Antlerman Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 How would it affect your faith if there was no afterlife? I am hoping Sojourner won’t mind me starting a separate topic on this question I asked in another thread. I’ve been occupied lately and didn’t have time to follow up with this question, and felt it would be better served as an open discussion in itself. Sojourner, I want to ask you a question to hear the sort of response you will offer. If you were to hear God tell you something like this, "There is no afterlife. There is only this life. When you die, you will be no more." What would that do to you to hear that? Of course I'm being entirely sincere and respectful in this question. I'd just like to hear your response. Ive actually thought on that even last night I was thinking on that because of the convo's here and the beliefs you all share. It isnt the first time Ive given that thought my attention and probably wont be the last. Honestly, the only reason an afterlife matters to me is that I feel being here which to me is a lower plane if you will veils me to much of God. I want to be on the other side of that veil simply to experiance God from that place without the encumbrances that this world has. The bible says we were lowered into vanity not of our own accord........I want to experiance what it is like not living in such vanity. I am not convinced we dont come from that knowing having it veiled to us then return because the bible also says God casts us forth and cries out return you children of men and that He makes a way for His banished to return. However, if there is NO afterlife, Im ok with that. To nonexist is ok with me but that doesnt change that I believe in God. If by my nonexistance somehow He is served thats ok with me. sojourner In response to this now... I guess I’m wondering what shift of sensibilities do you think would occur for you emotionally? How would you take the news that all that is available before you in the world is all that you will ever know? That it’s not really for any purpose that serves God per se’, but that’s just simply the way of things, and it’s what will happen and he can’t do anything about it. How would you then see your life here on earth, and how would your see that relationship with God changed; either positively, negatively, or not at all? In what ways would it change? In what ways would it change you? How would it affect how you saw this life? I’d also like to pose this question to other Christians for their honest thoughts on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Antlerman I am so glad you brought this up. This place has really had a positive effect on me. Being around people that arent so stuck on waiting to live till they die is refreshing to say the least. I have really been prodded within to live more passionately! Though at this time in my life I dont believe that this is it, I love the passion I see in those that do. You always see stories about people that find out they are about to die and they make lists of things they always wanted to do but were afraid to take the risk, they go mend any broken relationships the best they can and things of this nature. I think we all could do with more of that thinking and courage in our lives. I have really been lazy about some things and this has challanged me. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Sorry Antlerman to sidetrack just a little, this is kind of a pragmatheist philosophy, right? I just have to get it out there: Live like there is no life after death, even if you believe there is one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 Being around people that arent so stuck on waiting to live till they die is refreshing to say the least. I love the way you just put this. I see this as one of the negatives that can come by having one's sight set on the "prize" of heaven. To me it seems to set up this life as less than good. It distracts from what is before us and at worst, devalues it. I have really been prodded within to live more passionately! Though at this time in my life I dont believe that this is it, I love the passion I see in those that do. You always see stories about people that find out they are about to die and they make lists of things they always wanted to do but were afraid to take the risk, they go mend any broken relationships the best they can and things of this nature. I think we all could do with more of that thinking and courage in our lives. I have really been lazy about some things and this has challanged me. sojourner I'm still wondering how you would view God in your life today, knowing that the ultimate of what you will ever become will only happen in this life? Would you still believe in him, and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Live like there is no life after death, even if you believe there is one. That is very good imo what is pragmathiest? sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 Sorry Antlerman to sidetrack just a little, this is kind of a pragmatheist philosophy, right? I just have to get it out there: Live like there is no life after death, even if you believe there is one. Well said Brother Hans. Yes, even the theist can hold to the Pragmatheist doctrine. What's our membership at now? Still just the two of us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 