How Would It Affect Your Faith If There Was No Afterlife?

[Mythra]

Would you please quote where Jesus promises or seems to promise an afterlife? If you don't know chapter and verse, can you at least quote the words?

 

You may be right with regards to the synoptic gospels - I'm not sure if I remember a specific promise of eternal life in them.

 

Perhaps that was one of the late developments (similar to the Logos, the raising of Lazarus, all the "I AM" statements, etc) that only the writer of John's gospel thought to reveal invent.

[Mythra]

Nah - scratch that idea. The synoptic gospel writers have him promising it too.

 

Matt 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life

 

Matt 25:46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

Luke 28:29 I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life.

[white_raven23]

Well I wish you had the old me to compare to the new me. I was nothing like me now. I was very angry, used to rage alot on people. I didnt care about anyone but me. Incredibly selfish, not that Im not now but I am much much less. I used to be a real lush, in that I had no self control and would have ended up dead the way I was going. I give credit to God for the changes in me Antlerman because before I was walking in this relationship I wasnt changing.....I was so stuck.

I give credit to you. God is there for you, in a sense, and your belief in God has helped you. But again, as Jesus himself said, “You’re faith has made you whole”. Congratulations. You had this in you the whole time. God helped you find it.

 

That's twice now you've been told that sojourner. How many of us have to tell you that before you start to see your own inner worth and strength? You want to put the label "god" on your conscience, so be it. But be honest and realize the still small voice came from within you.

 

And a big scam religion tries to pull is in staking claim and credit for the inner voice that was always there....you just never listened to it until the religion you chose named it god or Jesus for you.

[Evolution_beyond]

Ok so I’ll tell you then, it’s entirely up to you. If you wish to find happiness in this life you must choose to see it. You must let go of fear and live in the moment. Make every moment the only moment of life. Not an hour for now, nor an hour ago. Life is in the present only. It’s yours and yours alone to create and shape into what you wish life to be.

Stop. No. Here’s the secret. Life is now. There is no such thing as perfection. Nothing anywhere in the entire universe is perfect. Perfect is a concept like “zero” and it has no real equivalent in the real world. It is impossible for you to pick up zero apples, and is impossible to have absolute beauty, or absolute knowledge, or ‘full’ happiness. It’s all a measure of degrees.

 

One way to look at it is that imperfection in the universe is necessary for it to function. And really it’s therefore not imperfection, but perfection in that it's what makes it work! It works through processes of imperfection, and therfore is perfect as is.. Life is growth. Without degrees of state, there would be no growth. You can have moments of great happiness, followed by less than fulfilling moments. But these imperfections are part of the whole, and are therefore perfection.

 

When you can learn to embrace every moment as perfect, then you will have ‘full’ happiness.

 

Wow, Antlerman. That's the kind of wisdom I used to read in certain New Age books. It's nice to see someone who doesn't believe in God speaking that way - reassures me that I don't have to reject such inspiration in order to be atheist.

[sojourner]

I am not afriad to look anymore. I used to be but I think finally that fear is put to rest.

Why were you afraid before, but not now? What were you afraid of?

 

For years I was afraid to venture out into the unknown because the church tells you that you will be deceived, satan will eat you up little christian, you need us to protect you, tell you what the bible means and keep you safe. Then one day fear just vanished and there I was with a voracious appetite to learn and seek.

 

I think there is not only the belief in an afterlife that might have made me more lazy but there is also teachings in universalism that teach that basically you are waiting on God to change us to be more like Jesus was when he was here. So even in universalsim there seems to be this focus on when our change comes.......and for most christians its the rapture, but it does seem to be a running theme in christianity, always waiting on something.

 

Really? Do you feel that they promise change as a selling point, but then don’t really know how to address that part of the process?

 

Its quite possible yes, that the church in a general way, promises lots of things to hook you on their line, and many of them they are not really equipped to follow thru on.

 

Do they feel that they (or maybe just the current leadership of that particular congregation) don’t understand that process themselves and are putting it on God and you to wait? Is it because they believe it, but don’t understand how it works?

