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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
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    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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    • older
      Great tactic. My sister says, "Just smile and nod." Eventually, as they don't get any feedback, they will give up.
    • Crithin8
      You got me studying…   Image: Old Testament, Strongs h6754-selem: 17 times in 15 verses.  Seems literal of image, representative figure, or a vain image. I don’t think the argument of a mental likeness, ie attributes, applies to Genesis 1:27 from the other uses of the word.    Image: New Testament, Strongs g1594-eikon: image, figure, likeness used 23 times in 20 verses.  Seems mostly a literal image but also has some likeness applied and suggests some likeness of attributes.    My opinion of Paul’s opinion is that it is just that, Paul has an opinion. Paul writes: “follow me”, “remember me”, “keep the traditions” before making his argument. Then concludes “we have no such customs.” His argument reaches into the Hebrew texts for supporting evidence. It looked like Paul was grabbing at ammunition to win at or pick a side in a debate.    Rhetorical or Socratic I duuno about the image of God. Maybe something along the lines of self attribution. Probably relating to primitive societal hierarchies.    But if we are causing the Paulians to kick against the pricks:   -Paul, being the  physically raucous persecutor converted, seems to have held on to his pugnacious former image within some of his intellectually raucous and contentious writings. “Let her be shorn,” bah! Really? Appeal to emotion fallacy.   -And for the image of a Biblical God that doesn’t author confusion there is a a lot of confusion coming from apologist. Maybe apologist should apologize for the logical fallacies and lack of objective reasoning that inhibits them from seeing the historical writings for what they are.   -And for fun. Why does the Bible tell me to love my wife as my own body and in another place tell me to want her to cover her head when she prays while I do not? If I love her as my own body then I would want her head to not be covered like mine?   Or a serious note I think it was Daniel Goleman’s book Social Intelligence that I found the idea of a division of power that is agreed on
    • Casualfanboy16
      Yeah at this point I don't really even bother to argue back because I know it's gonna just cause more problems. At least I'm getting wiser in that respect lol. I just stand/sit there not saying much or anything at all and let it pass. All the passive-aggressive comments and stuff, and the whole attitude that finding others that would support my sexuality, whether it be online or irl, being treated as bad by them  is just exhausting to confront anymore. I just don't have the mental energy to even think about engaging with it because if I do, it usually backfires.
    • Casualfanboy16
      Yeah I suppose I could do that!
    • moxieflux66
      Precisely! 😉   Exactly! 🤗
    • AnonSan
      My early 20s and part of my mid-20s dealt with lot of growing pains as I worked to establish autonomy and distance myself from the version of me my parents envisioned in their 'perfect' Christian life. Over the past decade, they’ve gradually eased off some of their Christian™️, but that process almost exhausted my emotional health, as I had to fight for my sense of self-worth and relationship with my husband. There is some hope that one day my parents will genuinely take accountability for their actions, without hiding behind their prayers or my older sibling to serve as their 'unofficial' spokesperson in justifying their ignorance. At the same time, however, have already accepted the fact that this won't happen anytime soon or never at all.    @Casualfanboy16: Familial conflicts are very common in early-mid 20s which you will experience a lot of highs and lows, so you're definitely not alone in this. Don't expect much from anyone and just mentally turn off/mute their BS noise like television, when needed at this point.  Keep focusing on your health and shake off the criticisms from your parents that were meant to 'psych' you out. 
    • moxieflux66
      Maybe you can record an audio file on your cell phone when you suddenly have ideas for creative writing? Or any other form of creation you think of. Sometimes ideas or feelings disappear when you don't give them enough attention.    And don't forget to smile a lot! 😊
    • Casualfanboy16
      Honestly I need to be more consistent with writing in a journal. I keep forgetting that mine exists 💀💀💀   My Mom would do something similar. She would blame one of my friends for "influencing me" to act this way, and literally forbid me from hanging out with her unless my other friend was there. She was literally disappointed because when I first came out to her she got irritated that I told other people before them, and she was also upset that my two friends I first came out to accepted me. Kinda weird, but that was a while ago.
    • jedi
      Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about CREATING yourself. I would try a bunch of new things and discover what works for you! There's a countless amount of hobbies to discover! Some that I like are drum circles, sewing, and the local batting cages. Telescopes, bird-watching binoculars, yoga, making kombucha, The Nightmare Before Christmas decorations, etc.    Link to BookShop on Leaving Christianity   MEETUP.com   EventBrite
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    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      This is my 666th post, I think. What should I do for this momentous occasion?
       
      edit: fuck nevermind..... status updates don't count as posts... cringe
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    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      If I go to Hell I want my preferred method of torture to be spun around and cooked like a silly little rotisserie chicken. 🍗
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