I invesitigated and researched the basis on which a man of god made his statements. I concluded that he based them on nothing more than the voice of authority. And my thesis supervisor had a major problem with that.

 

His reaction to my conclusion gave me further evidence that my conclusion must be awfully close to the truth--much more so than I ever dreamed. I had assumed that his faith--and the faith of any Christian--was strong enough to withstand the doubts of a mere atheist. I'm a skeptical thinker by nature and he had taught me how to sharpen my skills. (I started the program as a Christian but deconverted partway through--not due to anything they did or said but because I didn't find anything to prove the existence of God or a need for Jesus' death. These had been lifelong questions.) I brought everything to bear on the situation that I could muster. I was in this for real. I WANTED TO UNDERSTAND. All the same, I'd run out of energy and my paper wasn't all that well written. But he picked stuff out of it and attacked me about it. Possibly my point was clearer than I realized.

 

But he doesn't call himself an apologist. He calls himself a systematic theologian. I was studying on the Masters level. We never talked much about apologists and I really don't know what they are. I read theologians like Paul Tillich and Doug Hall. For my thesis I studied Charles Hodge because I wanted to learn about fundamentalism. I also read Jerry Falwell and other fundamentalists of the twentieth century.

 

But not a single theologian--systematic or otherwise--explained these key premises on which the entire edifice of Christianity depends. Unless and until we have evidence for God's existence we cannot say with personal integrity that God exists. The same goes for statements of the Creed regarding Jesus' death and resurrection as it concerns salvation. Unless and until we can define sin and explain how Jesus' death saved us from it or in any other way had anything to do with it we cannot say with personal integrity that he is a saviour. Unless and until we determine for a fact that there is an afterlife--and that there is such a place as heaven--we cannot say with personal integrity that Jesus' death and resurrection made it possible for us to get to heaven, even if he saved us from sin. The way Christianity is preached these days, sin and hell seem not to be necessarily synonymous. Nor are salvation and heaven necessarily synonymous.

 

Without referencing age-old excuses like watch-maker theory for God's existence or atonement theory for Jesus' death AND without mimicking the Bible, can you answer these questions:

1. How do we know God exists?
   
2. Why did Jesus have to die?
   

Remember, I've read the Bible. I've done a degree in theology. AS HAVE MANY OTHERS HERE. Many here have been ministers or missionaries or in some other way involved in "the Lord's work." But when we really searched out the foundations of the religion we professed and trusted we found no foundations were there. We were left with the choice to lie about personal beliefs or deconvert. As stated, it was not so much bad treatment by Christians as it was bad theology that caused our deconversion. Christianity is custom-made for bad Christians--it does not withstand intellectual scrutiny.

 

You think the story is compelling and I'm still at the place where I want to see answers if answers exist. Let's hear the answers.

[Antlerman]

Joanna,

 

What is it about the behavior of other Christians that you feel needs apologizing for? How do you feel Christians should be behaving that they are not? What is it that you feel they are missing the boat on? If you were the spokesperson for Christianity as you see it, what would you rather have be said that reflects your beliefs?

 

I could be wrong, but I suspect you are a Universalist. Do you believe that all people are saved, whether they profess Christianity or not?

[pitchu]

Alice, I seem to remember that she did use ~ in that way.

 

Dhampir, Yes, it's the same reason she first came here, almost identical to what Joanna stated. She wanted to do whatever she could to alleviate pain for people who had suffered in/from Christianity. And she dedicated herself to learning everything she could about every one of us who would oblige her. Of course, there were only about three or four hundred of us at the time!

 

Eventually, as I recall, the concept of all of us (and all other infidels) winding up in her Christian hell was the absolute last straw for her.

 

Funny how actually learning about people can make you re-evaluate where you belong.

 

So, since you introduced this similarity, Dhampir, I give it to you to end the game and name the name.

[Misterspock1]

Like others have said, the reason for my deconversion really had nothing to do with being hurt by Christians. I had had questions for years, and when I tried to ask them the response usually ended up being either an "I don't know" or "You just need to have faith." It didn't actually answer the question, it just told me to stop thinking about it. I stopped asking the questions for awhile because I felt I was beating my head against a wall, and because Christianity was all I had ever known and I was afraid to leave. Plus, the whole Hell thing kind of scared me into staying. However, I finally did see the light, thankfully, and it wasn't until after I made my deconversion public that I was hurt by Christians. I lost several friends, my fiancee left me, and my relationship with my mother took a very sour turn. I didn't leave because I was angry at being hurt; I left and then people became angry at me and I got hurt. Sure, I would be lying to say there wasn't some anger or bitterness from me in return; hell, I've been out for over three years and have been hospitalized for depression three times.