 

I think the answer to that could vary as much as the congregations but I dont attend a universalist congregation if you will. I gather with friends online though. There is a 'plan for the ages' in universalism if you will that includes a transformation and manifestation within folks. That is what many are waiting for, we understand it as much as a worm can understand being a butterfly.

 

Why aren't they offering some guidance for you to find your own path.

 

I am very much on my own path. If not I wouldnt be at this forum. I have friends but am hardly a follow the leader kind of person except the spirit within me. I am always learning, seeking and my beliefs are being morphed all the time. Most universalists are like that, although in every sect if you will there are those that find their answers and sit on the the rest of their lives with their heels dug in and feet firmly planted

 

Ok so I’ll tell you then, it’s entirely up to you. If you wish to find happiness in this life you must choose to see it. You must let go of fear and live in the moment. Make every moment the only moment of life. Not an hour for now, nor an hour ago. Life is in the present only. It’s yours and yours alone to create and shape into what you wish life to be.

 

You may of course believe in ideals and hold God up an object of that faith in those ideals if it serves you. But in the end, you have to walk that road. You and you alone. There is no “footprints in the sand†salvation. It’s your faith that sustains you and saves you. It’s your faith in the ideals of what you value in life that you wish to follow and to become a part of your 'soul', so to speak, whether you apply the face of God to that or not, and it is that alone which will change you. It’s every step, at every moment of now, embracing the ideals that offer peace, community, and strength to you. It truly is your faith that saves you. Make sense?

 

Absolutely beautiful, I went to bed with these thoughts permeating my being and I was very inspired by them, I tend to think of there being no seperation between my faith and the faith of God, but, in reading your words it made the words of Jesus come much more alive, when he would say 'Your faith'......beautiful

 

I believe at this time I have a measure of happiness if you will but I dont believe its full. I like how it says Abraham looked for another country, to me that means a higher plane of existance where there is no more hate. I dont think I can be fully happy till I can see all mankind happy and fulfilled. I know that sounds cheesy but it is my heart.

Stop. No. Here’s the secret. Life is now. There is no such thing as perfection. Nothing anywhere in the entire universe is perfect. Perfect is a concept like “zero†and it has no real equivalent in the real world. It is impossible for you to pick up zero apples, and is impossible to have absolute beauty, or absolute knowledge, or ‘full’ happiness. It’s all a measure of degrees.

 

One way to look at it is that imperfection in the universe is necessary for it to function. And really it’s therefore not imperfection, but perfection in that it's what makes it work! It works through processes of imperfection, and therfore is perfect as is.. Life is growth. Without degrees of state, there would be no growth. You can have moments of great happiness, followed by less than fulfilling moments. But these imperfections are part of the whole, and are therefore perfection.

 

When you can learn to embrace every moment as perfect, then you will have ‘full’ happiness.

 

again I was inspired by your words, I found them so beautifully alive! I really love how you see life!

 

Well I wish you had the old me to compare to the new me. I was nothing like me now. I was very angry, used to rage alot on people. I didnt care about anyone but me. Incredibly selfish, not that Im not now but I am much much less. I used to be a real lush, in that I had no self control and would have ended up dead the way I was going. I give credit to God for the changes in me Antlerman because before I was walking in this relationship I wasnt changing.....I was so stuck.

I give credit to you. God is there for you, in a sense, and your belief in God has helped you. But again, as Jesus himself said, “You’re faith has made you wholeâ€. Congratulations. You had this in you the whole time. God helped you find it.

 

again, just by reading your posts I wouldnt think you had wrong motives Antlerman. I think you sincerely care about people and want to understand them.

 

sojourner

Well thank you. I am a curious soul.

 

Thank you Antlerman, I find your posts very inspiring and full of wisdom

 

sojourner

[Antlerman]

Wow, Antlerman. That's the kind of wisdom I used to read in certain New Age books. It's nice to see someone who doesn't believe in God speaking that way - reassures me that I don't have to reject such inspiration in order to be atheist.

