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  • Clubs

  • Our picks

    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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    • walterpthefirst
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    • walterpthefirst
      You can't have it as simple as you want, Ed.    I'm sorry, but you asked about my proposition concerning free will and that, as I've explained earlier, is based upon what the apostle Paul says in the Bible.  Because I'm playing Devil's Advocate I'm arguing from Paul's position - not my own.  His position IS a religious one.  So, if you want me to explain my proposition to you, it has to be done on his terms.  Not yours and not mine, but Paul's.   His position is that we are, in effect, physically bound by god because we have first been spiritually bound by him.  This is because he believed that humans are both physical and spiritual, with the spiritual ruling the physical.  And for him, a physical human body without a spirit was just a corpse.  We can see this in his own words, when he compare Adam with Jesus.   1 Corinthian 15 : 44 - 47.   If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.  45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.  46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.  47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.   In verse 45 Paul is referring back to Genesis 2 : 7.   Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.   When god created Adam he was physically complete but just an empty shell until god breathed the spirit of life into him.  Without an animating spirit he was nothing but a corpse.  By understanding this we can see what Paul means about god putting us all into spiritual bondage.     If our spirits are bound into a state of disobedience by god then our bodies, which obey the dictates of our spirits, are just as bound.  Nothing visible and nothing tangible can be seen or detected.  There are no physical chains binding us.  But we are just as bound as if there were.     I hope this makes sense.  Please let me know if anything is difficult or confusing and I will try and rectify that.     Thank you,   Walter.                        
    • moxieflux66
      Dr. Gary Slutkin:      Here's a link to the full article:    “Brain flaws”: Understanding MAGA as an epidemic disease | Salon.com    
    • moxieflux66
      Here's what our tax dollars go toward: educating our children about the Constitution (and PBS):  (for those of you who can read) 😉   https://www.salon.com/2024/10/13/citizen-nation-shows-theres-hope-for-democracy-and-our-future-in-championing-civics-in-schools/    
    • Edgarcito
      Ouch that has to hurt a little lol
    • Edgarcito
      Free will, thx.
    • TheRedneckProfessor
    • webmdave
      I am free to decline your inquiry. 😘
    • Edgarcito
      And why are you chiming in after all these years Dave.  
    • Edgarcito
      Well, you got it right the first time Dave....we are constrained physically. But then your top intellectual chimes in with, that we are free in any other aspect.     So then I ask what aspect Walt.  Then he goes into some dive into Christianity and it's only in that context...then we get lost in Walt's question and answer session.   So if you'd like to play given you're the captain...   Even though we are physically constrained, are we bound mentally.  Are we capable of absolute thinking.   Thanks.
    • webmdave
      I was being purposefully pedantic, (to be constrained implies the possibility of having those  constraints removed) in order to see if 1) Ed would show the slightest willingness to understand my pedantic point, 2) to what lengths Ed would go to defend his eccentric positions, and 3), if after an  obvious  provocation, in the spirit of Christian love he would refrain from ad hominems.    This commercial break is now over. Please continue the show!  
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    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      This is my 666th post, I think. What should I do for this momentous occasion?
       
      edit: fuck nevermind..... status updates don't count as posts... cringe
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    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      If I go to Hell I want my preferred method of torture to be spun around and cooked like a silly little rotisserie chicken. 🍗
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