chefranden Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Vulcans Nixed: You Can’t Have Logic Without Emotion Fifty years ago some young MIT scholars delivered a radical notion to the world. They proposed that it is possible to scientifically study precise mechanisms and processes of human thought. The movement was the catalyst for many fields of study. Earlier this week, Harvard University celebrated this intellectual achievement with a symposium featuring some of the original MIT scholars. Now after a generation of productive research, a newer paradigm shift is taking place. Science is discovering that it is our emotions that make thought possible, not the other way around. We simply cannot understand thought without understanding emotion. This is a radical departure from the traditional perspective, which used to regard emotion as the antagonist of reason. "Because we subscribed to this false ideal of rational, logical thought, we diminished the importance of everything else," said Marvin Minsky, a professor at MIT and pioneer of artificial intelligence. "Seeing our emotions as distinct from thinking was really quite disastrous." Cognitive psychologists have traditionally downplayed the importance of emotions to the thought process. "They regarded emotions as an artifact of subjective experience, and thus not worthy of investigation," said Joseph LeDoux, a neuroscientist at NYU. In all fairness to cognitive psychologists, the field of cognitive psychology has always been criticized for being too “soft” of a science. The effect is that cognitive scientists have always felt compelled to “harden” the science up with logical facts, and less study of emotion and behavior. Ironically, “feelings” ARE the new “fact”, and the main determination of the choices we make- not logic. In fact, the entire “science of thinking” was approached somewhat backwards right from the start. Perhaps, this was partly due to the field being largely dominated by men who suspected (in true Vulcan fashion) that “feeling” is inferior to logic. In fact, as I was summarizing these findings for this post, my husband called to tell me about a problem he is having with a coworker. I asked him if he had talked to the individual to find out how he was feeling. My husband replied, “Men don’t talk about feelings. We talk about facts.” Of course, that doesn’t apply to all men. Antonio Damasio, a neuroscientist at USC has played an important role in establishing the importance of studying emotion. Before Damasio came onto the scene, most cognitive scientists assumed that emotions only interfered with rational thought. It was assumed that a person without any emotions would be a better thinker, since their “cortical computer” could process information without the hindrance of emotion. Damasio’s research challenged the assumption by showing that people who have suffered brain injuries which prevent them from perceiving their own feelings, are ineffective decision-makers. Most would spend hours deliberating over irrelevant details, such as where to eat lunch. Damasio’s research, among many other studies, is revealing that emotion is what enables us to make up our minds. It is pure reason- not feeling- that is the true hindrance to decision making. So take that, Mr. Spock! link http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2007/...ns_nixed_y.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Interesting read. This may truly explain why religion has such a grip on mankind. Furthermore, it may explain why Christians have been getting away with their high and mighty philosophy act for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I'm reminded of some of the self-help books I've read by Nathaniel Branden. He was a protege of Ayn Rand. But in his books he mentions how Miss Rand deprecated emotion, while Branden thought emotions were important and should be valued and examined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 In the same vein, I recently read a book that claim emotions are responsible for dreams, not the other way around. During REM sleep, the hippocampus throws out an emotion to be dealth with, and our "reasoning" minds come up with a storyline to explain the emotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I am reading this apologist book called "Why I am a Christian" and I read this article "Why I am not an Atheist" by William Lane Craig. He made the bold assertion that the Jews before Christ's time actually believed that God was not merely some abstract concept, but a living, breathing interactive being that affected everything it created. He quoted a Bible verse about how we are supposed to think with our hearts and let God in. I've always assumed that the heart was the emotional center of the person, but now with this news that logic is derived out of emotion, philosophers like W.L. Craig will that say scientific discovery is proof positive that humans were designed by God and that atheism is truly a false belief to have. :wtf: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yrth Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Jeremy Neu has written that emotions are thoughts, and other cognitivist philosophers have taken similar 'thought-based' approaches to understanding emotions for a long time now. Glad to see that the neuroscience is finally catching up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted November 10, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted November 10, 2008 All I know is that if I based my actions on emotion and feelings rather than rational thought, I'd buy lottery tickets rather than pay the mortgage because I feel lucky today. I'd get slapped by half the women I meet. I'd eat chocolate and pizza until I weighed 300 pounds. I'd try to hurt the driver that cut me off, hopefully kill them. I'd send Sally Struthers all the money I had left after buying lottery tickets. Emotions allow me to enjoy or regret my rational choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexton Blake Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Our brain works on levels that we are not aware of. We can come to a decision and do something without conscious thought on the subject. We are also aware that we can work out problems without thinking about them, suddenly knowing an answer. If like Spock you just stick to the surface thoughts of the brain and work everything out, it won't work out because you'll miss the deep stuff and because the world is not black and white where every factor can be known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Vulcans do have emotions. Always have. They just have extreme control over them. If you watched ST6: The Undiscovered Country, Spock was clearly pissed when it was revealed who the on-board traitor was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Vulcans do have emotions. Always have. They just have extreme control over them. If you watched ST6: The Undiscovered Country, Spock was clearly pissed when it was revealed who the on-board traitor was. Not to mention that Surak's teachings did not state "lack of emotion", but "mastery of emotions". Self-control over oneself is never a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Vulcans do have emotions. Always have. They just have extreme control over them. If you watched ST6: The Undiscovered Country, Spock was clearly pissed when it was revealed who the on-board traitor was. Come to think of it, I was a fan of Star Trek: Voyager in my younger days. I remember when Tuvok flew off the handle after his emotions floated to the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Vulcans do have emotions. Always have. They just have extreme control over them. If you watched ST6: The Undiscovered Country, Spock was clearly pissed when it was revealed who the on-board traitor was. Come to think of it, I was a fan of Star Trek: Voyager in my younger days. I remember when Tuvok flew off the handle after his emotions floated to the surface. Sounds like the episode where he melded with a psychopathic Betazoid named Lon Suder. Ever watch DS9? