Are Atheistic Fundamentalists Any More Desirable Than The Jim Jones University Brand?

[Ouroboros]

I have to add one little factual detail, human combustion has been debunked. I saw a show (BBC I think) that brought it up, and the experiments proved the concept (science works people). There are even eye witnesses to a murder where they got the explanation to how it works.

 

Spontaneous Human Combustion is not any spontaneous more than me starting a fire. The human combustion works this way: with right set of clothes, and dousing the cloths with certain kinds of accelerants and then light it. The victim is either unconscious or dead from a heart attack and won't fight the fire. Because of the choice of accelerant the clothes won't burn too fast and at a certain point the body fat becomes the "oil" in the lamp and the clothes the wick. The counter arguments against this explanation has been that this kind of fire wouldn’t burn the bones, but the experiment they did (on a pig) proves that it does, because the slow rate of burning eventually causes the core of the bone to become the fuel to the fire and the bone is burnt from inside and becomes so brittle that it more or less get pulverized.

 

If Evolution is not more explained than human combustion, well then evolution is quite well proven to be acceptable to any person.

[Antlerman]

Our Savior is Education! Praise Education! Save us one and all from ignorance.

[Dave]

I think that the point is that theists are not all sinners and atheists are not all saints.

It's a point that does not have to be made since no one has ever claimed otherwise. The point that can be defended by human history is that religions are used as divisive tools, they have not brought peace to humanity. Why is that an important point? Because religions claim to do the opposite. They are supposed to be under the command of some god that obviously could care less about human lives, or at least the christian one doesn't care since it ordered the deaths of millions of innocent men, women, and children. And if you look at the whole myth, it killed all but a few humans itself because it was displeased.

 

No one has ever claimed that being an Atheist makes one good. For centuries people have claimed that being religious makes one good. History proves otherwise.

[Dave]

I support, stridently so, the right to strident debate.

No you do not. Asking me to not reply is proof of that. The "stalking" bit is only in your mind.

[Dave]

This seems to mimic "hate the sin, love the sinner" Falwellian rhetoric. How is this different?

It's not "falwellian" rhetoric, it christian rhetoric. Isn't that what that guy you believe in preached? And it's not just the religious that actually follow that cliche. Many Secular Humanists are able to separate the wrong that a person might do from the person. It's a hard concept for some to grasp. Some can only see monsters where others can see a human that needs some help or needs to be kept from society but still treated like a human in a humane way.

[Dave]

It was a slam on atheists. You can pose a view without coming off in attack mode. He came off like many hardcore Christians on this site...telling us what is wrong with us. Learning implies that he presented something that we didn't already know...how is that teaching anything?

It was a slam on all Atheists. I seriously doubt he was an agnostic or any other non believer. All of his arguments were standard christian fare. I have no doubt he was a christian trying to pass himself off as a non believer.

[Ouroboros]

Dave, I think you're wrong. Have you checked his website and read his testimony? He's more critical against religion and brings up Biblical contradictions, and not saying anything against Atheists on his site. My understanding is that PV's standpoint was against radical atheism and not atheism in general.

[Dave]

I agree, the label fundementalist gets thrown around rather freely here. I can also see how it appears that atheists have their viewpoints firmly entrenched. The truth is, at least for me, that my viewpoint that can be summed up in my rejection of the god belief is always open to change if good evidence or a good argument can be provided that makes it rational for me to change my position....

And every Atheist that has ever lived, or will live, holds this same thought. Even those of us that are secure enough to say these gods do not exist. Show us proof, not silly rationalizations, but proof, and we'll have no choice but to admit a god exists. We just have higher standards of proof than others.

It is this trait that I think a lot of atheists have that causes them to be viewed as hard asses. We've been there, done that with a lot of claims yet the wild claims keep on coming without the equal level of evidence to support those claims. I don't generally go on the offensive on those who believe wild claims but if wild claims are made to me, I will challenge them.

What gets me is when those claims become insulting to our intelligence. That bit with the idiot and his banana is one such insulting claim. They have to believe that we are extremely stupid to even consider that we would fall for something like that.

[Dave]

Dave, I think you're wrong. Have you checked his website and read his testimony?

No, but from what he posted here, he has no credibility with me.

[Legion]

The problem as I see it, is that the difference between hard-core atheism and Christian fundamentalism is tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum. They are both idealoguic, arrogant, intolerant, smug, sneering, insulting. and arbitrary. They have both drawn conclusions in their minds and then seek to crush any argument that contradicts or invalidates that conclusion. This is not how an objective-minded critical thinker functions.

I don't think PV was a Christian in disguise Dave. I even think there was a small grain of truth to what he was saying. His style though left much to be desired in my opinion. He could have gone about making his point in a myriad of other ways. He almost struck me as a militant agnostic. Agnosticism is right damn it! Everyone else is wrong!

 

If I had been him I simply would have asked this question. Do fundamentalist Atheists exist?