 

I know my story isn't the same as everyone's here. There are people who were hurt by people in the church, some VERY deeply, and it wasn't just by apologists. Those people would be the ones who would need to hear that apology more, and I am sure they would prefer it from the horse's mouth. I do not mean to undermine your apology at all, in fact I appreciate your kindness in coming here and saying that. But you have to realize that most of us here, however tolerant, are going to be a bit wary whenever a Christian comes to the board bearing "Good News." I myself knew of many times where I would give an apology like this, being sincere in my meaning, but deep down my ulterior motive was to try to convert the person I was talking to. If you have an ulterior motive like that we won't stop you, just be sure to be cordial and to bring your "A" game.

[been there done that]

I used to feel like apologizing (until I spent too much time here at the Lions Den). Every time I come here, I'm verbally ripped apart no matter how peaceful and helpful I try to be. I say "helpful" because I realize that the reason you are all angry is that you really wanted to know the creator in truth but were betrayed by all the lies of Christianity (true Jesus worship/devotion was called the "Way", the word "christian" is likely Roman slang). I was betrayed also, but I didn't become bitter and join the 'let me lick my wounds forever' crowd and devote my life to ragging people out.

 

Admittedly, I fail to take The Lord's advice to not give to dogs (mad dogs) what is holy, LEST THEY TURN and 'rip you apart' (no disrespect, but you do militantly and recklessly hate/resent people). I've never done anything to you, but it seems that I have been chosen to receive all your frustrations instead of you dealing with your own business.

 

Jesus also said that before you can have the ability to truly follow Him, you first have to learn to be just and "carry your own cross" instead of taking your frustrations out on other people and making your problems theirs.

 

So go ahead and make it a lifelong habit to persecute, crucify, hate, and resent people, but as long as you choose to be partisan (non-generic) and limit yourself to the requirements of a label, the only thing that I'm sorry about is that you don't realize that you are your own victim (poetic justice, what goes around comes around).

[OnceConvinced]

I used to feel like apologizing (until I spent too much time here at the Lions Den). Every time I come here, I'm verbally ripped apart no matter how peaceful and helpful I try to be. I say "helpful" because I realize that the reason you are all angry is that you really wanted to know the creator in truth but were betrayed by all the lies of Christianity (true Jesus worship/devotion was called the "Way", the word "christian" is likely Roman slang). I was betrayed also, but I didn't become bitter and join the 'let me lick my wounds forever' crowd and devote my life to ragging people out.

 

Admittedly, I fail to take The Lord's advice to not give to dogs (mad dogs) what is holy, LEST THEY TURN and 'rip you apart' (no disrespect, but you do militantly and recklessly hate/resent people). I've never done anything to you, but it seems that I have been chosen to receive all your frustrations instead of you dealing with your own business.

 

You really are clueless, aren't you? You have no idea. You come onto this site in an arrogant self-righteous manner trying to tell people who you don't know, all about themselves. And then you start making gormless comments like you have in this thread? You are in a delusion and Jesus would be ashamed of your arrogance.

 

Jesus also said that before you can have the ability to truly follow Him, you first have to learn to be just and "carry your own cross" instead of taking your frustrations out on other people and making your problems theirs.

I doubt there is one person on this site who hasn't done this. But then they got real and realised that it was all bull shit.

 

So go ahead and make it a lifelong habit to persecute, crucify, hate, and resent people, but as long as you choose to be partisan (non-generic) and limit yourself to the requirements of a label, the only thing that I'm sorry about is that you don't realize that you are your own victim (poetic justice, what goes around comes around).

Why would any of us want to be like you?

[Guest Joanna]

Been there done that -- "What comes around goes around" is more about karma than Christ, I should think.

 

MisterSpock -- I completely understand your wariness. I am not here to try to convert anyone or to gain "brownie points", because I believe that only God can move someone to change their mind about who He is.

 

 

Antlerman and R.S. Martin -- Very deep questions, indeed. A quick answer will not suffice, so I'll attempt to share my thoughts tomorrow, when I have more time.

[R. S. Martin]

I used to feel like apologizing (until I spent too much time here at the Lions Den). Every time I come here, I'm verbally ripped apart no matter how peaceful and helpful I try to be. I say "helpful" because I realize that the reason you are all angry is that you really wanted to know the creator in truth but were betrayed by all the lies of Christianity (true Jesus worship/devotion was called the "Way", the word "christian" is likely Roman slang). I was betrayed also, but I didn't become bitter and join the 'let me lick my wounds forever' crowd and devote my life to ragging people out.

