Which Is The True Religion?

[Kuroikaze]

Pug, you should really get your facts right – the original Buddhism had no heaven, nor hell.

Puh leese laaaaa. I'm here in the East among Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus - and you telling me to check the facts?

 

A hell, according to many religious beliefs, is an afterlife of suffering where the wicked or unrighteous dead are punished. Hells are almost always depicted as underground. In Christianity and Islam, hell is fiery. Hells from other traditions, however, are sometimes cold and gloomy. Some hells are described in graphic and gruesome detail (for example, Buddhist naraka).

Religions with a linear divine history often depict hell as endless (for example, see Hell in Christian beliefs). Religions with a cyclic history often depict hell as an intermediary period between incarnations (for example, see Chinese Di Yu).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

 

 

Just because you live with MODERN Buddhists doesn't mean you know anything about historical buddhism. Most modern Buddhists do have some concept of the afterlife and some of them believe in hell (the only exception I can think of would be most ZEN Buddhists) ...however Sidharta Guatama most certainly did NOT believe in hell, and was also an agnostic.

 

If you study the history of each form of Buddhism you will find, every time, that at some point a belief in hell and or gods, crept it to it, Usually from the culture in which Buddhism moved into,

 

Tibetan Buddhism is a great example of this, the pantheon of Gods that most Tibetan Buddhists follow came from a melding of Buddhism with the local tribal religions that already existed in Tibet.

[pug]

Transmigration of Souls & Reincarnation

The Six States of Existence

Buddhist teachings incorporate countless manifestations of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. To Buddhists, the transmigration of souls from one creature to another has continued unabated for aeons. Those reaching full enlightenment are few, for the path to awakening is long and arduous. But the path is not closed, and in any period, one or more -- or none at all -- may appear. It is said that Gautama (Siddhartha, Shaka, the historical Buddha) did not attain enlightenment in one life time, but rather struggled over many lifes and through numerous incarnations to finally become a Bodhi-being. In some Buddhist traditions, the term Bodhisattva actually refers to Guatama Buddha prior to his enlightenment -- including the countless lives he passed through en route to Buddhahood. These earlier lives are called the Jatakas (birth stories), and they are a very frequent subject of Buddhist lore and art.

 

There are six states of existence before one reaches Buddhahood. The lowest three states are called the three evil paths, or three bad states. They are (1) people in hells; (2) hungry ghosts; (3) animals. The highest three states are (4) Asuras; (5) Humans; (6) Devas. All beings in these six states are doomed to death and rebirth in a recurring cycle over countless ages -- unless they can break free from desire and attain enlightenment.

 

BAHhhh... MODERN bUDDHISTS? good grief. You go do your own homework.

[Taphophilia]

One this thread he says in one post that there is a limit to God's love. In the next post he says God's love never ends.

Simple example, you see your son reaching for a hot pot. You say, "don't touch that!" He refuses. There's a limit to your love (you think go ahead, cruel to be kind?). He touches it and burns his hand. You comfort him, you apply first aid, you even say told you so, but it's for your own good. Your love never ends.

 

You folks keep on keep on harping how cruel the Christian God is. Have you found the answer, rationale?

 

pug, do you even have children? I do. If my two year old was reaching for a hot pot, I would pick them up and get them away from the hot pot. If anything is within my ability to keep them safe and out of danger, I do it. That's what parents do. They keep their kids safe and out of harms way. If there is a limit to your love for your child you suck as a parent. Plain and simple.

[Amethyst]

The Christian God does not apply first aid, and hell in the Christian religion can hardly be compared to a hot pot.

 

A better analogy would be like taking the child, and dumping the boiling hot liquid all over him, and then making him feel that pain repeatedly. Not only for an instant, but for the rest of his life. Now, if someone in real life did that, child protection services would be called and they'd go to jail and the kid would likely go to a foster home.

 

You don't get that with the Christian god. You don't get a reprieve. You get eternal torture for the sole crime of being human! That is not justice. That's not love. It's diabolical!

[pug]

You and other christian exhibit the worst form of cowardice in the history or human kind. Buddying up with a mass-murderer so it doesn’t happen to you.