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Vulcans do have emotions. Always have. They just have extreme control over them. If you watched ST6: The Undiscovered Country, Spock was clearly pissed when it was revealed who the on-board traitor was. Come to think of it, I was a fan of Star Trek: Voyager in my younger days. I remember when Tuvok flew off the handle after his emotions floated to the surface. Sounds like the episode where he melded with a psychopathic Betazoid named Lon Suder. Ever watch DS9? It's been a while, but I did at one time. My favorite characters were Odo...and maybe Sisco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted November 11, 2008 Author Share Posted November 11, 2008 I am reading this apologist book called "Why I am a Christian" and I read this article "Why I am not an Atheist" by William Lane Craig. He made the bold assertion that the Jews before Christ's time actually believed that God was not merely some abstract concept, but a living, breathing interactive being that affected everything it created. He quoted a Bible verse about how we are supposed to think with our hearts and let God in. I've always assumed that the heart was the emotional center of the person, but now with this news that logic is derived out of emotion, philosophers like W.L. Craig will that say scientific discovery is proof positive that humans were designed by God and that atheism is truly a false belief to have. :wtf: But not if you feel differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Vulcans do have emotions. Always have. They just have extreme control over them. If you watched ST6: The Undiscovered Country, Spock was clearly pissed when it was revealed who the on-board traitor was. Haven't you seen how ape-shit they go when it's time for Ponn Farr? I think they can only go 7 years at a time keeping it under control before they snap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 I am reading this apologist book called "Why I am a Christian" and I read this article "Why I am not an Atheist" by William Lane Craig. He made the bold assertion that the Jews before Christ's time actually believed that God was not merely some abstract concept, but a living, breathing interactive being that affected everything it created. He quoted a Bible verse about how we are supposed to think with our hearts and let God in. I've always assumed that the heart was the emotional center of the person, but now with this news that logic is derived out of emotion, philosophers like W.L. Craig will that say scientific discovery is proof positive that humans were designed by God and that atheism is truly a false belief to have. :wtf: But not if you feel differently. Pretending to be William Lane Craig... But I don't feel differently, I still feel that God exists, therefore this enough logical room for me to believe that God exists. Therefore, I will use this 'hole-y' argument as another proof of God like I use the kalam cosmological argument even though Victor Stenger handed me my rear end after I used it in another debate with him. I must be a knuckleheaded sociopath that doesn't know when to quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Vulcans do have emotions. Always have. They just have extreme control over them. If you watched ST6: The Undiscovered Country, Spock was clearly pissed when it was revealed who the on-board traitor was. Haven't you seen how ape-shit they go when it's time for Ponn Farr? I think they can only go 7 years at a time keeping it under control before they snap. Actually, IIRC, it is only Spock or other half Vulcan/Humans that go 7 years between mating. A "pure" Vulcan can go 15 years in between sessions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Vulcans do have emotions. Always have. They just have extreme control over them. If you watched ST6: The Undiscovered Country, Spock was clearly pissed when it was revealed who the on-board traitor was. Haven't you seen how ape-shit they go when it's time for Ponn Farr? I think they can only go 7 years at a time keeping it under control before they snap. Tuvok I understand You are a Vulcan man! You have just gone without For seven years, about! Paris please find a away To load a hypospray! I will give you the sign, Just aim for his behind! Hormones are raging! Synapses blazing! It's all so veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery Illogical! Illogical! Illllllllllllllllllllllllllogical! (VOY: Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Vulcans do have emotions. Always have. They just have extreme control over them. If you watched ST6: The Undiscovered Country, Spock was clearly pissed when it was revealed who the on-board traitor was. Haven't you seen how ape-shit they go when it's time for Ponn Farr? I think they can only go 7 years at a time keeping it under control before they snap. Actually, IIRC, it is only Spock or other half Vulcan/Humans that go 7 years between mating. A "pure" Vulcan can go 15 years in between sessions. No, it's 7 years for all Vulcans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Hmm, don't know where I got that from then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 Hmm, don't know where I got that from then. Must have been from one of the apocryphal sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Broke Free Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 In the same vein, I recently read a book that claim emotions are responsible for dreams, not the other way around. During REM sleep, the hippocampus throws out an emotion to be dealth with, and our "reasoning" minds come up with a storyline to explain the emotion. I had never consider this, but it just FEELS so right! Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 I think emotion can give us very important information about what’s going on. For instance, if I experience the emotion of surprise then it’s probably because events have differed from what I anticipated would be the case. That’s important to know in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 I think emotion can give us very important information about what’s going on. For instance, if I experience the emotion of surprise then it’s probably because events have differed from what I anticipated would be the case. That’s important to know in my opinion. I agree. Not to mention that emotions give us that "fight or flight" adrenaline that helps us overcome situations...of course they may also be to our detriment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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