 

I don't know you from the past but the sentence I highlighted is reason enough for people to "rag you out." Do you realize how absolutely arrogant and self-righteous you sound in it? You're in effect saying, "I got just as raw a deal as the rest of you but I was mature enough not to cave in when things got tough. The rest of you weren't mature enough--you just caved in. I'm better than you."

 

Admittedly, I fail to take The Lord's advice to not give to dogs (mad dogs) what is holy, LEST THEY TURN and 'rip you apart' (no disrespect, but you do militantly and recklessly hate/resent people). I've never done anything to you, but it seems that I have been chosen to receive all your frustrations instead of you dealing with your own business.

 

Here you're claiming innocence and pretending that you're being innocently attacked. Well, we don't take kindly to such false accusations.

 

Jesus also said that before you can have the ability to truly follow Him, you first have to learn to be just and "carry your own cross" instead of taking your frustrations out on other people and making your problems theirs.

 

So go ahead and make it a lifelong habit to persecute, crucify, hate, and resent people, but as long as you choose to be partisan (non-generic) and limit yourself to the requirements of a label, the only thing that I'm sorry about is that you don't realize that you are your own victim (poetic justice, what goes around comes around).

 

Take your own advice and perhaps your life will turn out better. Nobody asked you to come here but you came all the same. Not our fault that you're here. You persecute, crucify, hate and resent people who do not buy your special brand of beliefs. You take out your frustrations on us who never invited you in the first place. You're making our problems your problems. And yes you are your own victim.

[Dhampir]

Alice, I seem to remember that she did use ~ in that way.

 

Dhampir, Yes, it's the same reason she first came here, almost identical to what Joanna stated. She wanted to do whatever she could to alleviate pain for people who had suffered in/from Christianity. And she dedicated herself to learning everything she could about every one of us who would oblige her. Of course, there were only about three or four hundred of us at the time!

 

Eventually, as I recall, the concept of all of us (and all other infidels) winding up in her Christian hell was the absolute last straw for her.

 

Funny how actually learning about people can make you re-evaluate where you belong.

 

So, since you introduced this similarity, Dhampir, I give it to you to end the game and name the name.

 

Awww, alright... I was going to let it drag on a little longer-- I do love a good mystery, but o.k. Only cuz' you said to.

 

Joanna, you not only sound like her in sentiment, but also in literary style and personality, as it comes through in writing. That last post was so similar to, eh, This Person that it's scary. She said almost word for word what you did-- She too had come in tired of the politics of religion, and ill-inclined to debate. Shame the old boards are gone, and a lot of those posts went with it.

 

It might defeat the possibility for me to say this, but I predicted, though not openly, that she would deconvert, despite not wanting to, and being reasonably strong in her faith. Sure enough, about a year later, she announced that she could no longer call herself Christian, as Pitchu said.

 

Reach-ing in and connecting hasn't been very high on her list of priorities of late, but I wager she still comes around every now and again. Loren apparently still does, after all. So anyway, learn everything you can, and do your best to understand who we are, and where we come from, but beware, to properly do so carries the risk of completely changing your outlook.

[mwc]

I used to feel like apologizing (until I spent too much time here at the Lions Den).

I'm glad you're over this.

 

Every time I come here, I'm verbally ripped apart no matter how peaceful and helpful I try to be. I say "helpful" because I realize that the reason you are all angry is that you really wanted to know the creator in truth but were betrayed by all the lies of Christianity (true Jesus worship/devotion was called the "Way", the word "christian" is likely Roman slang).

Don't hijack this thread to do it but if you want to be "helpful" simply provide some evidence for this statement. Demonstrate that we're all angry because of these "lies" and that the "true" jesus cult was called the "Way" and xian is Roman slang. Go on. Don't just assert it but start a thread and prove it. Be helpful. Alleviate our anguish. Be prepared to defend your position though.

 

I was betrayed also, but I didn't become bitter and join the 'let me lick my wounds forever' crowd and devote my life to ragging people out.

How so? Go to your thread and tell us how you were "betrayed" and how you're better than "us" since, presumably, we're the "lick my wounds forever" crowd you speak so highly about. As to the "ragging people out," notice where you are at? Read what "The Lion's Den" is for. Basically "ragging people" like you out. You can post elsewhere if you like and you will get treated (slightly) better but you will not be able to preach at us so freely.

 

Admittedly, I fail to take The Lord's advice to not give to dogs (mad dogs) what is holy, LEST THEY TURN and 'rip you apart' (no disrespect, but you do militantly and recklessly hate/resent people). I've never done anything to you, but it seems that I have been chosen to receive all your frustrations instead of you dealing with your own business.