 

hOw ELEGANT.

 

I notice you are from Switzerland - isn't that the country that declared itself neutral during world war 2? Not wanting to associate with Hitler, the mass murderer eh? Is that heroic? Or cowardly?

 

what about the other mass murderers? Most of the US presidents for example? In Vietnam? In North Korea? Now in Iraq? Are you also accusing US citizens for buddying up with him?

[pug]

You don't get that with the Christian god. You don't get a reprieve. You get eternal torture for the sole crime of being human! That is not justice. That's not love. It's diabolical

Excuse me? you do get reprieves, lots of times. Why you even get the ultimate reprieve. You can dis-own God. See? no more hell or torture. Don't be so darmatic - you do not get eternal torture for being a human. You can simply convince yourself that God has not been scientifically proven to exist and you're off the hook.

 

If my two year old was reaching for a hot pot, I would pick them up and get them away from the hot pot. If anything is within my ability to keep them safe and out of danger, I do it. That's what parents do. They keep their kids safe and out of harms way. If there is a limit to your love for your child you suck as a parent. Plain and simple.

 

Another drama. What if you were not around to pick the ever curious sweet pea up? You are going to watch over him 24/7? You can only do so much. Cna't love them to death right?

[Sparrow]

.....

 

Tibetan Buddhism is a great example of this, the pantheon of Gods that most Tibetan Buddhists follow came from a melding of Buddhism with the local tribal religions that already existed in Tibet.

 

yeah, yeah ... whatever you say ...

 

thereveda buddhism is also one of oldest remaining buddhaist - it's still practiced in sri lanka.

 

my father, his father, and his father, etc, were Buddhists - I kind of have personal experience in this. it's in the family.

 

Enjoy

 

Spatz

[Sparrow]

You and other christian exhibit the worst form of cowardice in the history or human kind. Buddying up with a mass-murderer so it doesn’t happen to you.

 

hOw ELEGANT.

 

I notice you are from Switzerland - isn't that the country that declared itself neutral during world war 2? Not wanting to associate with Hitler, the mass murderer eh? Is that heroic? Or cowardly?

 

what about the other mass murderers? Most of the US presidents for example? In Vietnam? In North Korea? Now in Iraq? Are you also accusing US citizens for buddying up with him?

 

Hey, an answer like that really kind of proves my point.

 

Injecting a national / racial slant to it really shows your true colors.

 

Pug, you're really sickening ... for all you know I could be an American working on some ground breaking defence project or medical project.

 

Either way, the point is christians have no morals and no spine - it's all about self preservation. The only reason some of you "act moral" is because you're terrified of the consequences.

 

You don't act moral because it is good for society as a whole, you do it because your cowards.

 

You weasel!

 

Spatz.

 

P.S. Switzerland is a very small country Pug. There were german divisions bigger than the whole swiss army put together. What the hell were they going to do? Fight germany by themselves?

[garrisonjj]

How many religions are there in the world from which to locate the "true" one?

 

According to David Barrett and team, there are 19 major world religious groupings in the world which are subdivided into a total of about 10,000 distinct religions. Of the latter, there were 270 religions and para-religions which had over a half million adherents in the year 2000 CE. Within Christianity, they have identified 34,000 separate groups (denominations, sects, individual unaffiliated churches, para-church groups, etc) in the world. "Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations."

 

Even considering a single religion, Christianity, within a single country, there are often thousands of individual "Christian confessions and denominations." For example, Barrett et al. states that there are:

 

4,684 groups in the U.S.

3,364 in South Africa.

2,079 in Nigeria.

1,581 in Brazil.

1,327 in South-central Asia.

 

Among other English-speaking countries, there are:

 

828 groups in the UK.

469 in Canada.

267 in Australia

175 in New Zealand.

 

Differences in the beliefs and practices of various faith groups:

Probably the one area where religions differ the most is over the nature of deity. Various groups teach Agnosticism, Animism, Atheism, Strong Atheism, Deism, Duotheism, Henotheism, Monism, Monotheism, Panentheism, Pantheism, Polytheism, the Trinity, and probably some others that we have missed. More details.