I always shudder to be compared to anything New Age, but I do appreciate your feelings being expressed.

 

But whenever I think New Age gurus, I think popularized, mass marketed philosophies skimmed off the surface of deep religious traditions and philosophical disciplines the world over in order to give them mass appeal and consequently sell books and other paraphernalia. It's the form, but not the substance. That's what defines something becoming popularized to me. Simplifying it into easy to consume sound bites for mass market appeal. Call it the Buddha in a Box religion available at the check out lanes of your local Wall-Mart.

 

It's like the original Hippie movement being adopted by all the suburban kids in style and dress, but not in the true essence of their philosophies. Everyone's a Hippie now, and so the real ones go out and stage a Hippie funeral to declare they were now dead, and then moved off to Colorado to get the hell away from all the damned pseudo-hippies! In fact, I wouldn’t be one bit surprised that early Christianity began this way like the Hippies – as an anti-establishment philosophy that shunned mainstream conformity (think flipping over the money-changer tables, plus others).

 

It was a subculture religion, because religion was the establishment. Really though in essence it was a counter philosophy to corruption and stagnation of the mainstream. But it too, like the Hippie movement became popularized and got morphed in this suburbanized form, blending all the other popular elements of the day such as the popular deities. Jesus became 'popularized', and that's who really killed him! He became obliterated by the mainstream.

 

But I certainly understand what you mean about the current wave of atheist 'converts'. It's great to push back against being told what to think by a group of stale old priests who dare not think far beyond the sanctioned doctrines, but then what? Atheism isn't a philosophy. It's simply a starting point, as Theism is. It saying you either include or exclude belief in a deity as part of the philosophy of life you adopt to live by. In fact, there are those who may believe in a deity that may simply choose to not incorporate that into their earthly philosophies. That then would be essentially, an atheistic philosophy because it doesn't rely on a deity. The deity doesn't exist in the philosophy, whether they believe in one or not.

 

What disturbs me is how the zealous atheists seem to take the same mentality of the religion they reject and try to define that atheism is the same things as a rationalist materialist philosophy. Ironically it almost takes the same flavor of a religion in its rejection of even non-theistic philosophies beyond the scope of hard core materialism. Ever listen to Dawkins? To me that's a great shame. The reason being is because rather than atheism being the opening of the doors to possibilities by setting the authoritative god factor aside (which is what it is to me), it takes the doctrines of religion and supplants them with the doctrines of philosophical materialism.

 

Just rambling. I must be feeling better today.

[Ouroboros]

Please start a thread for this. I never noticed the tag you two carried. I'd like to hear more about it.

So be it. I opened a new topic, and since this is a new philosophy, and we're not sure what it fully means yet, it will be an exploration for all of us...

[R. S. Martin]

Nah - scratch that idea. The synoptic gospel writers have him promising it too.

 

Matt 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life

 

Matt 25:46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

Luke 28:29 I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life.

 

Yup, you're right. Stuff was slipping my mind BIG TIME.

[Evolution_beyond]

I always shudder to be compared to anything New Age, but I do appreciate your feelings being expressed.

 

But whenever I think New Age gurus, I think popularized, mass marketed philosophies skimmed off the surface of deep religious traditions and philosophical disciplines the world over in order to give them mass appeal and consequently sell books and other paraphernalia. It's the form, but not the substance. That's what defines something becoming popularized to me. Simplifying it into easy to consume sound bites for mass market appeal. Call it the Buddha in a Box religion available at the check out lanes of your local Wall-Mart.

 

but I always think deeply about what I read. It wasn't 'buddha in a box' to me - but a life-enhancing philosophy that seemed wise and inspiring. I wasn't just following fashion - I meant it. Neale Donald Walsch's 'conversations with God' was a lifeline and an inspiration for me. That's what I think of as 'new age' thinking, not the silly crystals and tarot cards variety.

 

I can see major flaws in some of it now - but there is still plenty of wisdom in there.

 

Most of that wise stuff probably comes from buddhism originally though - or perhaps some wise secular philosophies.