*cough* LION'S DEN *cough*

 

I guess since you're not passing through without harm you ain't no Daniel.

 

Jesus also said that before you can have the ability to truly follow Him, you first have to learn to be just and "carry your own cross" instead of taking your frustrations out on other people and making your problems theirs.

Just make sure that you aren't coming in from the country with your boys since you'll have that cross shoved on you when jesus can't quite manage to carry it the whole way himself. Looks like this works both ways in jesus-land. I'm guessing this is where, in that poem of the footprints, right at the end, where jesus hops up onto your back, you carry him over and drop him off a cliff into the sea. Truly beautiful.

 

So go ahead and make it a lifelong habit to persecute, crucify, hate, and resent people, but as long as you choose to be partisan (non-generic) and limit yourself to the requirements of a label, the only thing that I'm sorry about is that you don't realize that you are your own victim (poetic justice, what goes around comes around).

Just because you've decided that the "church" has gone astray and you've recaptured the term "the Way" so that in your mind you're "back to basics" doesn't mean that you've done anything more than what you've accused us of doing except you've kept your invisible magic friend and we've decided not to.

 

I look forward to your new thread that actually has any evidence for anything you've said here.

 

mwc

[Purple]

I used to feel like apologizing (until I spent too much time here at the Lions Den). Every time I come here, I'm verbally ripped apart no matter how peaceful and helpful I try to be. I say "helpful" because I realize that the reason you are all angry is that you really wanted to know the creator in truth but were betrayed by all the lies of Christianity (true Jesus worship/devotion was called the "Way", the word "christian" is likely Roman slang). I was betrayed also, but I didn't become bitter and join the 'let me lick my wounds forever' crowd and devote my life to ragging people out.

 

Admittedly, I fail to take The Lord's advice to not give to dogs (mad dogs) what is holy, LEST THEY TURN and 'rip you apart' (no disrespect, but you do militantly and recklessly hate/resent people). I've never done anything to you, but it seems that I have been chosen to receive all your frustrations instead of you dealing with your own business.

 

Jesus also said that before you can have the ability to truly follow Him, you first have to learn to be just and "carry your own cross" instead of taking your frustrations out on other people and making your problems theirs.

 

So go ahead and make it a lifelong habit to persecute, crucify, hate, and resent people, but as long as you choose to be partisan (non-generic) and limit yourself to the requirements of a label, the only thing that I'm sorry about is that you don't realize that you are your own victim (poetic justice, what goes around comes around).

 

No one here, from what I can see, has treated Joanna in an ill manner. So, your accusation that that is all "we" do is false. Ever see American Idol? You remind me of those people who insist they can sing, that they are "THE BEST!" even after they are turned down and it is obvious to everyone they cannot sing they just will not accept it. I've read not all, but a bulk of your postings here, you, BTDT, get back what you put out.

 

As I recall Jesus said to pick up HIS cross, not your own, he also, as far as I recall, did not say YOU would be ripped apart, but rather the message. You seem to even twist Jesus' words to focus on yourself. Care to site chap and verse so we can all check, if not I'll just accept that I'm right and you're a wee bit obssessed with yourself.

 

As for being non-partisan exactly what lable are you accusing everyone here of wearing? I promise you you'll be wrong, it's a pretty diverse group. Me, I choose my own lable, I'm purple, not "generic" enough for you? Too bad I do not have to appease you. The people whos opinion does matter to me think Purple is pretty dang perfect for me.

 

 

 

Oh Joanna welcome to the frey, thanks for the apology.

[Thurisaz]

What that leaves me with in a place like this, I've no idea.

 

I'd say it makes you a reasonable believer (although some here will want to protest that claim as long as you still are a christian of any kind I guess)

[Thurisaz]

I used to feel like apologizing (until I spent too much time here at the Lions Den). <snip rest of worthless babble>

 

I was wondering when one of the trueborn braindead morontheists would drop in here to defile the thread with its filth.

 

Good to see that the laws of nature (note the sarcasm) are still valid.

[been there done that]

Joanna,

 

Our conscience judges us everyday according to the rules that we use to judge other people (as you judge others, so shall you yourself be judged (means the same thing as "What goes around comes around"). I don't know the full meaning of "karma", but, yes, many things that God tells us in scripture are about human nature (the human 'psyche') and offer insights into the human mind (He even says that we should "be transformed by the renewal of the mind", Romans 12:2) and He warns about the false teachings of "self abasement" (Colossians 2:18) that are taught by the "hirelings" (John 10:13). Young christians can find a teacher useful when learning the introductory doctrine of Jesus (Hebrews 6:1), but when maturing in spiritual growth, we already have the best teacher possible and "have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything" (1 John 2:27). Earthly teachers interfere with God's true message (I am not TEACHING, I am only EXPLAINING), but mankind likes to be puffed up "teachers" and followers of "teachers"/icons.