 

Perhaps the next greatest range of beliefs are about the fate of people after death: whether there is simple annihilation, some form of energy-less existence as taught by the ancient Hebrews, Purgatory as taught by the Roman Catholic Church, Heaven or Paradise as taught by many religions, Hell which is also taught by many faiths, Limbo, reincarnation, transmigration of the soul, nirvana, an alternative world much like Earth, and probably some other places or states that we have missed.

 

There is also a great range of beliefs and practices among different religions over other theological beliefs, ritual, organization, family structure, personal sexual behavior, and other topics. For example, differences exist on matters such as: abortion access, adult celibacy, animal sacrifices. appearance factors (shaving, jewelry), birth control usage, calendar, clergy celibacy, clergy gender, clergy organization, meeting day, documentation, family power sharing, family types, gender of deities, homosexual rights, meeting place, nature of deities, nature of humanity, new year date, number of deities, origin of the universe, prayer, pre-marital sex, role of women, sacred texts, suicide, surgical modifications to the body, special clothing, symbols, etc. More details

 

To our knowledge, no two religions teach the same message or expect the same practices from their followers. One would be hard pressed to find two faith groups within the same religion which have identical teachings and practices.

 

If a "true religion" exists, then it would probably have to be one or a few faith groups within one of the 10,000 religions. All of the other religions and faith groups would be in error.

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reltrue.htm

 

 

Not a fuckin one!

[Amethyst]

You don't get that with the Christian god. You don't get a reprieve. You get eternal torture for the sole crime of being human! That is not justice. That's not love. It's diabolical

Excuse me? you do get reprieves, lots of times. Why you even get the ultimate reprieve. You can dis-own God. See? no more hell or torture. Don't be so darmatic - you do not get eternal torture for being a human. You can simply convince yourself that God has not been scientifically proven to exist and you're off the hook.

 

Not according to the Bible. You get eternal torture for the following things:

 

1. Being unlucky enough to be born gay. (Which is debatable, but according to the fundies, this is the case.)

2. Being unlucky enough to be born in a region of the world in which Christianity is not the predominate religion, so you do not convert.

3. Being born in a region like the US and not believing the fundies.

4. Being a liberal Christian (also according to the fundies.)

 

Hell is the Christian belief. If you do not believe in hell, then you are not really Christian. You're just taking the label "Christian" for whatever reasons.

 

Do you even know what the word reprieve means? I'm guessing you don't since it sounds like English is not your first language. Hell is NOT a reprieve. It is the total opposite from that word.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reprieve

 

re·prieve /rɪˈpriv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-preev] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -prieved, -priev·ing, noun

–verb (used with object)

1. to delay the impending punishment or sentence of (a condemned person).

2. to relieve temporarily from any evil.

–noun 3. a respite from impending punishment, as from execution of a sentence of death.

4. a warrant authorizing this.

5. any respite or temporary relief.

[Kuroikaze]

yeah, yeah ... whatever you say ...

 

thereveda buddhism is also one of oldest remaining buddhaist - it's still practiced in sri lanka.

 

I know this, but it is still not ORIGINAL buddhism. Original Buddhism doesn't exist any more, neither does original Christianity or Islam or any other religion for that matter.

 

Original Buddhism died out in India over 1500 years ago when it was reabsorbed into Hinduism.

 

my father, his father, and his father, etc, were Buddhists - I kind of have personal experience in this. it's in the family.

 

 

Again I fail to see what your personal experiences with Modern Buddhism have to do with the Buddhism that existed in India...or even China for that matter, 1500 years ago. The religion is changed from what it was then.

 

There are plenty of books on the history of Buddhism that bear out what I'm saying as true. It is not my fault that you don't study history. Sidharta Guatama WAS an agnostic, about both the existence of God and the afterlife.

 

He actually explicitly said that people should not even be ASKING those questions because spending all day debating God's existence would do nothing to end human suffering. During his own life the Hindu Brahmans spent all their time debating these very sorts of things, and Buddha took issue with it.

