When Will Young Americans Get Angry About The War?

[gradstu09]

Jincks, did you quote the wrong post to respond to? CC Lady didn't mention boomers at all.

[Jincks013]

Jincks, did you quote the wrong post to respond to? CC Lady didn't mention boomers at all.

 

Yep,. I don't see an edit button though..

The sentiment remains.. pointing fingers of blame is really easy and convenient; having the balls to act takes alot more effort.

[gradstu09]

So what is your definition of action?

[florduh]

A small number are angry. The rest are too busy volunteering to do the dirty work for our corrupt regime.

 

I guess history and current events aren't being taught anymore, and news about how the government screws it's military veterans isn't allowed to be seen by anyone under 30.

[MathGeek]

OK hold onto your horseshoes there pops. Firstly my mother did not 'engineer' any mess.. she was definately involved in the protest AGAINST war, AGAINST killing and for getting rid of stupid crap sex only when married, pregnancy is bad if you weren't married, be a good quiet woman thing, she was part of the ERA working actively to promote womens rights, fFS she had to get my dad's PERMISSION to get the pill and that only stopped one measly year before Roe Vs. Wade.

Engineered you bet your bippy she did.. she engineered a whole new generation of free thinkers not tied to archaic 'morality' and accepting of the status quo.

 

Your next shot sucks just as bad.

Why isn't my 18 year old angry about the war? Well sparky what did you want her to do about it percisely? Walk into the white house and tell bush he's a arrogant egocentric jerk whose linage is confused with the average donkey? Providing she could get into the white house do you really think Bush is going to listen to a 18 year old girl telling him to stop?

Why don't you go provide a example and YOU do something instead of pointing fingers at children and baby boomers?

 

How about take me on? I'm not either and I am more then willing to play mental ping pong with you, get a paddle first though.

 

Could she be voicing her opinions more or less from frustration? That is how I am most of the time. I work myself silly many days trying to change the status quo but it taxes one to their wits end. I guess the line is invisible when it comes to complaining vs actual frustration.

 

Who knows anymore, I guess.

[Jincks013]

So what is your definition of action?

 

What I see as 'action' is exactly what my mother and those of her generation 'engineered'.

IT was their protests, their rufusal to cooperate with the status quo that changed things. It was their belief and determination not to have that belief undermined that brought about change.

Protest, letters to congress people, joining political movements. Doing things.

This my daughter learned from her mother and her grandmother.

 

I refused when I was in the Navy to sign anything saying I supported the Navy's equal opportunity program (Women weren't allowed on subs or in the seals then) and wrote endlessly to congressmen/women about it; about how unfair it was that women were denied equal opportunities, there is a small host of private issues I take action on.

Vague statements like "Todays young people aren't getting angry" may well impress the writer but without empirical research it is hardly impressive or substantiated.

 

1/1 service..

What do you call 'taking action' and can you support, empirically, the notion that todays young people are not in fact angry about the war?

 

Ball is in your court.

[The-Captain]

Jincks, did you quote the wrong post to respond to? CC Lady didn't mention boomers at all.

 

Yep,. I don't see an edit button though..

The sentiment remains.. pointing fingers of blame is really easy and convenient; having the balls to act takes alot more effort.

 

If you were referring to Gramps, he isn't a US citizen...

 

And Vigile, you're still a citizen but a Russian resident right? Dual citizenship or something?

[gradstu09]

I wasn't challenging you; I just wanted to know what you considered to be useful. I am what I consider a young person, 25 and in grad school (hence the username). There was not a lot of talk amongst my peers on the war until maybe mid 2007, and even then people were cautious to bring it up. I do not know what it was like during the Vietnam era, but when the war started I was in undergrad and people were very split over support for it. There seems to be residual hesitation to talk about it for fear you will encounter a 20%er who still supports it. Amongst the people I know well, there is definitely a lot of anger but it rarely gets discussed, mostly someone will be drop it into a conversation as a rant and people will agree but it doesn't go further. Protests and collective action that I have seen have been small and not well-attended. I might even argue that the time for mass protests is past. Protests of Bush have been relegated to small areas off main parade routes and the like. Some of the biggest protests led by immigrants have had no effect that I can see, except for perhaps deepening the backlash against them (whether this is a sign they are having an effect is up for debate).