[The Sage Nabooru]

LOL......No no no no no, I won't go into it.....just, LOL.

[Dave]

What the hell??? I've only read of few posts and I'm already scatching my head in disbelif here. Such misinformation! Lumping all atheists into the same category? Stating that evolution is equal in evidence to spontaneous creation? Honestly, how is this possible?

It isn't. One would have to be totally ignorant of science to make such an outlandish claim.... or have an anti-science, anti-intellectual, agenda.

I just want to take on one thing here: Evolution. When Dave, or I, or anyone else says evolution is a fact, they mean it is a process of nature. It is like wind, erosion, and gravity.....

That and everything else you said is so simple that I am truly bewildered as to why some people just cannot grasp it.

[Ouroboros]

There are liberal and radical views in every ideology and every view of life. So yes, radical atheism can exist just as much as radical theism. And in both cases it can go wrong, very wrong. I don't think Dawkins et al falls into this category, but I do believe radicalism is the worst disease, not religion per se. You have radical views when someone refuses to accept the existence of the opposing views. And I don't think anyone on this site is like that, but I do think that some have a very strong opinion about opposing views, which I don't mind. We have the right to have strong opinions. I don't see radical atheism existing here or in the western world as of now, but I do think that Communism does show the idea of a radical ideology which condemns any religion for the sake of religion and violently try to suppress it, and strangely enough Communism fell into the same trap of becoming religious about their ideology. In conclusion, radical ideas, views or ideologies can be very serious for everyone and can cause a lot of hurt for many people, and we have to be open to criticism even against our own views so we don’t fall into the same trap.

[Dave]

I don't think PV was a Christian in disguise Dave. I even think there was a small grain of truth to what he was saying. His style though left much to be desired in my opinion. He could have gone about making his point in a myriad of other ways. He almost struck me as a militant agnostic. Agnosticism is right damn it! Everyone else is wrong!

It was his refusal to understand how he was wrong on evolution that clinched it for me.

If I had been him I simply would have asked this question. Do fundamentalist Atheists exist?

In his mind and with those that have a dire need to attack Atheists.

[Legion]

LOL......No no no no no, I won't go into it.....just, LOL.

Why not go into it Sage?

[Legion]

Well said Hans.

[Dave]

....In conclusion, radical ideas, views or ideologies can be very serious for everyone and can cause a lot of hurt for many people, and we have to be open to criticism even against our own views so we don’t fall into the same trap.

All true, but this was not criticism, it was an all out attack. He wasn't pointing out any logical problems with Atheism, he just wanted to attack Atheists and science.

[Vigile]

I don't think PV is a Christian in disguise. I've read quite a few of his other posts and they have been spot on. I'm just going on the theory that he had a bad day today.

[Ouroboros]

All true, but this was not criticism, it was an all out attack. He wasn't pointing out any logical problems with Atheism, he just wanted to attack Atheists and science.

Well, I don't agree, but that's okay if you keep a different opinion. I think Vigile got it right, PV had a bad day or something. If you read PV's testimony you might understand better where this guy comes from.

[Dave]

Well, I don't agree, but that's okay if you keep a different opinion. I think Vigile got it right, PV had a bad day or something. If you read PV's testimony you might understand better where this guy comes from.

He mentioned an illness. Does anyone know what that was?

[Ouroboros]

He mentioned an illness. Does anyone know what that was?

http://permscape.blogspot.com/2006/11/jacc...onal-story.html

[Legion]

I had forgotten about PV's illness. I am beginning to suspect that Vigile is right. Maybe PV has had a rough couple of days.

[currentchristian]

Our Savior is Education! Praise Education! Save us one and all from ignorance.

 

The Germans of 1933 were quite educated, among the most educated in the world, and Germany was the seat of European culture, the bastion of liberal religion (most of 19th century biblical higher criticism came from Germany, thus Q (German: Quelle), the alleged source of the synoptic gospels), and yet....and yet...and yet...look what the Germans did in 1933 and for the next 12 years!

 

Education is great and wonderful and necessary and glorious, (I'm an educator, remember), but it most definitly is not a savior. No way.

 

-CC in MA

[Legion]

Education is great and wonderful and necessary and glorious, (I'm an educator, remember), but it most definitly is not a savior. No way.

Weeeave, weeeeave, weave us toooogehether.

Weave us togehether in intelligence and love.

[currentchristian]

....yes, radical atheism can exist just as much as radical theism. And in both cases it can go wrong, very wrong....I do believe radicalism is the worst disease, not religion per se....radical ideas, views or ideologies can be very serious for everyone and can cause a lot of hurt for many people, and we have to be open to criticism even against our own views so we don’t fall into the same trap.

 

Well said.

 

Radicalism (extremism, militancy) brings pain upon oneself and upon those around one. We all have to be on guard (innoculated) against the virus of radicalism. And we need booster shots now and then.

 

-CC in MA