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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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    • Casualfanboy16
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  • Recent Posts

    • TheRedneckProfessor
      I received the holy spirit, was baptized with the holy spirit, filled with the power of the holy spirit, spoke in tongues, prophesied, and exhibited several gifts and fruits of the holy spirit.  I'm here now.
    • AnonSan
      I definitely relate to the struggles of being kind to myself and being deserving love and respect. We, and many of us here, were conditioned to hate our "fallen nature" that we were expected nothing but to have a toxic co-dependent relationship with Christianity. Breaking this mindset is really tough. This guilt-trip manipulation implemented among church institutions purposefully deprives much physical, mental, spiritual, and emotional well-being to solely benefit their self-serving agendas, which any room for self-care often becomes non-existent. There’s nothing healthy about how it deprives us of the chance to care for ourselves.   Despite this, you already have started the process of reaching out to people in real life that the Christian bubble condemns. That initiative is already such a huge step forward, especially in your current living situation! Life is already difficult as is because unexpected shit happens all the time. However, as long as you surround yourself with caring people willing to foster the commitment, patience, and effort in building relationships, then relationships will pay off in the long term and prove themselves that they are friends worth keeping. When things don't go as planned, it's okay to treat yourself and also see this as another, spare opportunity in completing important errands that will benefit in the long term. Life is too short that the last thing you want to do is squandering in misery leads into further setbacks.   It's hard to see, even for me, that we must keep moving forward and forgive ourselves of our past. Instead, learn from them and acknowledge such events for what they were and use them as stepping stones for growth. Our past doesn't define who we are, but how we choose to move forward does. Embrace the lessons learned, but don't let past mistakes or pain hold you back from becoming the person you want to be. Healing comes with acceptance, and progress comes with persistence.      
    • Casualfanboy16
      For the longest time, I've been struggling with this aspect of myself, and I'm at a point where I'm tired of it. It's so hard to be kind to myself. To treat myself with love and respect. So much of that 'denial of the self' stuff Christianity often perpetuates has long affected the way I perceive myself. I often think I'm undeserving of love, kindness, or even niceness. I berate myself a lot, even for minor and insignificant things.   I guess it also doesn't help either that I haven't had the chance to be around people that support me irl too much. I was supposed to go to a Pride-related event on Friday, but I ended up not going because my Aunt and Uncle who I never see visited over the weekend, so I felt obligated to stay because I'd feel bad. Ended up going to a play later that weekend though and missing when they left tho so like oof.   Although, I did text some of the Pride place people and I'm slowly getting a group chat going, so I'm hoping being around more supportive people will give me a more positive outlook on life and an ability to be at least a teensy bit kinder to myself or even help me learn to love myself more. A lot of it still has to come from me though, because I am prone to degrading, being nasty to, or downright hating myself. Hopefully we can plan something soon, but one of them got sick bad, so I have to wait   I know I have to do most of the work. I'm not relying entirely on others to do the self-love for me because that's like insane lol. Just thinking like having extra support with people who understand me, or have similar experiences to me, will help me through this.
    • mwc
      It *did* have a gender at one point and it was female following the characterization of Wisdom in the OT but it seems that was tossed out given the argument that a female can't get a female pregnant.  That sort of implies it's male now but really the whole idea of gender has been dropped since it's no longer female.  I guess it's "male" just like the rest of god is male?  I guess no one asked how a spirit, male or female, knocks anyone up?  To me if a ghost can pull that off then any sort of ghost could probably do it but I'm no expert on ghost sex like these folks.        The purpose of the holy ghost, especially in the early church, was that it was the driving force behind the church.  Jesus left and the holy spirit came and powered the whole affair.  The whole of the book of Acts is essentially telling you how the spirit powered things.  It tells you how the water baptism is no good but the new baptism of the spirit is what you want and makes things work.  Basically, the spirit gets inside you, changes you, and gets you to work the right way.  If everyone, everywhere, allowed this to happen the world would work correctly.        I forget the exact verse but it does say that.  To blaspheme, in that time period, would be to say that your king couldn't do something that he was supposedly able to do.  So to blaspheme the spirit isn't to just say "Fuck the holy spirit" but more like "The holy spirit is not actually able to change hearts to the will of god."  I don't know if my example is spot-on but I imagine it's in the ball park.  Just like taking the lord's name in vain is really more along the lines of saying god speaks through you, and then speaking on behalf of god, as opposed to saying "God damnit."  People misuse the terms.  I imagine it might be because the folks who like to speak on behalf of their gods are the same ones that take issue with naughty words.        I scanned the thread before posting and I feel this was a pre-emptive lie. 😛             mwc  
    • Weezer
      On a serious note, it has been my observation that those who truly believe they have recieved the holy spirit (more than just a short period of time) never give up the belief.  Some may have done so, but I am not aware of it.  Whatever it is, it seems to grab them, and doesn't let go.     Hopefully an authentic Christian will come along and expain it to us.  From what I have seen, it seems they just KNOW they have recieved it . 
    • moxieflux66
      Two of my favorite subjects, Mormons and xitan swingers, have arrived at Hulu!    Inside the Viral Mormon Sex Scandal That Sparked a New Hulu Reality Series | Vanity Fair   Don't forget to tune in! 🤗
    • moxieflux66
      Can I get your shrink's number? If he/she approves of beer, well, I'll pray to her/him rather than Joe! 😁
    • older
      My shrink said I should finish what I start. So far I've finished three beers and I feel better already.
    • Weezer
      Very likely!!  😁
    • moxieflux66
      I'm not sure but I'll pray to Joe tonight and see what he says! 🤣
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      This is my 666th post, I think. What should I do for this momentous occasion?
       
      edit: fuck nevermind..... status updates don't count as posts... cringe
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    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      If I go to Hell I want my preferred method of torture to be spun around and cooked like a silly little rotisserie chicken. 🍗
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