 

I would disagree that young people are not angry about the war. However, I would also disagree that expressions such as protests are a valid way to gauge anger anymore. If anything, I would describe the atmosphere as simmering. More than the war people are talking about the election, almost nonstop. Will young voters actually vote this November? It's always talked about but always fizzles. If I see the young demographic voting, after chronically being the most anemic group, I would consider that action. Personally, I write letters, contribute to blogs, and speak up where I can. Not being very outgoing or a joiner, learning to speak up is practically a therapy exercise but if anything is worth my efforts it is change. I do not give money to any particular anti-war groups b/c my charity dollars are already allocated elsewhere.

 

Have you seen protests being effective? B/c I have not.

[florduh]

I would disagree that young people are not angry about the war.

 

 

I don't want to butt into your fight here, but academic society does not reflect our society as a whole. When I was in school I thought the campus was the entire universe. It ain't.

 

Carry on!

[Vigile]

Jincks, did you quote the wrong post to respond to? CC Lady didn't mention boomers at all.

 

Yep,. I don't see an edit button though..

The sentiment remains.. pointing fingers of blame is really easy and convenient; having the balls to act takes alot more effort.

 

If you were referring to Gramps, he isn't a US citizen...

 

And Vigile, you're still a citizen but a Russian resident right? Dual citizenship or something?

 

I've been in Russia for 4 years on a business visa. I'm still a US citizen. My status in Russia is about to change though, I can no longer live here on a business visa due to law changes over here. I am working on getting a company sponsored working visa. If that doesn't work out, I have to apply for Residency status, which means I will need to leave the country for 5-6 months.

[woodsmoke]

Well, protests worked so well that it's largely the Generation of 68 that have engineered this mess

Ain't that the truth.

 

There are exceptions, of course, but by and large I'm rather fond of referring to the baby boomers as the hypocrite generation. From what I've seen, they've never failed to execute a flawless 180 degree change in stance on an issue the moment it would benefit them, ideals and the effect it may have on progeny be damned.

 

'Course, to be fair, it's not as if the majority of my own generation is shaping up to be much different.

[MathGeek]

Well, protests worked so well that it's largely the Generation of 68 that have engineered this mess

Ain't that the truth.

 

There are exceptions, of course, but by and large I'm rather fond of referring to the baby boomers as the hypocrite generation. From what I've seen, they've never failed to execute a flawless 180 degree change in stance on an issue the moment it would benefit them, ideals and the effect it may have on progeny be damned.

 

'Course, to be fair, it's not as if the majority of my own generation is shaping up to be much different.

 

Um, how far does that accusation go? I am of the Generation of '99 and how would they compare to my generation?

 

As far I'm concerned, too many people sing the lines from that Who song too damn often.

[One_World]

There was not a lot of talk amongst my peers on the war until maybe mid 2007, and even then people were cautious to bring it up. I do not know what it was like during the Vietnam era, but when the war started I was in undergrad and people were very split over support for it. There seems to be residual hesitation to talk about it for fear you will encounter a 20%er who still supports it.

 

For those 20%ers, it's inconceivable that someone could oppose the war while supporting the troops. I choose to the support the troops by hoping they can be brought home alive and well instead of in a flag-draped coffin. But the second you speak out against the war itself, you are accused of hating America and the troops. If I had a dollar for everytime I've had to explain that I do not, in fact, support the terrorists, I'd be a millionaire.

[gradstu09]

I would disagree that young people are not angry about the war.

 

 

I don't want to butt into your fight here, but academic society does not reflect our society as a whole. When I was in school I thought the campus was the entire universe. It ain't.

 

Carry on!

 

Yeah I know. It is kind of a bubble, but the school is in a college town, so there isn't really a way to get outside of it at the moment. It's the only perspective I have right now. I know it's privileged but it does feel kinda nice for the moment...

[woodsmoke]

Well, protests worked so well that it's largely the Generation of 68 that have engineered this mess

Ain't that the truth.