 

The Father's "forever" name is "I am who I am" (christians play puffed up academic/scholarly games with obsolete names like Jehovah, Elohim, etc.) and the only way we can truly relate to and identify with God is to be likewise (I am who I am, knowing who we really are and being that way, of course we should also love Him and respect each other with human rights, but we should NOT love each other MORE than we love ourselves).

 

God is very practical, but human nature is not. The most common way we 'dis' each other is to disregard what the other person actually says (the WORDS used) and INTERPRET the message according to how we feel about ourselves (and what we feel that we DESERVE). We also do this in trying to understand scripture (instead of UNDERSTANDING it, we INTERPRET it to mean something else)...

 

Ephesians 5:17...

 

"Therefore do not be foolish, but UNDERSTAND what the will of the Lord is"

 

EXAMPLE...I did not SAY, it was INTERPRETED that

"The rest of you weren't mature enough--you just caved in. I'm better than you."

 

Maybe other people "FEEL" that I am better than them, but they are mistaken (I also don't like false accusations).

[mwc]

[snip]

Hey dumbass quit puking up the same nonsense you've posted elsewhere in here...take it to your own thread.

 

mwc

[Alice]

Hi BTDT ...

 

can you not see your own behaviour through the words you've written above? Can you see the different way that you've experienced this site and the way Joanna has been recieved?

 

What comes around indeed ...

 

Joanna,

 

I appreciate your apology and can understand the sentiment. I think it forms a good basis on which dialogue can commence. I have been know to feel 'sorry' about the way some non believers treat some believers ... this does not mean I wish to judge the reasons why anyone person reacts in the way that they do ... just that I would wish, in all circumstances, for people to feel valued and have an opportunity to express themselves.

 

In terms of the mystery likeness, I was thinking of someone else - but someone, who like you was also likened to the member Damphir is reminded of!

 

One of my favourite things about this site, is that christians who value other people are by and large - treated with the utmost respect, although their beliefs will still be challenged and given short shrift at times ...

[been there done that]

Luke 9:23 in the RSV

 

"And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me".

 

The "word of truth" (bible, 2 Timothy 2:15, Ephesians 1:13, John 14:6) is 2000/1900 years old. We should LIVE BY every word that PROCEEDS from the mouth of God ("sword of the spirit", Ephesians 6:17) so we can "walk by the SPIRIT" (Galatians 5:16), not mere faith and also have our conscience purified (Hebrews 9:14) after we receive "living water" baptism of God's spirit (John 7:38, Revelation 7:16, Acts 1:5), but we must first carry our own cross.

 

All verses are from the RSV.

 

Most modern bible versions are not true to God's message because they were changed to be politically correct for marketing/sales purposes. Even the KJV was changed to be consistent with The Church Of England.

 

Example

Acts 12:4 in the KJV says "EASTER"

 

but the RSV correctly translates "PASSOVER".

[Alice]

I am reminded of a conversation with a christian I knew in my deconverting days. His response to every dilemma/question/ heartache was to suggest that we 'plead the blood of the lamb'. I once asked him to explain what this really meant ... the conversation went like this ...

 

Me: I'm sorry - I don't really undertand what you mean by that ...

Him: plead the blood of the lamb

Me; yeah - I hear you, but what does that actually mean

Him: plead the blood of the lamb

Me; yes, but what does that mean?

Him; plead the blood of the lamb

Me; I need you to explain what that means ...

Him: plead the blood of the lamb

Me; ????

 

BTDT - you are now just saying stuff that means something to you (I guess) but is disconnected from those around you. In the space between my last post and this I have been back to your original posts. You were given some excellent advice by Antlerman, it could be a good thing to revisit it. If you are interested in meaningful debate there are people around who will advise you as to why you manage to stir up the hostility you say you don't wish to experience - it really is easily avoided ...

[Antlerman]

Earthly teachers interfere with God's true message (I am not TEACHING, I am only EXPLAINING), but mankind likes to be puffed up "teachers" and followers of "teachers"/icons.

Oh this is choice! Thank you for the laugh.

 

You quoted the verse about casting pearls before the swine. Is this the type of pearls you're referring to? Maybe if you cast some actual pearls then you might have a complaint. But I've watched your theology and honestly, you could stand some knowledgeable "explaining" to, since you don't like the word teacher because of your apparent anti-education stance.

 

Is there a verse in the Bible where it talks about taking responsibility for your own actions?