Live like there is no life after death, even if you believe there is one. That is very good imo what is pragmathiest? sojourner pragmatheist was a word created to describe 'practical atheism' Pragmatic atheist. Pragmatheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 I'm still wondering how you would view God in your life today, knowing that the ultimate of what you will ever become will only happen in this life? Would you still believe in him, and why? Would I be dissappointed, yes. I would be dissappointed to not get to experiance life longer if I found out an afterlife was all false. But Im sure I would live this one with even more passion because of that knowing. Why would I still believe? God wouldnt be less real to me because the afterlife was taken away. Take my 'ticket to heaven' that still leaves me with a real God, and a good God at that. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Sorry Antlerman to sidetrack just a little, this is kind of a pragmatheist philosophy, right? I just have to get it out there: Live like there is no life after death, even if you believe there is one. Well said Brother Hans. Yes, even the theist can hold to the Pragmatheist doctrine. What's our membership at now? Still just the two of us? So far only us two. I'm working currently on the "doctrines" in my head. Maybe we should at least get a blog going. Live like there is no life after death, even if you believe there is one. That is very good imo what is pragmathiest? sojourner pragmatheist was a word created to describe 'practical atheism' Pragmatic atheist. Pragmatheist. Also, it actually can be "pragmatic theist", the shorthand it comes out the same, if a person so wants. I think that maybe the pragmatheist is someone who (regardless if he's an atheist or a theist) lives by a philosphy that in practical sense live like if God didn't exist. In other words, live like an "atheist", regardless of faith. This would include deists, theists, naturalists and many more, but it wouldn't really fit fundamentalists, literalists, extremists and so on. It's kind of a secular life philosophy. What do you think? ... Sorry, I should take this to another thread, or should I do it in PM instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 Would I be dissappointed, yes. I would be dissappointed to not get to experiance life longer if I found out an afterlife was all false. But Im sure I would live this one with even more passion becasue of that knowing. Now I really didn't mean to set you up for this pointed question at all, but I'm going to ask it anyway. If you would live life with more passion here if you didn't believe there was an afterlife, is the belief in an afterlife serving you to live life to the fullest? Are you waiting for God to give you happiness? I'm sorry to ask this, but I have to. Take my 'ticket to heaven' that still leaves me with a real God, and a good God at that. What does your belief in God bring to your life here? Again this is a sincere desire on my part to understand something about what God means to you? I'll never set you up for a criticism. These are questions I'd really like to understand from your point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 Also, it actually can be "pragmatic theist", the shorthand it comes out the same, if a person so wants. I think that maybe the pragmatheist is someone who (regardless if he's an atheist or a theist) lives by a philosphy that in practical sense live like if God didn't exist. In other words, live like an "atheist", regardless of faith. This would include deists, theists, naturalists and many more, but it wouldn't really fit fundamentalists, literalists, extremists and so on. It's kind of a secular life philosophy. What do you think? ... Sorry, I should take this to another thread, or should I do it in PM instead? Yes that it. Sorry Brother Hans. I'm sick today and my brain is all mushy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Yes that it. Sorry Brother Hans. I'm sick today and my brain is all mushy. Get well soon, and on that note I'll leave my sidetrack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Would I be dissappointed, yes. I would be dissappointed to not get to experiance life longer if I found out an afterlife was all false. But Im sure I would live this one with even more passion becasue of that knowing. Now I really didn't mean to set you up for this pointed question at all, but I'm going to ask it anyway. If you would live life with more passion here if you didn't believe there was an afterlife, is the belief in an afterlife serving you to live life to the fullest? Antlerman, you can ask me anything and its even ok if you set me up haha I like being challanged to look more deeply at what I believe. If I didnt I sure would not hang around this forum I am not afriad to look anymore. I used to be but I think finally that fear is put to rest. I think there is not only the belief in an afterlife that might have made me more lazy but there is also teachings in universalism that teach that basically you are waiting on God to change us to be more like Jesus was when he was here. So even in universalsim there seems to be this focus on when our change comes.......and for most christians its the rapture, but it does seem to be a running theme in