 

There are exceptions, of course, but by and large I'm rather fond of referring to the baby boomers as the hypocrite generation. From what I've seen, they've never failed to execute a flawless 180 degree change in stance on an issue the moment it would benefit them, ideals and the effect it may have on progeny be damned.

 

'Course, to be fair, it's not as if the majority of my own generation is shaping up to be much different.

 

Um, how far does that accusation go? I am of the Generation of '99 and how would they compare to my generation?

 

As far I'm concerned, too many people sing the lines from that Who song too damn often.

Eh, I may have misspoke there.

 

What I meant is, for all the hypocrisy I see in the baby boomers, having been the ideological hippies in their youth then most of them completely forsaking that as they moved into middle age in favor of a heavily conservative philosophy which benefits them more now, I see a lot of the same ignorant selfishness in most of my peers. The same attitude of "what's good for me right now, nevermind any(one/thing) else" seems to prevail.

 

Then again, it could well be my cynicism is simply getting the better of me.

[Grandpa Harley]

Jincks, did you quote the wrong post to respond to? CC Lady didn't mention boomers at all.

 

Yep,. I don't see an edit button though..

The sentiment remains.. pointing fingers of blame is really easy and convenient; having the balls to act takes alot more effort.

 

and to be unable to see the social continuum from the Class of 66 - 69 simple means your seat in any history course you were in was wasted...

[MathGeek]

Jincks, did you quote the wrong post to respond to? CC Lady didn't mention boomers at all.

 

Yep,. I don't see an edit button though..

The sentiment remains.. pointing fingers of blame is really easy and convenient; having the balls to act takes alot more effort.

 

and to be unable to see the social continuum from the Class of 66 - 69 simple means your seat in any history course you were in was wasted...

 

I have seen the social continuum from that period of time, but I really don't think anybody who wasn't alive during that time period understands fully what is was about and what its ramifications are. Also, there is a HUGE descripancy when it comes to the dividing line between the boomers and the next generation. My mother and father, 50 and 47 respectively, were pretty tough parents and they did not compromise their beliefs as they became older. My father has always been a strict conversative, my mother has always been a sensible moderate/conservative. From my standpoint, they were never coddled kids, never members of the Dr. Spock revolution.

 

Is there a split amongst the boomers in the values they hold? My parents are tail-enders and they came of age during the Carter/Reagan years. What can anyone make of this?

[Deva]

I have seen the social continuum from that period of time, but I really don't think anybody who wasn't alive during that time period understands fully what is was about and what its ramifications are. Also, there is a HUGE descripancy when it comes to the dividing line between the boomers and the next generation. My mother and father, 50 and 47 respectively, were pretty tough parents and they did not compromise their beliefs as they became older. My father has always been a strict conversative, my mother has always been a sensible moderate/conservative. From my standpoint, they were never coddled kids, never members of the Dr. Spock revolution.

 

Is there a split amongst the boomers in the values they hold? My parents are tail-enders and they came of age during the Carter/Reagan years. What can anyone make of this?

 

MathGeek you are making me feel old. I am one of the tail-enders you speak of, being 49. Old enough to have seen the anti-war protests on TV but too young to have participated. There is a crucial distiction and a split, in my opinion. The boomers Gramps speaks of- class of 69 - were different than boomers class of 76 I think.

 

We were raised with everything typical of a middle class family. My brothers were too young to go to Vietnam. My parents were very conservative. They are lifelong Republicans. My father was in the Air Force so naturally I carried around their view of politics for many years. So all through the 70's and 80's and into the 90's I was a conservative. It is only recently that I became a social liberal.

 

The protests of the 1960s were something unique to that time, hard really to imagine unless you lived in those days. The social climate was completely different. People thought their views really mattered and they could make a difference. Now, I don't see anything like this level of protest or revolt happening again unless things get really bad economically. I mean along the lines of the Great Depression -- something none of us have experienced - being raised with everything money could buy and then having everything taken away. Even so, things would be now be very different with the weapons the government has developed since the 60s. I think if those protests occurred nowdays, they would be put down much more ruthlessly. The Kent State situation magnified 100 fold.