 

Its one of the reasons I like most modern forms of Buddhism almost as little as Christianity, Sidharta Guatama had some good ideas but most of those ideas have been abandoned by the majority of modern Buddhists.

[Kuroikaze]

Transmigration of Souls & Reincarnation

The Six States of Existence

Buddhist teachings incorporate countless manifestations of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. To Buddhists, the transmigration of souls from one creature to another has continued unabated for aeons. Those reaching full enlightenment are few, for the path to awakening is long and arduous. But the path is not closed, and in any period, one or more -- or none at all -- may appear. It is said that Gautama (Siddhartha, Shaka, the historical Buddha) did not attain enlightenment in one life time, but rather struggled over many lifes and through numerous incarnations to finally become a Bodhi-being. In some Buddhist traditions, the term Bodhisattva actually refers to Guatama Buddha prior to his enlightenment -- including the countless lives he passed through en route to Buddhahood. These earlier lives are called the Jatakas (birth stories), and they are a very frequent subject of Buddhist lore and art.

 

There are six states of existence before one reaches Buddhahood. The lowest three states are called the three evil paths, or three bad states. They are (1) people in hells; (2) hungry ghosts; (3) animals. The highest three states are (4) Asuras; (5) Humans; (6) Devas. All beings in these six states are doomed to death and rebirth in a recurring cycle over countless ages -- unless they can break free from desire and attain enlightenment.

 

BAHhhh... MODERN bUDDHISTS? good grief. You go do your own homework.

 

ok, but none of these ideas came from the original Buddha himself...so where did they come from? Buddhism in India practically disappeared about 1500 years ago. Most of these ideas were incorporated into Buddhism at a later date...and primarily from other Asian cultures, not India. Ideas are not developed in a vacuum, they were generally incorporated from ideas that already exited in the culture.

 

It is absurd to think Buddhism existed in some kind of sealed chamber and never changed at all in the last 2500 years since its conception.

 

I'll admit I have been out of college for a while, so it has been a few years since my classes on Buddhism...but I haven't forgot THAT much.

 

Of course, it isn't exactly known for sure when some of these ideas were incorporated or from where, I'd comment more on that now, but I have to go to work, so maybe later

[Sparrow]

...

...

 

Hi There Kuroikaze,

 

Really, I don’t want to get into an argument with you. We’re both on the same side, and I’m not the enemy.

 

Nor am I going to debate the “fine” points of scholarly tracts and books, when I’ve seen other scholarly compostions that say differently.

 

At the end of the day, it’s all rubbish because they’re debating the theology of who said what, when and where, what he was wearing when he said it and what he really meant when he said it. It’s totally irrelevant.

 

Please don’t forget that Pug is using this point to say that since all religions have a heaven and / or a hell, then “it must be true”. Which, even if all religions did have heavens and hells, would be also totally irrelevant.

 

Please also don’t forget that I was responding to the point that Pug made about Buddhism having a heaven and a hell - to justify his point - which clearly, as a blanket statement, is untrue. Whilst some Buddhism’s do, there are some that do not. There are also other beliefs that throughout history do not have heavens and/or hells or only heavens or only hells.

 

Anyway, I’m not the enemy, and in reality, neither is Pug. The enemy is this absolutely idiotic idea that “if there’s 10,000 religions and they all believe in heaven and hell, then heaven and hell must exist”.

 

Best Regards

 

Spatz

[Rachelness]

Pug, I went to Malaysia last summer and I just found it sad how much headway Islam and Christianity have made into that part of the world. Why do you think the rest of the world has any particular insight into matters of god? Your particular form of Christianity is very American, but Christianity in general is a very western religion. The only reason you're a Christian is because some (perhaps latent) racist in America or Europe decided that your culture and set of belief systems is inferior to theirs and needed to be changed. How do you feel about that?

[Kuroikaze]

Anyway, I’m not the enemy, and in reality, neither is Pug. The enemy is this absolutely idiotic idea that “if there’s 10,000 religions and they all believe in heaven and hell, then heaven and hell must exist”.