 

What disturbs me is how the zealous atheists seem to take the same mentality of the religion they reject and try to define that atheism is the same things as a rationalist materialist philosophy. Ironically it almost takes the same flavor of a religion in its rejection of even non-theistic philosophies beyond the scope of hard core materialism. Ever listen to Dawkins? To me that's a great shame. The reason being is because rather than atheism being the opening of the doors to possibilities by setting the authoritative god factor aside (which is what it is to me), it takes the doctrines of religion and supplants them with the doctrines of philosophical materialism.

 

I like Dawkins, in the same way that I liked it when some guy pulled a moonie (bared his bum) during an open-air meeting when I was young. That kind of strong stance against religion needs to be taken every now and then, otherwise religious types think they can just brow-beat the rest of us into submission. A militant atheist stance can help atheists feel strong and empowered, something that is very difficult when christians think they have a monopoly on respectability.

 

On the other hand - it is important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater - spiritual metaphors can be helpful, as long as you remember that they are only metaphors - non-theistic spiritualities such as buddhism are definitely worth looking into - and it is important not to get rid of poetic expression, and the kind of 'poetry in the soul' that makes it tempting to personify the moon or the sea etc, even though you know this is nonsense on a rational level.

 

I call myself a pan-atheist - because I can appreciate metaphors and poetry, because I like inspiring philosophies that I am tempted to term 'spiritual' except that I don't believe in spirits - and because I think all things are connected, all things are one on some level (well, it is scientifically true, isn't it?) and I like to place focus on this. So I still think and feel very much like the pantheist I used to be - except I no longer believe in God. Hence: Pan-atheist.

[Antlerman]

but I always think deeply about what I read. It wasn't 'buddha in a box' to me - but a life-enhancing philosophy that seemed wise and inspiring. I wasn't just following fashion - I meant it. Neale Donald Walsch's 'conversations with God' was a lifeline and an inspiration for me. That's what I think of as 'new age' thinking, not the silly crystals and tarot cards variety.

Yes I know I was being a tad bit harsh. I usually get that way about popular anything. I'm sure there are those within it that have some great insights. But usually, I've found they don't have as huge of market appeal. It's usually too much for your average consumer. God, we are such a consumerist society.

 

I like Dawkins, in the same way that I liked it when some guy pulled a moonie (bared his bum) during an open-air meeting when I was young.

In some regards I do too. When he expresses his bewilderment at the status that religion gets in politics, it brings a smile to my face. He has a lot to say to that. It in areas like this that I appreciate him, but also see him as possibly detrimental in the long run because it's a polarizing voice. But as I always say, those on edges of the bell curve create a dialog in the middle, and therefore they have a vital purpose for the whole. It's just I wish for voices of balance from both sides.

 

On the other hand - it is important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater - spiritual metaphors can be helpful, as long as you remember that they are only metaphors - non-theistic spiritualities such as buddhism are definitely worth looking into - and it is important not to get rid of poetic expression, and the kind of 'poetry in the soul' that makes it tempting to personify the moon or the sea etc, even though you know this is nonsense on a rational level.

Well this is certainly ironic. I just finished posting this seconds before you posted this: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=317798

 

I call myself a pan-atheist - because I can appreciate metaphors and poetry, because I like inspiring philosophies that I am tempted to term 'spiritual' except that I don't believe in spirits - and because I think all things are connected, all things are one on some level (well, it is scientifically true, isn't it?) and I like to place focus on this. So I still think and feel very much like the pantheist I used to be - except I no longer believe in God. Hence: Pan-atheist.

Someone called me a "scientific pantheist". I'd never heard of that before, but didn't care too much for the pantheist word. Maybe something like "pan-everythingist"? It's funny in my private life I will often use the term God to describe things, but my audience is someone who knows intimately what my beliefs are. There's no confusion the manner in which I'm using that word. It really depends on the context. I think that's why when I hear Sojourner speaking about God, I see something more about her heart, than some deity in the sky.

[par4dcourse]

I m a firm believer in Occam's Razor. No heaven+no hell=no xtians. (A pop quiz is possible.)