[Vomit Comet]

The Boomers were never a monolith. Nixon wasn't making shit up when he described "the silent majority." The one reason that the radicalism of the late 60s freaked so many people out was that it wasn't coming from the ghetto or from some beatnik dropout degenerates or greasy outlaw bikers: it was coming from students at America's elite universities (Berkeley, Harvard, etc.), the places that produce our future leaders in government, business, and academics. Even though the radicals were a small minority, it was who they were and where they were, rather than what they were, that freaked everyone out. How much danger was the Republic in if the radicals were coming from Princeton and not from the gutters?

 

In the early-mid 60s, maybe earlier, there was a black college in the South where the local cops shot and killed an alarmingly large number of students who were engaged in a civil rights protest. I forget where; someone might know off-hand. At the time, nobody outside the black community gave a shit. If that would have happened at Yale, imagine the horror.

 

Also, Gramps isn't totally off about his assessment of the Generation of 68. Most of the neo-cons that engineered this debacle (The New American Century) were 60s radicals that had "second thoughts" (as David Horowitz puts it) in the mid 1970s. I've met people who knew Horowitz back when he was a radical; he was an opportunist shiester then and remains one now. He saw that the winds were changing so he wanted to be on the winning side. Well, sure enough, Reagan came riding in to save the day.

 

It's kind of like how Italian schools teach kids that Italy was one of the winners, one of the good guys in World War II because Mussolini was whacked in-house and Italy switched sides (though not all that actively) once it was clear the Axis was toast. This is one major reason that fascism is still alive-and-well in Italy; the Germans fought to the bitter end and were totally crushed, and were made to reorganize their whole society and purge themselves completely of Nazism. Whereas Italy switched sides before it got to that point, allowing the fascists to crawl back into their dark holes until later when they could reemerge. The #2 man under Berlusconni is a Nationalist, which as all Italians know (including the INPers themselves) is a euphemism for fascist. Anyways, I digress.

 

Some people say the neo-cons tried to change the world with neo-Marxism back in the 60s, and it didn't work. So now they're trying to change the world with its crass inverse. Neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism are often conflated together, but there is a difference. Neo-libs favor multilateralism that trumps nationalism, whereas the neo-cons are all for globalization as long as it makes American interests A-1 over everybody else's.

 

Also, most the intellectual heavyweights among the neo-cons are secular Jews who privately disdain born-again Christians, even while cynically manipulating them for electoral gain. Bush is their figurehead. This is one of the things that soured me on Christianity: how could God allow His Church - His Church in the Christian nation, the lynchpin for the global church when it comes down to it - to get bent over a barrel and fucked up the ass by these cynical elitist lying bastards, all the while moaning with pleasure at their deep and violent penetration?

 

I really hope the neo-cons get purged as thoroughly as possible. God damn those motherfuckers.

[Outback Jack]

VometComet, could you define "Neocon" for me, please?

 

(Edited for grammar).

[MathGeek]

The protests of the 1960s were something unique to that time, hard really to imagine unless you lived in those days. The social climate was completely different. People thought their views really mattered and they could make a difference. Now, I don't see anything like this level of protest or revolt happening again unless things get really bad economically. I mean along the lines of the Great Depression -- something none of us have experienced - being raised with everything money could buy and then having everything taken away. Even so, things would be now be very different with the weapons the government has developed since the 60s. I think if those protests occurred nowdays, they would be put down much more ruthlessly. The Kent State situation magnified 100 fold.

 

In the early-mid 60s, maybe earlier, there was a black college in the South where the local cops shot and killed an alarmingly large number of students who were engaged in a civil rights protest. I forget where; someone might know off-hand. At the time, nobody outside the black community gave a shit. If that would have happened at Yale, imagine the horror.

 

I think you two make great points about the protests of the 60's and about this generational study overall. I have seen the themes of classism, racism, ageism and general inhumanity toward humankind throughout this thread. I wish more people talked about these things.

 

I didn't mean to make you feel old, Deva. Of course, 49 is the new 29 last I heard.

 

I think you are thinking of Orangeburg, SC there, Vomit Comet. Too bad Neil Young didn't care enough then to write a protest song.

[Vomit Comet]

WikiPedia: Neo-Conservatism

 

Wikipedia: Project for the New American Century

 

Garrison Keillor: We're Not in Lake Wobegon Anymore