 

Hey I totally agree with you, sorry if you thought my post was combative, cause I didn't really mean it to be. Honestly, i had just woken up when I read it...and I'm not much of a morning person, so I might have come across more harsh than I intended.

 

It just seemed like you were suggesting that the Buddhism that is being practiced today is essentially the same as Buddhism from 1500 or 2500 years ago, (which was primarily what I was disagreeing with) though perhaps I just misread your intent.

 

I agree that it is silly to think that just because all religions believe in Hell means it is real. It's a clear logical fallacy, and besides every religion has totally different ideas on what heaven and hell are even like. so no argument there.

[R. S. Martin]

the founding Secretary of the Assemblies of God, Ozman's experience was the "touch felt round the world," an event which "made the Pentecostal Movement of the Twentieth Century."

I read in another site that yes, AOG is from Pentecostal. The above quote is from another site

http://www.oru.edu/university/library/holy...t/pentorg1.html

 

AOG is the second largest (in US) "off-shoot" from the Pentecostal denomination. I think United P is the largest "off-shoot"

 

 

Pug is AOG and says his church is an off-shoot of the Pentecostals. Antlerman, an exChristian, says AOG existed long before United Pentecostals. I don't know if United Pentecostals is the same as Pentecostals. Pug cites Oral Roberts University info as authoritative. Somehow, I wouldn't trust anything ORU posts other than its own rules and programs.

[MQTA]

"True religion" is an oxymoron.

 

That was my initial impression, but to expand upon it: Religion is subjective, not objective. Everyone views the gods from different GPS coordinates. No one sees exactly the same thing; therefore, from an objective POV, truth is not possible.

 

Oh, that's a nice analogy. I guess even if we have similar GPS coords, our WAAS accuracy may differ still.

[pug]

sparrow

P.S. Switzerland is a very small country Pug. There were german divisions bigger than the whole swiss army put together. What the hell were they going to do? Fight germany by themselves?

 

P.S. Israel is also a very small country. There were Arab countries with armies bigger than the whole Israel population put together. What the hell were they going to do? Fight them all by themselves?

 

P.S.S. North Vietnam is a very small country. There was THE U S A war machine bigger than their whole population put together. What the hell were they going to do? Fight USA all by themselves?

 

P.S.S.S Japan is a very small country. During WWII, there was China with armies bigger than the Jap population put together. What the hell were they going to do? Conquer China?

 

Perhaps there were other reasons for the Swiss to declare their neutrality? However, I think the point is your idea of buddying up with a mass murderer. So, you think that the ordinary Germans just stood by or pretended not to know when he committed his crimes? So they are cowards too?

 

What about the time the US released Agent Orange over Cambodia? Are all US citizens cowards by buddying up to this mass slaughtering action - which still has its after effects. (And I've not even mentioned Hiroshima or Nagasaki yet)

[Sparrow]

BLAH, BLAH

 

Hah!! Geez, that just gave me a good laugh!!!

 

You're a right pillock, aren't you Pug?

 

Everyone here is picking on you because you're ... well ... a cowardly christian who has no spine and can't stand-up for humanity, you're also ... welll ... a stupid twat, and you think I'm an easy target - because I live and Switzerland and you going to make me feel guilty for the Swiss declaring neutrality in 1674??

 

You're "home skooled", aren't you?

 

Listen Pug, I'd like to say "nice try", but it wasn't even that. You're relatively typical of all the christians who are only christians because that want salvation and simply can't do the right thing because it's right.

 

Do you honestly think, even for a second, God would want a right, grovelling little coward like you in heaven?

 

Listen diddums, go change your diaper, grow some intestinal fortitude (that means courage) and when you're ready to have a go, do it properly, but be ready.

 

Damned weasel!

 

Spatz

[Vigile]

BLAH, BLAH

 

Hah!! Geez, that just gave me a good laugh!!!

 

You're a right pillock, aren't you Pug?

 

Everyone here is picking on you because you're ... well ... a cowardly christian who has no spine and can't stand-up for humanity, you're also ... welll ... a stupid twat, and you think I'm an easy target - because I live and Switzerland and you going to make me feel guilty for the Swiss declaring neutrality in 1674??