christianity, always waiting on something. Are you waiting for God to give you happiness? I'm sorry to ask this, but I have to. I believe at this time I have a measure of happiness if you will but I dont believe its full. I like how it says Abraham looked for another country, to me that means a higher plane of existance where there is no more hate. I dont think I can be fully happy till I can see all mankind happy and fulfilled. I know that sounds cheesy but it is my heart. Take my 'ticket to heaven' that still leaves me with a real God, and a good God at that. What does your belief in God bring to your life here? Well I wish you had the old me to compare to the new me. I was nothing like me now. I was very angry, used to rage alot on people. I didnt care about anyone but me. Incredibly selfish, not that Im not now but I am much much less. I used to be a real lush, in that I had no self control and would have ended up dead the way I was going. I give credit to God for the changes in me Antlerman because before I was walking in this relationship I wasnt changing.....I was so stuck. Again this is a sincere desire on my part to understand something about what God means to you? I'll never set you up for a criticism. These are questions I'd really like to understand from your point of view. again, just by reading your posts I wouldnt think you had wrong motives Antlerman. I think you sincerely care about people and want to understand them. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Live like there is no life after death, even if you believe there is one. That is very good imo what is pragmathiest? sojourner pragmatheist was a word created to describe 'practical atheism' Pragmatic atheist. Pragmatheist. And there was me thinking it was a typo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 I don't know that my view of life would change much if there were no afterlife. My faith, to my knowledge, doesn't really hinge on an afterlife, but rests in a understanding of a greater Love..........although every now and then, knowledge of an afterlife, i.e. funerals, difficult times, brings a "calm" to the storm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 I don't know that my view of life would change much if there were no afterlife. My faith, to my knowledge, doesn't really hinge on an afterlife, but rests in a understanding of a greater Love..........although every now and then, knowledge of an afterlife, i.e. funerals, difficult times, brings a "calm" to the storm. Words cannot describe how retarded that statement is... Your faith and knowledge dont hinge on an afterlife? LOL it is based on it! Why the fu*k be saved if you aren't going anywhere? So what you are saying is you really aren't a christian at heart? Right? Don't bother answering... ROFLMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 [off topic] I'd humbly suggest that the capitalization of this new religious orientation could be tweaked to "PragmAtheist"- as I was reading 'pragma-theist' before Antlerman's clarification. [/off topic] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 I don't know that my view of life would change much if there were no afterlife. My faith, to my knowledge, doesn't really hinge on an afterlife, but rests in a understanding of a greater Love..........although every now and then, knowledge of an afterlife, i.e. funerals, difficult times, brings a "calm" to the storm. end3 I can relate to your words of an understanding of a greater love sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Thanks soj, Can someone enlighten me to what ROFLMAO means so I can be properly offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 rollin on floor laughing my ass off and lol is laughing out loud lol sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 How could a christian continue to be a christian if they found out there was no afterlife? I mean, after all - this was promised by Jesus. So this would mean Jesus either didn't know what he was talking about, or he did and he was lying, or he never said it to begin with and some writer just put those words into his mouth long after Jesus was gone. But wait a minute - we already have that scenario - "whatever you ask in my name, I will do it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Live like there is no life after death, even if you believe there is one. That is very good imo what is pragmathiest? sojourner pragmatheist was a word created to describe 'practical atheism' Pragmatic atheist. Pragmatheist. Also, it actually can be "pragmatic theist", the shorthand it comes out the same, if a person so wants. I think that maybe the pragmatheist is someone who (regardless if he's an atheist or a theist) lives by a philosphy that in practical sense live like if God didn't exist. In other words, live like an "atheist", regardless of faith. This would include deists, theists, naturalists and many more, but it wouldn't really fit fundamentalists, literalists, extremists and so on. It's kind of a secular life philosophy. What do you think? ... Sorry, I should take this to another thread, or should I do it in PM instead? Please start a thread for this. I never noticed the tag you two carried. I'd like to hear more about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 I am not afriad to look anymore. I