 

You're "home skooled", aren't you?

 

Listen Pug, I'd like to say "nice try", but it wasn't even that. You're relatively typical of all the christians who are only christians because that want salvation and simply can't do the right thing because it's right.

 

Do you honestly think, even for a second, God would want a right, grovelling little coward like you in heaven?

 

Listen diddums, go change your diaper, grow some intestinal fortitude (that means courage) and when you're ready to have a go, do it properly, but be ready.

 

Damned weasel!

 

Spatz

 

Sweet!

 

Now this is a great example of why I always read your posts Sparrow.

[Sparrow]

BLAH, BLAH

 

...

 

Spatz

 

Sweet!

 

Now this is a great example of why I always read your posts Sparrow.

 

Hey Vigile!

 

Sapciba! Kak dila?

 

Just as an aside - this Pug character, it's a joke, isn't it?

 

;-)

 

Spatz

[Vigile]

Hey Vigile!

 

Sapciba! Kak dila?

 

Narmana

 

Just as an aside - this Pug character, it's a joke, isn't it?

 

;-)

 

Spatz

 

Koneshna. Eto durak.

[pug]

sparrow,

...a stupid twat, and you think I'm an easy target

It's been known that the best defense is offense... so go girl - you have the balls (that means courage too) to do it alright.

 

Rachel,

The only reason you're a Christian is because some (perhaps latent) racist in America or Europe decided that your culture and set of belief systems is inferior to theirs and needed to be changed. How do you feel about that?

 

We had Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist influence as well. Did they too decided our culture and set of beliefs were inferior?

 

We were governed by the Portugese, Dutch, English and Japanese at various periods of time.

 

I think the Christian aspect should be looked at differently. I am at odds to answer your question of "how do i feel about it?". (I embraced Christianity late in life and after a number of extraordinary circumstances.)

 

Like all colonisation, i'm sure there's a lot of mass convertion. Yes, that happened. But it looks like Islam did a better job on the indigenious people (Malays) or else we'll be a Christian country today (ha ha, the Westerners failed).

[pug]

Hah!! Geez, that just gave me a good laugh!!!

 

You're a right pillock, aren't you Pug?

 

so.. you are looking for a spat huh?

 

Everyone here is picking on you because you're ... well ... a cowardly christian who has no spine

if i have no spine, why am i not offended by your name-calling? Hey CT note, this is the "others" i'm talking about.

 

and can't stand-up for humanity,

oh humanity sure, yes but scum like you? Hmmm, i guess you can be forgiven.

 

you're also ... welll ... a stupid twat,

guys can be stupid but they don't have twats, to be called a twat should be good? LOL

 

and you think I'm an easy target - because I live and Switzerland and you going to make me feel guilty for the Swiss declaring neutrality in 1674??

duhhh... easy target for what? I was merely regurgitating world history that any educated person would know. Just because you are less informed... you don't have to show up your stupidity.

 

You're "home skooled", aren't you?

No i was not. Is this type of education inferior? And you are the ultimate proof of superior education?

 

Listen Pug, I'd like to say "nice try", but it wasn't even that. You're relatively typical of all the christians who are only christians because that want salvation

Yes, i want salvation. Is this bad? Or cowardly? Or both?

[pug]

and simply can't do the right thing because it's right.

That's relative and not typical. And you are doing the right thing with your nasty post? It's justified right? Feel better now?

 

Do you honestly think, even for a second, God would want a right, grovelling little coward like you in heaven?

You silly puffed up twat - do you honestly think, for a nano second, what God wants? But don't worry your smart fat butt, you don't even have a hell to go to.

 

Listen diddums, go change your diaper, grow some intestinal fortitude (that means courage) and when you're ready to have a go, do it properly, but be ready.

Why need i do that? Like i've always stated, there are no prizes for who could insult the other better or who could be nastier or be top jerk. Now, please pull up your smelly thong and try to stay neutral.

 

Damned weasel!

ah sweet sparrow Spatz!