used to be but I think finally that fear is put to rest. Why were you afraid before, but not now? What were you afraid of? I think there is not only the belief in an afterlife that might have made me more lazy but there is also teachings in universalism that teach that basically you are waiting on God to change us to be more like Jesus was when he was here. So even in universalsim there seems to be this focus on when our change comes.......and for most christians its the rapture, but it does seem to be a running theme in christianity, always waiting on something. Really? Do you feel that they promise change as a selling point, but then don’t really know how to address that part of the process? Do they feel that they (or maybe just the current leadership of that particular congregation) don’t understand that process themselves and are putting it on God and you to wait? Is it because they believe it, but don’t understand how it works? Why aren't they offering some guidance for you to find your own path. Ok so I’ll tell you then, it’s entirely up to you. If you wish to find happiness in this life you must choose to see it. You must let go of fear and live in the moment. Make every moment the only moment of life. Not an hour for now, nor an hour ago. Life is in the present only. It’s yours and yours alone to create and shape into what you wish life to be. You may of course believe in ideals and hold God up an object of that faith in those ideals if it serves you. But in the end, you have to walk that road. You and you alone. There is no “footprints in the sand†salvation. It’s your faith that sustains you and saves you. It’s your faith in the ideals of what you value in life that you wish to follow and to become a part of your 'soul', so to speak, whether you apply the face of God to that or not, and it is that alone which will change you. It’s every step, at every moment of now, embracing the ideals that offer peace, community, and strength to you. It truly is your faith that saves you. Make sense? I believe at this time I have a measure of happiness if you will but I dont believe its full. I like how it says Abraham looked for another country, to me that means a higher plane of existance where there is no more hate. I dont think I can be fully happy till I can see all mankind happy and fulfilled. I know that sounds cheesy but it is my heart. Stop. No. Here’s the secret. Life is now. There is no such thing as perfection. Nothing anywhere in the entire universe is perfect. Perfect is a concept like “zero†and it has no real equivalent in the real world. It is impossible for you to pick up zero apples, and is impossible to have absolute beauty, or absolute knowledge, or ‘full’ happiness. It’s all a measure of degrees. One way to look at it is that imperfection in the universe is necessary for it to function. And really it’s therefore not imperfection, but perfection in that it's what makes it work! It works through processes of imperfection, and therfore is perfect as is.. Life is growth. Without degrees of state, there would be no growth. You can have moments of great happiness, followed by less than fulfilling moments. But these imperfections are part of the whole, and are therefore perfection. When you can learn to embrace every moment as perfect, then you will have ‘full’ happiness. Well I wish you had the old me to compare to the new me. I was nothing like me now. I was very angry, used to rage alot on people. I didnt care about anyone but me. Incredibly selfish, not that Im not now but I am much much less. I used to be a real lush, in that I had no self control and would have ended up dead the way I was going. I give credit to God for the changes in me Antlerman because before I was walking in this relationship I wasnt changing.....I was so stuck. I give credit to you. God is there for you, in a sense, and your belief in God has helped you. But again, as Jesus himself said, “You’re faith has made you wholeâ€. Congratulations. You had this in you the whole time. God helped you find it. again, just by reading your posts I wouldnt think you had wrong motives Antlerman. I think you sincerely care about people and want to understand them. sojourner Well thank you. I am a curious soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 How could a christian continue to be a christian if they found out there was no afterlife? I mean, after all - this was promised by Jesus. So this would mean Jesus either didn't know what he was talking about, or he did and he was lying, or he never said it to begin with and some writer just put those words into his mouth long after Jesus was gone. Would you please quote where Jesus promises or seems to promise an afterlife? If you don't know chapter and verse, can you at least quote the words? Maybe it just slips my mind at the moment but I don't think there is a passage in the four Gospels that definitely and unambiguously means that. Terms like "kingdom of heaven" are often taken by Christians to mean afterlife but I don't think Jesus would have meant that. Again, maybe something important is slipping my mind. If so, I want to be reminded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 ??? I suppose we could start with John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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